johniam

Belle: All right. Thank you for clarifying that. Your post (#24) came off to me as a calloused dismissal of everything I said in the name of hating TWI/VPW. I apologize. I'm not sure to this day if John Hendricks even heard about the incident. On one hand, you'd think he'd want to know if someone left the class, but on another hand, by leaving we certainly put the STL area cordo in an awkward position....that somebody from his own fellowship blew off the AC. In 1984 I was reproved because someone I signed up for PFAL foundational class was 10 minutes late for session 3 and wasn't allowed to finish THAT class (had to wait for the next one, which he did) so I'm hearing this...."You're an AC grad; how could you let this happen?" WTF??? So that guy could've told them anything to cover his rear. No idea. But our kids weren't interested in fellowship at all any more so what happened was simply the last straw. Now they all like going to fellowship. Your point is legit: any group that kicks people out for stuff like that will invite suspicion. But I'm still a believer in much of what TWI taught and not willing to dismiss a group with over 1000 people in it just because of what happened to me. Even with JH dead they're still doing ACs and all their other programs.

Ever since being in TWI if I woke up from a scary dream I just SIT like crazy and within a minute or 2 I'm back to sleep.

Yeah, but the problem with the ignore feature is that it's still an open forum. Anybody can post their input. So if you have someone on ignore and they post something in response to something you posted, other posters can see what the poster you have on ignore posted, but you can't. And if other posters respond to that poster then you are in the dark because you don't know what they're talking about and everybody else does plus they're probably talking about you or something you originally posted and you wouldn't want to be in the dark about that. In THAT light, putting people on ignore is at best, sticking your head in the sand like an ostrich, and at worst, saying in effect, "If I can't get my way, I'm going to take my ball and go home!"

quote: What is your view on this? I agree. The knock on churches in the 60s and 70s was that they used the fear of hell to keep people from leaving. I saw this first hand in the neighborhood I grew up in. The kid next door was the best athlete in our street. But one Sunday he was just standing in his front yard when this black car pulls up and a pointing finger shot out of the car window at the front door. The kid ran into his house like a bat out of hell. That kid and several others told me I'd go to hell for playing outside on Sunday. That was then; NOBODY seems to be like that now. I'm still quite comfortable with TWI type fellowships but I'm not afraid to join a church.

Ex: Hey, I got an idea. I took a psych class in which they said a little boy was in his bedroom looking at a cute little stuffed animal when a really loud noise scared the crap out of him, and for years thereafter the boy would freak every time he saw a stuffed animal the same color as the one when the noise happened. They cured him with a progressive type method where little by little they would introduce the animal to his presence, first a small picture, then a bigger picture, then a little candy animal, then a bigger candy animal, then a little stuffed animal of a different color, then a bigger....you get the idea. What I thought might help is if you made a realistic looking diploma, maybe give it some colors that would catch your eye more than a real beige diploma and caligraphy write it with "on this date (pick a date that is close to when you left TWI) this certifies that Ex C. Athedra has been conferred with the degree of (you pick) and all the rights and privileges etc. Then put it in your bedroom just like some corporate person would put it in their office so you can see it regularly. Never know. Might help.

quote: individual local leadership is allowed to continue by the top level leadership, no? That doesn't mean they can be held responsible for every decision every one of their leaders makes. How absurd. But of course, if top level leadership's feces didn't give off an odor like your's doesn't and if top level leadership was perfect like you are, then who knows?

People are different. I never have recurring dreams, but if something affects me I'll have a dream about it. Right after we left TWI I had this dream that I was in the WAP class and LCM kept saying, "DON"T TELL ME WHAT THE #*%@# THE LOVE OF GOD IS! I THINK I KNOW MORE THAN YOU DO WHAT THE #&%$@ GOD"S LOVE IS! HEY!!" And this went on and on until I woke up, but I only had the dream once. Then after I discovered GSC/Waydale I had a dream that I was at HQ and LCM himself was acting nice to me, inviting me to participate in stuff but as I looked around me everywhere I looked someone was yelling at someone else (here am I, reprove me) and plus everybody's faces were partially decomposed like that scene in the movie "Poltergeist" where the guy's picking the skin off his face and throwing it in the sink. But everyone was nice to me like it was business as usual. Whew. But I only had that dream once too. There's a guy who was in TWI in the early 80s in STL who told me he had vivid dreams about stuff and did this have spiritual meaning. Donnie Fugit told him it was just residue from his drug days, but today he eschews TWI and has written 2 books called "Dreams of the spirit" carried by Barnes and Noble. His name is Bart Druckenmiller and a google search will find him and his books. I thought it was interesting that he followed up on that, although I haven't read either one. Excie, it sounds to me like your first dream may be that you have the thought that because of TWI your life will never be fulfilled and the second is a continuation of the first. Dunno. Dot, no way your dream isn't comparing the quality of TWI with what's in those toilets.

