CKnapp3

Def, is Mary the Mother of God? Yes or No?

I can tell by that response that you are not very well educated. I was referring to John 14:6, the verse you were referring to. I had said that Jesus was speaking of the Word of God, not of himself personally. I could easily make that same identical quote and be just as right on. What? Does that mean salvation can only come by Chuck? NONSENSE! Jesus said "I am the way and the truth and the life". The "way and the truth and the life" is not a who, but a what. And what is the "way and the truth and the life"? The Word of God, of course. Yeah, I know, I know, Jesus is the Word made flesh, you don't have to remind me of that. But that is obviously a figure of speech, just like the "Word is God" is a figure of speech also. My words are me, and your words are you too. Hey, remember the little taunt when we were kids? It goes: "Twinkle, Twinkle, little star, WHAT YOU SAY IS WHAT YOU ARE!" :P--> :D-->

Joseph may not be Jesus' natural father, but Jesus never denied he was the son of Joseph. Mary IS the natural mother of Jesus however, a Jesus that had a beginning. Like I said, you swear by the Son of Mary (who had a beginning and is mortal), and not by the Son of God (who had NO beginning and is IMMORTAL). You acknowledge the divinity of Christ well, but walk more after his human nature. Perhaps you also walk after your own flesh. You have to consider yourself dead in order to really live. Why do you believe in the eternity of sin? Don't you know that it is written "he who is dead is FREE FROM SIN"? Will you ever acknowledge that there will be a time when Hitler will be free from sin? But you talk as if Hitler will be eternally wed to his sin. If that is so, then you will also remain in your sin as well. And so will all of us.

What, and take on a doctrine that says I will not be forgiven? What do you take me for? Stupid? I have repented of the things I need to repent of, and that's hatred towards my fellow man, something I don't think you have quite repented of yourself. Am I being satanic because I have chosen to forgive everyone? If I forgive everyone by Satan, then by whom do you forgive everyone? Are you saying God will not have mercy on us all? Read Romans 11:32. You and I are also judged as unbelievers, in spite of our convictions.

Then that's settled, I am going to heaven, since God also forgives me. What? God is not going to forgive me? But you do? Are you better than God? It is written, "What you bind on earth, I bind in heaven, and what you loose on earth, I shall loose in heaven". Since you have forgiven me Def, you are bound by that decision. I have also forgiven you :)-->, and likewise, I am bound by that decision. Do you even look forward to meeting me in heaven? I do expect to see you there. In fact I expect to see everyone.

I first discovered Dr. Scott after I left TWI also, and I saw him as the closest thing to having "twig on TV". Even much of the music was reminiscient of ROA. At least Scott had a REAL doctor's degree (from Stanford University), more than I can say for the founder of TWI. I have always wondered what Dr. Scott's opinion of VPW was, if he ever had one. Also, though Dr. Scott may have also been self serving like VPW, at least he didn't expect newcomers to contribute to his coffiers. In fact, he insisted only those he taught should contribute. A far cry from VPW. RIP Dr. Scott

What kind of candidates do you support for public office, Def?

It's obvious that they are. Jesus was born of Mary. The Son of God always existed since he is God. Jesus died on the cross. The Son of God is immortal just as his father is. You Def are identifying with a carnal man rather than the spiritual man, which is a great part of your problem.

Def, there are two kinds of people in this world. Your friends, and your enemies. You know doubt have forgiven your friends, but why haven't you forgiven your enemies? The bible says to love your enemies, and to do good unto those who hate you. When you are my enemy, I have done you good. I have assured you of your own salvation. And what thanks do I get for it? You have deliberately rubbed my nose in it. What good have you done me when I am YOUR enemy? NOTHING! You have refused to assure me of my own salvation, but instead have offered this rather ungodly dispute. So between you and I, who is the better person? I am convinced now that you actually hate yourself, so you coulnd't possibly love others. If fact you hate yourself so badly that when I bestow good blessings on you, you just plain reject them. Just like you have rejected Christ. If Christ meant anything to you, you would have been spreading the Gospel, but instead you spread threats of terror if one doesn't toe the line. I have told you once, and I'll tell you again, THAT IS NOT THE GOSPEL! If I say good things by the father of lies, like you charge me with, then by whom do you say good things? Christ has therefore become of none effect by your life and attitude.

