johniam

I was on the field as a TC in STL. Leadership basically arranged everything so it would look like we were 'bent, but not broken' and that TWI would continue in its glory. When I got the first SIT alert, the one which said VP was in a physically weakened condition, I had no idea at first that he was close to death, but during the ensuing week before the next SIT alert informing us of his death, I couldn't help wondering what was really up. None of the people in my twig suspected anything and I heard nothing from any BC or higher. Then on the morning of May 21 I got a call at 5:30 AM with the bad news. The 9th corps BC who called me sounded like he'd been crying a lot. Interestingly, our area was running a pfal foundational class and on the day he died was session 5. I wasn't at the session, but I think that's the one where VP says, "...and if I DIE TONIGHT...people it's still the word." Just a few more observations. So Rascal, LCM didn't feed you wows huh? Man...they showed us a video once where one of the early wow years LCM didn't feed the wows; just cut 'em loose, and VP reamed him for that. It was like...Craig, how unloving can you be? What the hell were you thinking? Obviously any apologies LCM made then were superficial. I was apprentice corps that year and in late April, just under a month before VP died, I got to go to HQ with other app corps. We stayed in a big house in St. Marys; HUGE house and the night we stayed over night they had a dance. It was weird, though. Most of the people who lived there were staffers and they all just seemed blase', unmotivated about anything, like they were thinking "what am I doing here?" It wasn't super heavy (this feeling) but it was noticeable. Later that year I moved back to Michigan and both in STL and MI the general mood was that the ministry would survive under LCMs leadership. It wasn't until late 86 that I had any idea there would be problems of "biblical" proportions.

quote: I have little respect for somebody who threatens a child with damnation as a method of control. Again, that is without respect for the denomination of the person doing the threatening. That may keep a child in subjection, but will never end up producing a child who ends up WANTING to do the right thing when it's up to them. Frankly, with that type of rearing, it is no wonder to me why there are as many ex-Catholics as there are (and why there are as many ex-baptists, etc.) This was something about TWI that made a positive impression on me. When I first got involved (76/77) they taught that incorruptible seed meant a guarantee of salvation even if you left the ministry. And being raised by ultra liberals my stereotype of pretty much all churches was that they all thought you went to hell if you left. My wife was told when she was 6 yrs old that she'd burn in hell forever if she ever stopped being Christian Reformed. A 6 yr old probably has to still be reminded to not touch the stove. Imagine what it must have been like to introduce the concept of burning forever. I'd call that abuse. This doesn't mean ALL CRC churches would do that, but yeh, not much to respect.

quote: Excellent points 2 natures. Your description of wierwille and false profets fits to a *T*. Uh, yeah, and also Paul, Luke, Peter, and even Jesus. Jesus said to his 12 that they would be witnesses unto him ... yet Peter was "led astray", Luke was LCM, and Paul was VPW. So Jesus was a false prophet as well. It's just like the hard core liberals think: Jesus was nothing more than a glorified cult leader. Whew, now I can get a good night's sleep.

quote: There is no verse that says a father is allowed to keep his children in indentured servitude until his own death, nor that he could transfer said indentured servitude in perpetuity to his successor. Please present it, if you disagree. Can we please talk about ONE thing at ONE time? Until now you've been saying that the phrase FITW is idolatry. NOW you're talking about abusing the title. You Wierwille haters are so desperate to demonize him that you resort to logic that tries to fit a square peg into a round hole. I was never an indentured servant for VPW or LCM. What about Paul calling Abraham the father of all them that believe in Romans? Either Paul was wrong or your rigid legalistic interpretation of Jesus' words is wrong.

quote: So you can name ONE other group that did that.... so they ALL may do that. Riiiight. It's common knowledge that the RC church uses fear of hell to motivate people. I'm not basing that on TWI TEACHINGS, either. I talked to many ex catholics in TWI and they all concurred that according to the church they're going to hell if they don't "repent". Maybe not all people of any certain religion were bombarded with this stuff, but you know as well as I do it's alive and well.

