johniam

Whatever goes around comes around, I guess. Tony LaRussa blew off a Stones concert in San Francisco last month to try to court AJ Burnett into signing with the Cardinals. Didn't happen, so then they ask Matt Morris to give the Cardinals a "home team discount" and sign with them. How 2 faced can you get? So Morris signs with....San Francisco!!! I don't think the Cardinals will win 100 games in 2006.

Raf: Ahithophel was Bathsheba's grandfather. He made sure everybody knew. Why do you think Absalom's rebellion was so successful?

Oakspear: quote:...and of course it's not arrogant to think you have the nature of God and his (or her) dealings with man all figured out Not at all. Well, not ALL figured out, but what is revealed is revealed. Is it arrogant to think you have your father's genetic contribution? His nature? Her????? God's a her????? Man, you need some serious remedial bible teaching.

Wordwolf I think in the first post you mean Howard and Don W, not uncle Harry, made trustees. Uncle Harry died Oct of that year. But that was my era. I took pfal in Jan of 77 and went wow that same year. Wow year wasn't bad; we were in a small college town in MO and we were the only wows ever sent there. Hmm. But what happened there pretty much stayed there. We didn't move the word that great. The next 2 yrs though felt like the whole world was out to get us. Jonestown gave the USA cult as a household word, and there was a lot of pressure to be in or out. I'm glad it wasn't like that when I was first going to twig. The next year, 80/81, things seemed to lighten up a bit. The STL area ran a pfal class with 37 new students in it and we grew from 7 twigs to 21. Well, I've passed the year limitation on the thread title, but in retrospect, that 2 year period was disturbing. I mean, getting a 6 month supply of grain food and being told not to have any less than 1/2 tank of gas at all times? Being told that stringing chairs for a meeting was life or death? That was a lot of pressure.

The last twig cordo I had thought I listened to too much rock and roll so he buys me George Strait's and Tanya Tucker's greatest hits.

You bet your *** I want you to continue. As for the date, I only know that CG read POP to the corps on Wed April 23, 1986. Could that be the "last Wednesday" he referred to? I'm told that CG intended for maybe 10 people max to read/hear the contents of it, but LCM allegedly blabbed it to enough people that many knew about it in a short time. I was on the field and didn't hear about it till a month or so after the '86 ROA.

quote: I've heard one person in TWI about 20 years ago say that if Ghandi wasn't born again, and if Hitler was, that despite what respective good/evil they might have done, Hitler would be enjoying heaven, and Ghandi would be frying in the fiery depths of hell, and that's just the way God would have it; too bad, so sad, deal with it! Rev. 21:4 - And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain; for the former things are all passed away. Too good to be true? I recently read the Reader's Digest interview with Tom Cruise. He said he thought it was beyond arrogance to think we're the only ones, that there's nothing out there (on other planets). Yet somehow it's not arrogant to think there's no God? Go figure.

Garth: quote: And there are folks (more and more I might add) who have gotten sick and tired of your particular rendition of 'His ways are higher than our ways' method (read: copout), and manipulating bible verses to back it up, of justifying and sanctifying what would be otherwise regarded as abusive behavior towards people, be it in the TWI context, or in wider religious contexts in general. I had a history prof once who sternly warned our class that if any one of us got a D in his class that it would be on our record and would follow us wherever we go. Like it's the end of the world if I get a D in a community college class. Well, turn it around. You say you are an atheist, but you believed Romans 10:9 once and you spoke in tongues and that's going to be on YOUR record like forEVER! So what are you gonna do if this turns out to be true? Are you going to get before God and tell Him no thanks I don't want eternal life because you let Wierwille get away with all that stuff and your eternal life isn't good enough for me. Even stupidity at that level will not prevent you from having eternal life like it did Judas. Sorry. I understand how you and others want VP to get payback for what he did, but this IS, after all, the grace administration. If you allow grace to benefit you, you have to allow it to benefit VP as well. If you throw out grace altogether, you may feel good temporarily in your bitterness, but you also put yourself in the precarious position of having to be justified by your own righteousness. Good luck. Why not just enjoy what life you have left.