Def, if you are trying to .... me off, give yourself a pat on the back, because you are succeeding, you are definitely trying my patience. Give me one good reason why anyone should be denied salvation, and I'll give you 150 reasons why they will be saved! You have the effrontery to tell me that I'm the only one getting angry, yet you are beyond anger, you are just plain MAD! You say you're gonna pray for my soul eh? Are you praying for everyone's soul too? Remember, the prayer of a righteous man avails much. If you pray for everyone's soul and not everyone will be saved, then that shows how unrighteous you were the whole time. After all, God refused to hear your prayers. And as everyone knows (ahem!) God doesn't hear the prayers of sinners. What? You don't pray for everyone's soul? Then you are not doing God's will anyway. Like you said, only those that do God's will shall inherit the kingdom, and you are therefore disqualified from the inheritance by your own standards. :P--> I do see that you are nothing but a pathological liar, which explains why what I say has no effect on you. I don't know what effect Jesus will have on you either. The Pharisees where also liars, but they knew they were liars and therefore they were not pathological like you are. I guess that makes you worse than a Pharisee, yet your righteousness must exceed theirs in order to inherit the Kingdom. Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees. What??? You want to compare ME with a Pharisee???? Give case in point!!!!! In fact I have given you every opportunity to point out to me where I fall short, and so far you have failed to point out my shortcomings. You self-deceptively think my beilef in universal salvation is a shortcoming. That's all you have on me, you have nothing valid on me thus far. Answer this if you will Def, if you had the power to save everyone, would you do so, or would you refuse to save them unless they gave you some kind of allegiance?

YOU DEF are guilty of rank IDOLATRY!!!!! Jesus was not speaking of himself personally, but rather he was speaking in the personification of the Word of God, the same one that says that as all die in Adam, so shall all be made alive in Christ (something you don't agree with, I know). The words "for I am the Word of God" at the end of that sentence should be understood. You are more hung up on the messenger than you are the message. You swear by the son of Mary and Joseph and NOT by the Son of God. Which is greater, the son of Mary and Joseph, or the Son of God which sanctified him? I'm quite sure that nobody is going to live in paradise apart from Christ. Is this what the fuss is all about? Why do you waste your time with such childish disputes?

No $hit??????? And I thought salvation came exculsively through Bugs Bunny???? (Maybe that explains my avitar? ;)--> )

I might as well ask this question for the record, even though it will probably go in one ear and out the other. Def, Why do you call Jesus your Lord but do Satan's bidding? Satan loves it when people are terrified of hell, and you make sure people know that such a place exists. How do you figure that I'm the son of the father of lies? Is the fact that Jesus redeemed mankind and paid for it with his precious blood a lie? Yes, newagers do subscribe to the idea. Does that make it wrong? Sounds like you hate newage people, after all, if they believe it, it must be wrong! But newagers probably don't know exactly how it will come about. They may be unaware of a trial they'll have to go through, and yes perhaps an unpleasant one. I have made this abundantly clear in my posts, but you continue to ignore them. You also ignore the fact that you too will face that same trial. When you go home, you think you are going to be showered with praise. Why do you expect this? I see your heart, and the only reason you don't cheat on your wife, molest children, rob liquor stores, commit murder (though that's kind of an understatement), etc. is because you fear hell. That tells me you are not motivated by love, but by fear of hell. Take away the hell, and you would do just about every one of those sins! WOULDN'T YOU???? So I guess there's something good about hell in a sense: it keeps people like you in check. But leave it to you to use the hell doctrine to spread his own terror, so it actually defeats its own purpose. So your cohorts in crime will continue to be unaffected by the hell teaching and spread their reign of terror on an innocent society. Def, if you have any sense, you'd click on this link below. If Hell Is Real

Are you saying that those God rejecters are going to be happy in their supposed eternal state? Correct me if im wrong, but you do believe those people will be Satan's property for all eternity, right? But you forgot one thing: The bible promises the absolute defeat of Satan and THE END OF HIS EVIL REIGN! Besides, God would be guilty of treason against himself to give any of his creation over to his arch-enemy. As for the non-Christians who would lament that they are being treated wrongfully by being cast into the lake of fire for purification, there's the old saying: "You may hate God for it now, but you will thank him for it later" ;)--> Def, just what do you think the lake of fire is anyway? It is NOT hell. The bible NEVER calls it such. And why do you lament when I tell you that you are going there? Jesus went there, I'm going there, Mark is going there, so is just about everyone! Def, I think you are so in love with your sins that you don't want to be separated from them. You made your sins your "spouse" in effect.

At least my anger is short lived. I get it out of my system, but you try to recharge it. And of course since I'm not God, I can't make things right. Your God's anger seems to last for all eternity, in spite of the biblical promise that his anger is only but for a season! If you maintain your position on this then that is proof that (your) God is a liar. And furthermore, if your God is so damn powerful, why does he have to sentence people to such a horrible fate anyway when he can just transform them into something holy and pleasing to him? Answer: YOUR GOD HAS NO POWER!!!

Kinda puts you between the Devil and The Deep Blue Sea, doesn't it? :)-->

Spoken like a true cynic.