That's weird, all right. I wouldn't do it. My 16 yr old daughter says EWWWWWWWWW!

quote: Are you still "with" them, and if not, why not? Not with them. But as I said, the reason we're not with them any more is because of local leadership, not John Hendricks directly. In my situation it was best for us to move on, but we're still quite comfortable with a TWI type fellowship and I cannot in all honesty transfer my particular problem with local leadership onto the whole CRF ministry. I guess I got you curious now, eh? I'm not ashamed to recount what happened; just wasn't sure this was the right thread, but there might not ever be a better one. CRF usually has Advanced Classes in early to mid December at Destin, Fla. For $430.00 you get....... to stay in luxury condos that sleep 6 near the ocean class session morning and evening/ free time all afternoon oh, and they happen to be on a resort with golf courses, beaches, shopping, restaurants, and, oh yeah, the AC There is no way CRF didn't have to foot some of the bill for everybody who comes. My wife and I were in such a condo in Dec of '04 with 4 others (the house coordinator and his wife, both STL people we knew, and 2 single guys from south Fla.). Typically, you arrive Friday night, meet your roommates, and decide who gets which bedroom. People from CRF bring everybody (about 300 people) snacks and sandwich fixings for the first night. Then on Saturday everybody pools together and plans meals for the week, who cooks, and whatever else anybody wants and 2 people go shopping. It usually costs between $50 and $60 per person. Overall, not bad price for a week in paradise. Lot better atmosphere than the TWI AC I attended, anyway. Well, on that Saturday at around 4PM I had been taking a nap in our bedroom, my wife and one of the single guys were shopping for the food, the house coordinator had to be at the class location for something, which left the coordinator's wife and the other single guy in the kitchen talking. I woke up and was just about to put on clothes and join them when I heard the cordo's wife talking to the guy about my wife and kids. She said some very unflattering things about them...to a total stranger....at the Advanced class...where I thought you were supposed to focus on the Christ in each other. Silly me. At one point the guy walked over and rattled the door handle to my bedroom to test if I was sleeping or not there. Maybe his conscience bothered him; maybe God was trying to do something. He didn't reprove her though; she's the house coordinator's wife. I felt like I'd been kicked in the stomach. Felt betrayed. So I packed my suitcase, waited for my wife to return, bit my tongue during dinner, and made sure we were the last to leave for the class session, then told her what happened. I wanted to just leave the class right then, but she wanted to confront this person so we told the STL area cordo and he arranged for a meeting at our condo after the class session. The meeting was handled so that everybody could air out their side of the issue. The house cordo's wife apologized profusely. I still wanted to go home so I said I didn't buy her apology and was told to "move past this emotionally or go home". My wife wanted to stay so I thought about it for maybe a minute, but we left. The meeting didn't end till about midnight and we had to turn in our parking pass and get our phone deposit back and of course gas up so we didn't get on the road in earnest until about 1AM. We rolled into Montgomery, Ala. at quarter to 4AM. It was actually kind of a sweet drive through those sleepy Fla. and Ala. towns in the dead of night. It was like my wife and I had a bonding experience similar to when we were dating before marriage and kids. We just talked about stuff. It was really cool. A week after the class ended we got a letter from the STL cordo. His position was that we were unforgiving and THAT was worse than what the house cordo's wife did. He said we couldn't go to fellowship until we worked it out with the house cordo and his wife. I returned his letter saying thanks but no thanks and we started looking for a church. Our position is that first, there is a difference between being a gossip and being a talebearer. The word 'gossip' does not appear in the bible. EVERYBODY gossips. Everybody exchanges facts and opinions about people they know. But when gossip includes malice and/or slander, then it becomes talebearing. The book of Proverbs has severe things to say about talebearers and the effect they have on those around them. I believe what the house cordo's wife did qualifies as the act of a talebearer. Does this mean I can't forgive her or that I'm not capable of "sinning to that degree"? Hell no. But she specifically told this guy that my wife was hard to get along with and her husband was "good with her" but not many others were. Then she said my kids were "really unruly" without bothering to mention that 2 of them are autistic. I admit we aren't an easy family, but OK, so my wife is this "problem believer", right? In TWI even way back they wouldn't let just anybody take the AC. Even if you passed the written exam you could still be excluded if leadership thought you weren't ready. But if me and my wife can pay cash, who cares, right? What else am I to think? We now go to a fellowship associated with Chris geer. There is no children's fellowship and my kids like it. Even one of the autistic ones talks positively about fellowship at his school. We are still in contact with a few of the John Hendricks people, but over a year later, I'm still glad we made the move we made. Like I said, this doesn't automatically transfer to the whole CRF ministry. There's a 6th corps woman in STL who was on staff with her husband in 1989 and got the boot from TWI for not properly responding to LCM's loyalty letter. She told me she was very soured and cynical about everything until she went to a CRF Advanced Class which healed her heart and possibly saved her marriage. So my initial advice to Richard Byrum, who started this thread was to see where it leads him. Just because it didn't work out for me doesn't mean it won't work out for him.