This past week saw 3 days in a row of negative anniversaries. Dec 6 is the date of the Rolling Stones concert the movie Gimme Shelter was made from where 4 people died and Hell's Angels who were hired to guard the stage beat up several people. Dec 7 is of course Pearl Harbor, and Dec 8 is Lennon's assassination. I recognized 2 of the 3 by watching my copy of the Rolling Stones Rock and Roll Circus which has John Lennon in it. For awhile now I have wondered if Jagger had anything to do with Lennon's death. I read a book once called Up and Down with the Rolling Stones by a Tony something who was Keith Richard's bodyguard and heroin dealer. Although the book says nothing about Jagger having anything to do with Lennon's death, it does paint a desperate picture of Mick's frustration with having to compete with the Beatles. Seemingly without effort, the Beatles always outdid the Stones. There's motive. His money is his means, and his opportunity was that he had an apartment right around the corner from Lennon at that Dakotas place. That could allow Mick to have known Lennon's comings and goings. Also, there's a brief conversation between Jagger and Lennon immediately before Lennon performs on the Rock and Roll Circus that is a little weird. I will always wonder about this.

Isaiah 55:7-9 - Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the Lord, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon. For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. Rascal you don't think that God's justice is different than man's justice? What are you gonna do if God's justice isn't as good as yours? You gonna relentlessly slander Him too? quote: And you wonder why some call themselves atheists. It's out of your hands, Garth. Get over it.

Angel: All rise! God: Next case. devil: People versus Wierwille, your honor; plagiarism! God: Bail? Jesus Christ: Motion to dismiss, your honor; This man is a born again believer. These charges have nothing to do with righteousness. God: Motion granted. Case dismissed!

I was recently made aware of a neo prog band called Spock's Beard. A friend sent two of their tapes and they reminded me of new material from Yes, Genesis, ELP, Gentle Giant, even Supertramp. Not bad stuff.

quote: I would submit that a commitment wasn't made to God...a commitment was made to a perverted image of God taught by TWI. And when those commitments were made in order to grow and develop into an image that is worthy of that perverted TWI image of God, you might never measure up. Keep in mind that TWI rescued many of us from a perverse image of a wrathful God who'll send you to hell for things like smoking, drinking, dope, masturbating, etc. Many churches still promote this image of God. LCM might have tried to scare people but that's not the TWI I remember.

quote: Geer's refusal to accept something just because Wierwille said it is something I always admired about him. Like I said, it's just plain healthy. Nobody disputes that the catholic church has power, but they've had the same doctrine for 1600 yrs and clearly their priority is church first, peoples' lives second. Even in non biblical belief systems people need their space. Let's compare the I Ching with astrology: I don't know who wrote what's in those I Ching hexagrams but here they sit. They say the same things they said thousands of yrs ago when they were written. What you throw is what you get. By contrast, an astrologer, once informed as to your date and time of birth, has a lot more play in what he/she could tell you. Even Hitler, in his introductory remarks to "Mein Kamph" practically apologized for writing it saying that great political or religious movements depend more on charismatic leaders than written documentation. There's a catholic church in STL, St. Stanislaus, which is at odds with the arch bishop. He won't allow them access to the sacraments or something and the whole church including their new priest won't back down and are being threatened with excommunication. The arch bishop is probably going to win and it's all about the rules, no scandal or anything. I'm following the story from afar off, but nuking an entire church just because of some rule seems like an unnecessary power play from where I look, yet the last thing those people would consider is not being catholic any more.