Abigail said: Well, that is the story of my parent's marriage. My parents fought tooth and nail to keep the marriage together, and for what? Because it was God's will as dictated by the (Catholic) Church? Our family was severely dysfunctional as a result of the forced bonding of such "marriage", and needless to say, it ended in a divorce in 1981, after almost 30 years. I was well into my adulthood by then, but I think back and think why the hell didn't they divorce then? I personally feel like a bastard as an end result. After all, it is said that God joins a man and woman in true marriage, and he is infallible. Therefore the marriage is perfect if it was made such. Sure, there will be disputes periodically between spouses, but I don't think it will end in a divorce.

Def sure isn't happy unless he has the last word on everything. It it plain and manifest that Def is motivated by fear rather than love, and he tries to drag others into his private hell. This is why I get steamed. I'm thinking of hapless souls who could be wrongfully agonized by people like Def. If I were to beat Def with a baseball bat, he is so sick and depraved with masochism that he would probably enjoy it. This is why he stirs up the pot of conflict. He is actually looking for a fight, and he loves it when you blast him, so he can say "see, you are angry and IM COOL!" Well believe me, preaching hate is NEVER cool. I believe Def does "turn the other cheek" (in the perverted sense of the term). Def also says God is not into fairness. Fairness and justice work hand in hand. He might as well teach that when God says he's just, he only lied to you. But then Def's god is a liar anyway. Yes, Def's god IS unfair. So Def speaks truthfully of his god. And of course a man is only as good as the god he worships. Like father, like son! Therefore Def is also unfair. A son NEVER talks back to his father does he? But I will talk back to any god who is NOT MY GOD!!!!! Especially when that same god is nothing but sewage. Remember, I'm not the one who initiated this thread. DEF IS!!!!! I personally have better things to do than to argue with narrow-minded people, like sharing the healing gospel with people who need it. Def on the other hand has no gospel, so he likes to scorn those who do. Def is the puke I say he is because he only emulates his god, who is a real puke. Remember, only a sewage god would sentence anyone to eternal torture, and Def has vehemently defended such a god. Notice that Def indeed has not cast any names at me. He must think he is great stuff for that, or at least wants you to think such, but the truth is there is no name he can call me that will hurt me, because I've spent a great deal of my life being called much more hurtful names than what Def could possibly call me. He laments that I call him names. Why?? Doesn't he stand well before his god?? If he stands well before his god, then what should he care what names I call him??? And he wants favors from his god???? Me? READ MY SIG!!!!!! Salvation is clearly a gift, not a reward. As for rewards, if I get any, fine. If I don't, that's fine too. I didn't get too many rewards in this life, so I'm used to it. I conclusion, it's clear that Def fails to take heed to his own beliefs. He fails to take heed to the fact that he will face an angry god if he continues to preach one, and he will be too cowardly to talk back to such a god because he has confessed that he is nobody to talk back to his god. The bible is full of stories of prophets who fought God. I believe Jacob did, AND EVEN WON!!!!! If God refuses to save all, then he has lost my respect, for he in fact lied when he said "I will all men to be saved".* If God cannot save all, then who is he to hold me accountable??? For he HAS NO POWER!!!!!!! * According to VPW, et al., if one part of the bible is a lie, it's ALL A LIE!!!!! And to think I was criticized for calling the bible a bunch of B.S. last year????? I think the records speak for themselves.