Well, I'm thinking back 20 yrs or more. Here in STL there was only 1 believer who took the AC from the STL metro area in 1983, so the following year one of the corps grads held AC candidate meetings once per month. The tone of these meetings was positive and uplifting; nothing heavy. The plan must have worked because there were several of us in the '84 AC. I'm sure some of the same things were covered in preparation for each AC, but like I said the tone was probably different. I have no problem with charging money for an AC, but I left TWI in '94 and the way local leadership was treating people then they couldn't have paid me to sit in the same room with them for a day, much less 2 weeks. Bagpipes, I think YOU are in the best position to evaluate the current state of TWI legalism.

quote: Things I would ask: - How does VP Wierwille and TWI doctrine fit into what they teach? Quite substantially. - Do they open their financial records to the membership? If not, why? No. Why should they? Do you ask the gas station attendant where the money you paid for gas goes? - How do they handle people who disagree with the doctrine they teach? They is one leader at a time. The one I was familiar with politely tried to work with the people. A year ago when my wife and I were church shopping we told an assoc. pastor we didn't believe Jesus was God. He wasn't as willing to work with us as the John Hendricks guy was with HIS questioners. - How do they handle questions about the organization and doctrinal issues? The same way. - What do they teach on money, debt, the tithe, being saved, speaking in tongues? Not what Martindale teaches. More like TWI pre Martindale with a few new wrinkles. For example, JH teaches that all giving of money is under what he calls the 'law of giving and receiving', that ANYBODY, Christian or not, who gives of a willing heart will receive back. He used a neighbor from his childhood as an example of this. JH is very big on speaking and singing in tongues. During our 5 years with the group we were not pressured at all to give money or SIT unless you consider simply passing the horn of plenty around pressure. - How much do they get involved with people's lives? Only as much as people let them. - How often is one expected to attend their meetings? Totally voluntary. - What are the requirements for leadership? CRF has an estimated 1000-1500 people who attend fellowships regularly. Most fellowship coordinators are either ex way corps or people endorsed by existing leadership. No background checks or anything like that. - What are the checks and balances in place to avoid just one or three people making all the decisions? None. - What are the "rules" (spoken and unspoken) for membership? Faithful participation. - Do they even have "membership"? If not, run - run away very quickly! Yes, they have membership. After you've been to 2 meetings they drag you out back and brand your butt with CRF. Don't worry, they give you plenty of ointment and after 2 weeks it stops hurting.

quote: I would keep my eyes open, my brain in gear and ask lots of questions..... I do that with every church/religious group I visit. Somehow I can't picture anyone questioning a catholic priest like that.....for very long. Or any other minister.

Even LCM said (80s sometime) that it was UNNATURAL to not strongly resist any attempt to coerce you into denying what you truly believe and feel, or something like that. So when he and his goons did exactly that in the 90s, this qualifies as "compelling to blaspheme" IMO.

Hmm. I thought this thread was supposed to be about the anger of Wierwillites; looks to me like it's about the anger of Wierwille haters.

Same thing that would irk anyone: seeing him get misrepresented. All that stuff about sex and plagiarism may be factually true, but he still taught the word of God. THAT'S what gets misrepresented.

WW & CM: So you guys did biblical research to disprove my point? Ironic.

quote: O M Gawd , Johniam, did you just compare the bible with ................................a dirty magazine? No, I didn't, and this type of one dimensional thinking is what I find most annoying on GSC. What I DID do was to convert 4 nouns into 2 equal fractions. To illustrate this, I have assigned numerical value to the 4 nouns as follows... Playboy centerfold = 1 being sexually aroused = 2 the bible = 1 million God = 2 million OK. Real slow now. Just as the number 1 million is far greater than the number 1, the bible is far greater than a Playboy centerfold, and just as the number 2 million is far greater than the number 2, God is far greater than being sexually aroused, yet the fraction 1/2 is equal to the fraction 1 million/2 million. People look at a Playboy centerfold to become sexually aroused, and people look at the bible to see God revealed. There, see it? Probably not, but at least this post documents that you had a CHANCE to actually use your brains. ps. - This post is not limited to or even clearly pointing at the poster whose quote I used.

quote: i don't see a researcher called by God anywhere in the bible! no ministry of research to be found! Nehemiah 8: 1-8. If it says they "gave the sense" like it does in v. 8, that means they said other words besides those in scripture. John 5:36-39. It seems the consequences for those people NOT searching the scriptures were pretty grim.