I admit I was indifferent. That video of him singing "Imagine" while Yoko opens the curtains is a classic example of socialist hypocrisy. He says "Imagine no possessions, I wonder if you can." Well, gee, John. Maybe I could if I wasn't watching you wearing expensive clothes, playing an expensive piano, in an expensively furnished room, in an expensive building, on expensivbe land. As an artist, he was great. George taught him how to play the guitar. He got the most out of what talent he had. I'll give him that.

Raf: Like I just told Mike, I'm probably not the best person to ask about CG. I don't know if the leaders of the fellowship I attend are like those elsewhere, and I don't yet receive any tapes or written materials from CG, but the fellowship has been a pleasant surprise.

I'm not trying to defend or condemn anybody with this. It's intended to be a general put-it-in-perspective statement. I know nothing about VPs family environment, but I've heard several horror stories about my own family on both sides. My father's father was very into corporal punishment. His wife called the police on him on a couple of occasions. My mother's mother locked one of my mom's sisters in the closet w/o food or water for 2 days at a time as punishment. Those may have been isolated incidents, but my parents were each 5 yrs older than VP. Times have changed.

Mike: quote: Was this suggestive form (as opposed to declarative) of presenting this idea recent, or about 8 years ago? I'm just wondering how they treat it NOW. I've been going to this fellowship since February, and to be honest, I'm not even sure if I heard it in discussion or teaching. These people are definitely not afraid to re examine even the most fundamental TWI beliefs,which I think is healthy to a point. I've never met CG. Everything I know is based on the people who go to the fellowship.

I currently go to a CG fellowship. I suspect that CG puts forth ideas to those in leadership not as doctrine, but as 'tell me what you think of this' and then he lets those leaders do what they want with it. I've heard teaching suggesting that God doesn't have absolute foreknowledge, but no heavy emphasis. Lately, I heard a teaching that turned into a discussion (definitely not the norm) about whether or not it's possible to SIT for an individual as opposed to praying with the understanding. The purpose was to eliminate the idea that SIT is a "ray gun" which forces God to act according to our whims, but rather just prayer in the spirit which God can direct anywhere He wants to. Also, it was to eliminate the idea that prayer with the understanding is somehow compromised without SIT attached to it, but rather that God hears prayer with the understanding just fine without SIT and that SIT has a different benefit. The discussion got quite animated. I'm still thinking it through, but this situation strikes me as much better than LCM breathing fire on corps hookup and everybody else BETTER agree. Raf, I, too, am curious what you mean about a mid 90s meltdown.

With me, prayer has always been a constant. No matter how crazy it ever gets/got I can always pray. I'm not just talking about SIT; prayer with the understanding is good.

I never heard any teaching about this, but Donnie Fugit told twig leaders in STL once not to hold twig anywhere near a cemetary. Pond: I think it's kinda like electricity: Where does the electricity in your house go after you move out and have them turn off the power? There's no single entity of electricity that is "held in abeyance" until the house is occupied again, either there's power in the house or there's not. Electrical power is a form of energy from a man made source (power plant) and holy spirit is a source of power from God.

I sure agree with whoever said that not everybody has a ministry like Paul's. I spent a few years where TWI was my #1 priority and it wasn't the worst experience of my life, but I left in '94. I didn't have to stop owning and start renting. I didn't have to change jobs or move...OR ELSE!!! Right now I feel like somebody who did military service: I did my "hitch" in TWI and now I'm done. I don't love God any less; I just don't have to take daily marching orders from anyone. Well...maybe my wife.

I find fault with both sides of the issue. The 2 extremes each yield the same result: they care about what happens to "life" during the pregnancy. Pro life cares about the fetus, and pro choice cares about the woman's right to choose, but after the birth occurs nobody cares anymore about either "life". Those extreme people just want their 15 minutes of fame and the abortion issue gives them the vehicle to make their "power play", As for whether a fetus is a person with rights or not, no it isn't, but the mother certainly is. If Jesus could say of Judas Iscariot, "It would be better for that man if he had never been born!" then why can't a mother make the same choice?

Lust offering. That's funny.

Wow!