I think all church type groups are tempted to use death as a weapon to control their "flock" not just TWI. My wife was raised in a very legalistic protestant denomination in which children were routinely threatened with hell fire for stuff like playing outside on Sunday, skipping Sunday school by sneaking up to the bell tower, or ever to stop being in that denomination. TWI certainly would not be denied their "fun" along these lines. LCM told John Hendricks that he (JH) would burn in hell if he left TWI. He also tarnished the names of 2 faithful wayfers after they died (details of this are in a thread called 'Death in the promised land') in order to instill fear in living wayfers, and he did that teaching where he said that those who aren't true blue believers would be subject to a scathing reproof session after the gathering together which would include weeping, wailing, and gnashing of teeth. I can't wait. As far as I can see, the word says consistently that dead people should receive SOME honor and recognition for having lived. Even still born children get that! But of course that's up to the living. As for why people die and when? Gosh. Every day is a gift. None of us can guarantee they're going to be alive 24 hrs from now. There are times when people are vulnerable and only THEY can decide how to proceed. We can speculate from here to doomsday but bottom line the person is dead. My mom spent the last 3 yrs of her life on the supportive care floor of a nursing home. She had alzheimers and was always trying to escape. Supportive care floors have alarms on the exit doors. I suspect that she lost at least some of her will to live during those 3 yrs, but she was 85, frail, and they put xanic in her food every day. I was actually relieved when she finally died.

So you're saying Paul was wrong too then?

Freeindeed: Welcome to GSC. I still have some SNS tapes, but maybe once a year I'll listen to the tapes from Living Victoriously. Yeah, it's good stuff all right. Unfortunately, many here literally HATE VPW. It's always the same process: they start by listing his "sins", then from there they attack his credibility, then they speculate every possible way he was "evil". Trying to get most people here to like VPW is like trying to get a black man in a small southern town elected mayor 100 yrs ago. I agree; the word still heals.

I always took the FITW thing as benign. I heard the 'Four fathers of the believer' teaching and occasionally people would use the phrase, but it wasn't a big deal. I was a twig cordo for 2 yrs and even in the meetings I got to go to they never made a big deal about it. I think sometimes people would just shoot off their mouths independently of anything VP ever said or intended. I heard someone say matter of factly once that VP was an apostle and therefore he SAW Jesus. He based it on the scripture where Paul says "Am I not an apostle; have I not seen Jesus our Lord", or something like that. There was never a SNS teaching with that on it that I'm aware of. Just one guy one time thinking out loud. Makes me wonder what ELSE people might have said like that. I never saw Black Sabbath, but I saw Ozzy from 7th row in '03. Glad I had ear plugs.

In 1986 I was in a meeting in which LCM reported what he said was the third suicide ever in the way corps. I can't remember much of what was said, but he quickly said that there were hundreds of suicides in the denominations. Oh, that's great! TWI's better than those other places because we've had less suicides.

What do you think about his future?

Rascal, you're a bully! You're telling people what they saw, even if they didn't see it. You're telling people how to think, even if they don't think it. Do you have any idea how offensive you are? Get some help.

Dmiller: Good point. As I recall, the first poster was asked for verification, then admitted he got his info from a JAL letter, then said he wanted his own verification if this was true or not. I don't think we should name names here, but if VP did in fact say what the first post says he said, then I'd like to know if any GSers were in attendance. Oakspear: quote: you have publically come out in favor of violence against women outyside of self-defense I really don't think that responding to being verbally assaulted for an extended period of time is outside of self defense. Remember Reagan telling that reporter to shut up? What do you think would've happened to him if he hadn't? I don't have secret service agents in my house to enforce my "mandates". Do you think I'd still be married after 17 yrs if I routinely looked for reasons to physically abuse those in my household? As for the position Diazbro "didn't take", he said "under ANY circumstances" didn't he?