Def, I'm not going to continue this charade with you. You are bent on the idea that there is an endless hell and many are going to it. Tell me, are you glad there is a hell? NO? Then why aren't you blasphemeing the God who you believe created it? You want your enemies in hell? NO? Then when you're enemies are in hell, why aren't you criticizing God for sending them there? You ask me who I am to disagree with God. When God says he wills all men to be saved, are you saying I disagree with that? And yes, will and want are synoymous, also with desire as well. And God gets what God wants, wills or desires. I disagree with YOUR God, yes. YOUR God doesn't love everybody. My step-brother, who is mentally retarded has more love than YOUR God. Is he wrong??? Are you saying that he only does so because he's handicapped??? WE should be so handicapped!!!!!!! You question me about Hilter not doing God's will. How do you figure??? Did it ever occur to you that God used Hitler to stage the holocaust against the Jews because they have turned their backs of God one more time, like they have done often throughout history? True, Hitler will not inherit The Kingdom, I agree with you there. But Hitler will live in paradise. And so are you in spite of the fact that you are not doing God's will yourself. And furthermore, should you inherit The Kingdom, who/what do you expect your subjects to be????? Worms????? What???? You want to charge me with not doing God's will? How do you figure??? But if I don't do God's will, I'm going to be just like you, not inheriting the kingdom. But I'm not too concerned about that anyway (read my signature ;)--> ). I'm not motivated by any rewards to do what I do. I don't preach universal salvation to get some kind of favor from my God. You say universal salvation just gives people a cheap excuse to sin???? Sinners can find an excuse to sin under ANY belief system. So what's YOUR excuse for sin??? Seems like in spite of your rejection of universal salvation, you still sin like a truck driver. I say your belief system encourages sin more than mine does. Without hell, there's no fear of death, and without fear of death, criminals would have a hard time doing their evil deeds. Think about it! A robber for instance trusts in his victim's fear of death to comply with his commands. Just think of what would happen if I were to hold somebody up at gunpoint and demand their money, only for that person to be unafraid and may even tell me to go ahead and shoot. I would be befuddled. Def, I do understand your rejection of universal salvation though. 30 years ago, if you would have told me my enemies were going to be saved in spite of themselves, I would have been deeply offended. I wanted to see my enemies get the worst things that could happen, including eternal torment! But what I didn't realize is that I'm going to be subject to the same judgements that I have judged my enemies. You must think you have some sort of secure shield protecting you, so you think it's safe to spew out that evil poison that you spit. If you don't repent of your eternal torment teachings and beliefs, theoretically you could find yourself facing the very same fate that you have warned your enemies of. You say that purgatory is not a biblical doctrine? What do you think the lake of fire is? The same lake of fire that YOU are going to! Mark S. has shown you that the Greek words that translate fire and brimstone mean exactly the purifying presence of God. Why are you oblivious to that? What??? You're not going to the lake of fire??? Then you can forget about meeting God or Jesus for that matter. In fact, theoretically you will be in the absence of God (notice I said THEORETICALLY? God is omnipresent, so you are NEVER going to be in His absence). Without going to the lake of fire, you will be in fact cast into the outer darkness. You say my gospel has many adherents in non-Christian circles, ones that actually hate Christ. Give me a case in point. Besides, I say that YOU hate Christ in spite of what you would like people to believe contrawise. I have shared Christ with you and you rejected it, so tell me more. You haven't shared Christ with anyone, you only told them what Jesus COULD do for them. THAT is NOT the Gospel!!! Perhaps it's not time for you to know the deeply spirtual things of God, so you are blind to these tremendous truths. This is all I'm going to say on this matter to you Def, as you no doubt want to keep this charade going. And you were not being honest with me because you said you were not going to address me anymore since I "don't play nice".

Steve, no offense taken :)-->. Besides I guard my heart with the breastplate of righteousness, so I didn't take what you said personally since I believe you didn't mean it to be. You only said that what I was saying would only harden Def, but I also believe God has a tendancy to harden people's hearts too. And perhaps on God's part it's deliberate. In my case it was more an accident. But believe me, I've dealt with people much worse than Def on the Usenet forums.

Well, if you're not offended then what's the need for the apology? Else I would just assume publicly apologize to you.

So what do you want for that, a butter cookie? So now you say I'm full of hate eh? How do you figure? How can you separate yourself from an omnipresent God? David said that If he were to make his bed in the grave, God would be there too. Who am I to Judge? Someone who judges with sound judgement. I have not given you any judgement that I cannot handle myself. Also THERE IS NO BEAM IN MY EYE. And guess what??? I see NOBODY with a mote in their eye, but I do see a lot of people with beams in their own eyes telling me to take the one out of mine. And answer me this if you will: Would you be able to handle God sentencing YOU to eternal torment? You should never impose judgements you yourself cannot handle. That is why we are advised not to judge and to cast the beam out of our eyes. While we are commanded "not to judge", we are also just as commanded to "judge with righteous judgements". So Def, just what righteous judgements did you impose today? So how do you figure I'm a son of Satan? I asked you this question: Your answer: So? Don't give this "is this how Jesus talked?" crap. Jesus told the Pharisees that they were "open sepulchers, filled with dead men's bones". He also called them "a generation of vipers!" So Jesus also swore, cussed, and got angry at the religious filth of his day, and subsequently called them names too. So I see you as just a descendant of that trash. So you consider the doctrine of Universal Salvation a false doctrine. What is YOUR idea of love??? Torturing people forever??? Are you sadistic as well? And you probably don't even know what the sin of Sodom & Gomorrah is. Most people think it was sexual immorality, but that was a relatively minor offense. Yep, just like the coward I say you are, you are going to run away. If you are so right, then this is what you should expect ME to be doing. So go ahead, give up. And to think I was in fact tempted to give up, but Mark actually convinced me to continue with this thread. Thanks for your encouragement Mark :)--> Can't take the name calling??? Then why don't you call me names? Or better yet, why do you set yourself up for this?? Oh yes, you did call me Satan, didn't you? So you in fact lied when you said you called me no names. Be seeing you around :)-->

Your bible doesn't support the argument that death seals your fate, and that repentenance at that point is useless on the grounds that once you die it's too late. Why do you keep stressing that baseless argument?

You said it Def! And because you believe in this hell, the atrocity of your own sins against God's character have definitely been magnified!!!