quote: But, as I've said before (and as others here have said, as well), the Bible reaveals God to us. The Bible isn't God. Nice bait and switch there. So, um, if I want to see God revealed to me, I should read the bible and maybe respect it just a tad, but DON'T RESPECT IT TOO MUCH!!!!!! YOU'LL GO STRAIGHT TO HELL!!!!! QUICK, PUT IT DOWN AND RUNNNNNNNN!!!!!! Jeez, that makes no sense; that's like a man looking at a Playboy centerfold and as soon as he starts to get aroused.....OH MY GOD! WHERE'S THE FIREPLACE? HOW COULD I HAVE BEEN SO EVIL? Some of you guys will go to ridiculous lengths to bash TWI/VPW.

quote: johniam - just to be clear - I was saying that it is important to keep asking questions and to keep thinking - no matter what the circumstances. ( keep thinking= NOT turning off the brain) I agree. I wanted to address the turn off the brain part and it was your quote but I do agree that people have a right to ask questions.

Richard: Welcome to Greasespot Cafe. I was in the Way 18 yrs and John Hendricks CRF ministry 5 yrs. Yes, the format is very much like the Way. If you've been to fellowships and are comfortable with the people and the format you might as well see where it leads you. The reason I no longer go to a fellowship for CRF is because of problems with local leadership, not because of John Hendricks or anything he taught. What part of the country are you from? quote: I don't see anything wrong with getting involved with any group as long as you are willing to not turn your brain off. IMO there are people at Greasespot who are just as guilty of "turning off their brain".

Hape4me: One reason I remember about Agnew was that it happened in spring of 1970. It was a celebrity golf tournament of some kind and the person he hit was a pro golfer named Doug Sanders. But a few weeks later the opening game for the Washington Senators had Agnew throw out the first ball from a box seat. Since I lived in MI at the time and the game was against the Detroit Tigers, the Sunday sports section had a cartoon of Agnew winding up to throw out the ball while everybody in the stands behind him was making haste to move FAR AWAY from where he was standing even though he would throw the ball in the opposite direction. It was kinda funny.

Reminds me of the time VP Spiro Agnew hit somebody with a golf shot.

quote: I've found PLENTY of churches that teach all these things, Hmm. A year ago my family stopped going to the fellowship for the John Hendricks ministry. Our first plan was to join a church. We just started inquiring at churches near our house (there are several). We went to a Methodist, Presbyterian, 2 United Churches of Christ, a mega church and a non denominational church. For each one we went to a Sunday service and a mid week service hoping to get a one on one with a minister or an associate pastor. Since we had a good experience with that church in MI we figured we wouldn't have a problem finding a church that fit us. Everybody was nice as pie to us. It seems that even church people have the same glassy eyed fascination with new people as TWI did. We probably would have chosen the mega church because they had meetings for many categories of people every week (teens, old people, single parents, etc.) and none of the other churches stood out as being special, so based on better selection alone we probably would have tried the mega church, but alas fate intervened. A guy I lived with for a year in TWI called requesting me to figure out the words and chords to Sam Pruyn's song "You've been forgiven" that Claudettee also recorded. I was able to do that and one thing led to another and we went to a fellowship with the Chris Geer people. Like I said in another thread, it's been a pleasant surprise. When we were trying to find a church we experimented as to what we revealed to them about stuff like JCING and ADAN. This definitely would have been a problem. We probably could have coped, but the CG fellowship is really outstanding IMO. It was weird because I've heard negatives about him from GSC, John Hendricks, and of course LCM when we were still in TWI. So how did you find these "plenty of churches" that teach SIT and incorruptible seed. Internet?

quote: "Primal Scream" Mama don't GO!!!!! Daddy come home. IMO it IS possible to think of PFAL as something separate from peoples' words, actions, religions, etc. PFAL as just words, true or not, with no relationship to what VP did. No relationship to the catholic church or any other church or religion. On GSC THAT would truly be thinking objectively. There are many great things taught in PFAL: how to get born again, how to SIT, knowing that you're going to heaven and all hell can't stop you, knowing that Christ paid in full for all your sins, knowing how the bible fits with life, knowing that you CAN get answers to prayers, and many more. Sure, these things have been taught before, but not under one roof. If you want to go shopping there are several stores to choose from. Target, Walmart, Walgreens, Sears, J C Penney, Dillards, Hudsons. In Michigan and some other states there's Meijer's. I always liked shopping there because they have a big selection of groceries (better than Walmart) plus the same retail stuff all those other places have. Point is, it's always better when you can get more stuff you like under the same roof. PFAL has more stuff I like under the same roof than denominational churches. The PFAL store closed down years ago, but what I bought from it still works. No digital vs analog problem HERE!