Skyrider: If I were to say that the group Black Sabbath is the father of heavy metal music, would that be idolatry? Excathedra: Not a problem, but with VP it's just not going to happen in this life.

Skyrider: Well, sure it's possible to use the father relationship and turn it into idolatry, but it's not automatic. Paul said "I have begotten you through the gospel". Can't have a begetting without a father. This same double standard keeps coming up: if I praise Wierwille it's always "give God the praise, for this man was a sinner", but if someone says Wierwille sinned then it's Wierwille's fault, not the devil's. Say what you want, but I'm not ashamed to say that I couldn't make any sense out of the bible until PFAL.

quote: he wishes to be acknowledged as a christian. This is not a Christian website. I could care less if you or anybody else thinks I'm Christian or not. quote: But it simply is not possible for one to be an advocate of violence against women (under ANY circumstance) and also be called a christian. Is that so? During the late 80s I worked as an asst mgr for a fast food chain. The man who signed my paychecks owned something like 25 stores. He had a large spread of property with a house on it somewhere north of town. Well, one day his wife got in a car and drove all over the property trying to run him over and kill him. OK, Mr. self righteous, what would you have done? Let her run you over? What an idiot! All my posts were in the context of women abusing men. Some here don't apparently want to acknowledge that this exists. Not just women, but some male stooges like yourself, Diazbro. Under ANY circumstances???? I'll tell you what I'D do. In my way of thinking, if my wife tried to kill me I'd have basically 2 choices: 1) abandon the marriage as unsalvageable and immediately turn the matter over to third parties (police, psychiatrists, lawyers, etc.) 2) fight for her I can't just say I'd automatically do either one under ANY circumstances; it would depend on exactly what happened and how I perceived the situation, but my first choice would be to fight for her. So if I fight for her, I'm supposed to reason with someone who just tried to kill me? C'mon, genius, what would you do? (now we're probably going to see you as the one who is evasive). Speaking of which, it seems to me, Diazbro, that you NEVER post anything about yourself as having a family or spouse or any kind of relationship. Most people here if they have even a tenth as many posts as you do...then you know if they're married or have kids or whatever, but you just never seem to reveal anything about yourself like that. This leaves a lot open to the imagination. Are you gay? married? Divorced? Did she take you to the cleaners BAD? I often marvel how the most adamant, self appointed experts on child raising always seem to be people who have no kids of their own. And here you are...telling me all about relationship ettiquette when you have no relationship of your own. At least, not one you're not too ashamed of to ever refer to. If you don't want to post about your personal life, that's your business, but don't you be telling ME what I should or should not talk about here. quote: Nor does he wish to deal with racial issues except to talk about how "sick and tired" he is about minority advancement. I have no problems with minority advancement, just minority RACISM! There's a difference. quote: disappeared for a few months thinking that it would blow over and now he has re-emerged. We had computer problems we kind of dragged our feet about fixing and then when GSC changed servers or whatever they did I couldn't post for awhile because I didn't get the email about the temporary password. I was not waiting for anything to "blow over". Diazbro, you are one of the posters here who uses GSC as a spitoon for your rage.

quote: so then, my minister (during my teenage years) who taught me truths from Romans and showed me the new birth, and prayed with me, and was a father-figure to me..............he is MY "father in the Word." (??) Yes!!! Nobody ever said VP was the only father in the word. Yes, a minister whose ministry taught people the word would be the same thing. I was in TWI from 77 - 94 and during the first few years especially, there seemed to be countless people, ordained or not, corps or not, who could teach effectively and meet peoples' needs and the support system was good. VP didn't do everything, but enough people cared that individual needs were met even if it was your first twig you ever attended. Churches are just as capable of meeting peoples' needs. Martin Luther was a father in the word to the people he ministered to. I just don't think it's idolatry to call someone father in the word.

Doojable: Funny. I was just on a thread talking about the concept of 'Father in the word'. Are you my mother in the word? This gift just keeps on giving.

quote: Does that make BG Leonard........the "FATHER of the father in the Word" (??) It may make him VPs father in the word, but there is no "grandfather in the word". ! Cor 4:15-17 shows that there was a bonding between Paul and those he had "begotten through the gospel". I was familiar with VP but not with BG Leonard.

quote: I've forgotten more scripture than you've ever learned in all your pompous arrogance. [Right-THAT sentence was absent of "pompous arrogance."] Rush Limbaugh calls this 'demonstrating absurdity by being absurd'. I mean, c'mon. The guy looks down his nose at me and says I don't know the scriptures or the power of God? I had to come back with SOMETHING. quote: He's on to us, people. That's RIGHT!!! I'm ON TO YOU! Be afraid! Be very afraid! Rascal, do you have any idea how offensive you are? Aw, c'mon...smile.

I believe the phrase is "father IN the word" not OF! Scripture for this is 1 Cor. 4:15. He did a teaching called the four fathers of the believer. 1) God, heavenly father 2) Abraham, father of all them that believe 3) your dad, earthly father and 4) FITW.

Hmm. Apparently I'm not the only one here who has problems with your pigheadedness. quote: rascal: Do you have any idea how offensive you are? You are speaking for others. You are telling others what happened to them (whether it happened or not). You are telling others what to think about it (whether they think it or not). You are telling people what they were exposed to (whether they were exposed to it or not). And, worst of all, you do a disservice to those who stumbled, those who fell, by telling them they can't get back up. To listen to you, anyone who experienced any misery while in TWI is stuck in it and with it forever. The only remedy, the only hope of redemption, is to wallow in vindictiveness, to destroy what you imagine destroyed you. "The bitterness of drought." If that's where you are and want to stay, so be it. But don't drag me there with you, because I'm not going. Consider this: There are people who were/are in TWI who listened to the same teachings you did and did not become "rampant fornicators and adulterers." They did not abuse their own or anyone else's children. And when "forced" to have an abortion, turn in a schedule, give more and more money, take more and more classes, they said "NO." What made the difference, rascal? What was inside of that person that helped them rise above? What did they do to "get over it"? That's what this thread is about. It isn't yet another rehashing of all that is wrong, all that went wrong, all that was never right. It is a place for others to express the goodness they found there, IF they found it. You can post on this thread if you want to, but you are going to hear MY opinion, too. I hope you're ready for that. Rascal, are you really that dense? Among other things, Laleo said in the opening post to this thread: quote: What are your success stories? (If you don't have one, this is not the thread for you. Move along, please.) Or is common courtesy something you can't comprehend? -------------- quote: Originally posted by rascal: Dense? hmmm probably :-) Comprehend common courtesy? Apparently not :-) Offensive? No doubt :-) Will this stop me from posting my pov? Not likely :-) The word for that is "harassment." But it was ok for you and your buddies to make fun of Alan for misspelling and misusing words. Didn't see ya jumping to his defense when that was going on. You are a bully rascal. And I am honestly just sick and tired of your crap so I called you on it. Too bad you didn't have enough class to just apologize to laleo and bow out of this thread. ------------------Rascal, on your praising or cursing thread, some people were posting things you didn't agree with. It was so important to you to keep the thread on topic in fact, that you posted the following to those posters who "helped" you keep it on topic: quote: Your help in keeping this thread on topic and support of attempts to express myself ..are aprecited So when it's your thread, by golly it has to stay on topic, but you can't be courteous to someone else who want's to keep a thread THEY started on topic? Oh, and by the way, the word is spelled appreciated. -------------------- The work will wait while you show the child the rainbow. But the rainbow won't wait while you finish the work. I hadn't intended to post to this thread, because I have little, if any, to say about the topic. But I do have something to say about what you're doing on this thread, Rascal. You are doing the same thing, from the opposite direction, that you accuse (often rightly) oldiesman of doing on abuse threads. Long Gone, thank you for bringing that up. That is EXACTLY what she is doing. Rascal, calling me a "damned liar" is, I belive a personal attack. I may have been in error as I guess you didn't directly post any jabs to Alan about his misspelling. But, since you started the personal attack, I belive I will call YOU a damned liar. I never said once that you approved of such tactics. I said I didn't see you jumping to his defense. As far as apologizing, It will be a cold day in hell before I apologize to a bully like you. I was mistaken...you did not make jabs at Alan. But see, your words were said in a bullying way, and you will not "bully" an apology out of me. You spewed: quote: You are a damned liar BMan, it is YOU who owe ME an apology, not that I`d expect any. Just what the hell's up with that anyway? That little "not that I'd expect any" makes it sound like you know something about me when you don't know jack **** about me. Nice little tactic Rascal...make people think you know me and that I'm not man enough to make an apology. Wow, your a real piece of work. Now this thread is not about you, nor is it about me so I am not going to post anymore to you here. Go ahead, have the last word. As I have seen in the past, this will continue till you get it so I'm done. Have fun! --------------------

I wish no ill on anyone. Putting me in the position of"spitting on someone" for having my opinion is just plain fighting dirty. quote: VPW didn't save your lfe, neither did you, neither would Stiles, Kenyon, Bullinger or any other man - nor any other class. GOD saved your life through Jesus Christ. Ah, yes but VP ruined excie's life, not the devil. Why the double standard? I have nothing against Excathedra. I don't know her except for her posts. She's usually got a cheerful personality and a good sense of humor, especially on those corps threads, but when it comes to VP she's this hospice patient who never actually dies; not buying it. To tell the truth I think it's her supporters more than her; to them she's their poster child for all their rage against VPW and TWI and they got to keep propping her up as this "scarecrow" to ward off any possible praise for the good that VP did. quote: these posters have got nothing TO MOVE ON TO. Very sad.

quote: Impossile... Not gonna happen. Who told you that? VPW? I'm not saying it IS going to happen for sure, but YOU don't know that it's not. Do you always misspell words when angry? quote: You are giving VPW credit in YOUR life for what YOU did. Well, DUH, putting PFAL together was something he DID that directly affected what I DID. Hellooooooo? quote: You don't realize this because "you don't know the scriptures, not the power of God." I've forgotten more scripture than you've ever learned in all your pompous arrogance. quote: Then you think that spitting on Excie... I spat on no one. quote: ... and insulting her friends is a part of the ROLE you play here? I wasn't insulting anybody; I merely stated a fact. Everybody plays a role here, and if your stupid assessment of my posts is china, then yes that's my role. quote: Any other *earth-shattering* news you care to share??? Yes. I've posted this before on other threads, but this dispute is bigger than GSC. Politically correct is 2 things: 1) it is a subtle attempt to become America's "state religion" 2) it is a BLATANT attempt to attack the freedom of speech of 1) white 2) male 3) Christian and 4) conservatives. If you're one of those four you will have problems, and if you're all 4 you might as well have a target painted on you. I've come to the conclusion these days that pretty much ANYTHING that I do or say is going to be offensive to SOMEBODY. In fact, every cell in my whole body is offensive to somebody as well...... (to the tune of 'Every sperm is sacred') EVery cell is blasphemous, EVery cell is bad. NONE of them are needed, they'll ONly make you mad EVery cell is blasphemous, EVery cell is dissed with EVery one that's living, God gets really ....ed. How's that, D?

quote: I got a nice pair of cuffs and a horsewhip with your name on them. We'll play swat the fly .. you get to be the fly. Oh, but I'M the one who gets off on others' pain? quote: what in the heck do you make of THOSE WORDS ? i'm serious I don't. They were never said to me. Like I said, VP is never going to appear before a court in this world. What closure do you expect by reliving this over and over again? How many times does someone have to agree with you that VP was a sleazebag before you can be peaceful again?