johniam

Yeah, I played croquet growing up. We had a set in our garage and several other kids in the neighborhood did as well. Nothing about blood, but it was popular for a while. Can't even remember the last time I played it. At least 20 years.

Yep. They're digging in till the rapture.

Hmmm. Happiness is a warm gun, eh?

quote: Let the Darwin-Effect weed out the really strange ones. Could this possibly mean social darwin effect (survival of the fittest, or unstrangest)?

One of my window cleaning accounts is a Tinder box store. They sell tobacco related stuff. Right now they have several different sizes of Hookahs. The guy there says that hookahs have a role in tobacco history, but since we've already mentioned the Fabulous Furry Freak Bros. who can forget the one where they were smoking from a hookah and Wonder Wart Hog (drawn by the same guy, Gilbert Shelton), smashes the brick wall they're behind and tells them everything's cool. One of the hookahs at tinder box is 4 feet tall and has 6 hoses.

I saw Rundgren in '74 between Nazz and Utopia and in '76 with Utopia. He struck me as being REALLY egotistical. The guy who killed John Lennon is into Todd pretty heavy. I like "Open my eyes" and "Communion with the Sun" and "Love in action". I guess I'd be willing to give the New Cars a listen.

quote: Looks like Word Promotions has recently acquired a corporate charter in Maine. So much for him having something to hide.

Diazbro: I didn't say that TWI invented or perfected home fellowships. No human can perfect anything. In my response to Linda I concurred that TWI did not originate home fellowships, but that they had committed themselves to them (put all their eggs in that basket) and I personally don't know of any group the size TWI was that got that big AND committed to home fellowships like TWI did. I didn't follow Christian trends before getting into TWI. I had very limited exposure to Christianity, so it doesn't surprise me to hear there were home fellowships all over; just that as I said, I personally never heard of an organized home fellowship style group anywhere near as big as TWI was. Comparing the 70s TWI to today's TWI is to me as though a butterfly morphed into a slug.

quote: No johnuare... it's a foolish question because it is... just like "somebody once asked Donnie Fugit "JEEEZUS didn't have a motorcoach. Why does VP have one?" IS ALSO A FOOLISH QUESTION. If a question is foolish it just is. Using the logic of the question you pose ("Did Jesus have a website? or Paul?") I could easily ask "Did Jesus use a PA system? a CD burner? a tape recorder?" ...it's just foolish. Back in the day they used whatever means were available to them... in these modern times what quicker, better way is there to disseminate information than the internet? Tom: Thank you for at least being consistent. Some GSers might feel that asking why VP had a motorcoach is a good question. Donnie just rolled his eyes and asked sarcastically "Did Jesus drive a car?" But if Jesus or Paul or Martin Luther got along without a website, so could anybody. You still haven't answered why CG is somehow obligated to have a website, as Igotout implied, and what it tells that he doesn't have one.

Why SHOULD CG have a website? Means to do WHAT? Anything you could forecast is just speculation. This is another double standard. Back in TWI somebody once asked Donnie Fugit "JEEEZUS didn't have a motorcoach. Why does VP have one?" But if I say Jesus didn't have a website, that's a foolish question.

quote: Concerning the Geerite spinoffs I have a pressing question. Why no websites or Internet presence by CG and some of the other CG affiliates? Something to hide perhaps? Afraid of what might be posted about you? It's very telling in my opinion. Telling of what? Did Jesus have a website? or Paul? quote: I'm not saying they are bad or good. It's not for me, but it does meet the needs of some people. I like having many choices of things to get involved with. I like having a "building" and not having to scrounge around for places to hold big meetings. I like a lot of "church" things that these kinds of groups can't provide. I like knowing where my money is going and how it's being spent. I agree totally. Like I said, churches aren't the only game in town, but neither are home fellowships. Interestingly, in TWI 85% of ABS went to HQ with 15% staying in the limb. With CG it's the opposite. Every so often we have big gatherings and ABS money pays for food, rented rooms, etc. so to an extent, I DO know where my money is going. Back to me. Belle, you might remember from that thread about John Hendricks that I recounted leaving and posted that we started looking for a church. Remember? At the time we thought as you just posted that a church would be better equipped to deal with our kids than a ex way spinoff. Well, we went to six churches, a mid week meeting and a Sunday service plus a one on one with a pastor or asst pastor. Someone from the CG fellowship called me about something non biblical related not knowing we weren't with John H anymore. One thing led to another and we started going to that fellowship which has been refreshingly absent of the kinds of pressure TWI and some spinoff leadership have put on people. We probably could've been happy in any of the churches we looked at, but this CG fellowship is working out for us. By the way, are you even aware that I actually apologized to you on the JH thread for a couple of remarks I made to you? quote: Wierwille's impact was marginal at best. Outside of twi, he was barely a footnote and had no real "impact" on Christian churches... Oh, and THAT's why every time I went to a Christian book store their cult section had all kinds of books that usually listed TWI 3rd or 4th most "dangerous cult". It was about money, not doctrine. They figured TWI was stealing people from them. "Mind control", right? TWI "possessed" people against their will to sign those green cards. Yeppur! But to me, this indicates IMPACT.

Define "seriously"!!!

quote: Is that *ALL* without exception? Or *ALL* with distinction?? It's all (without exception) 9 all (with distinction) the time. Now it fits like a hand in a glove.

I'm pretty sure that the solid evidence in VPs case against personal experiences is Norman Vincent Peale supposedly telling VP that he (NVP) saw his dead father take his place in a choir in a church. NVP supposedly said to VPW "I don't care what you can show me from the bible! I only know what I SAW!!!" That was dire proof to VP that emphasizing experiences is a trick of the devil.

Linda: I wasn't trying to infer that church is a bad choice and I admit that TWI taught us to be bigots about church people. I know church in the home was not originated by TWI, but I can't think of any other groups whose whole MO was church in the home. They put all their eggs in that basket and it worked. Today's TWI wouldn't exist if it weren't for the success of the 70s TWI. I'm much more open to churches now than I ever have been, but they're still not the only game in town.

quote: Not trying to be a smart-foot, just curious how you could know so much about other churches. I went to a couple different home fellowships before I hooked up with TWI in 1975. And heard of many more when witnessing to others. No, I didn't personally ask all of them, but I grew up in Grand rapids, MI, or "little Jerusalem" as some church people called it. Tons of churches in GR. In my neighborhood, none of the other kids could play outside on Sunday except from 2 catholic families. All the Dutch reformed or Christian reformed kids told me they'd go straight to hell if they did that. When I was in 8th grade the church I went to had us go to several other churches during that year. The one that was the most fun was a black Baptist church. That service was almost like the church service depicted in both Blues Bros. movies. But they treated us snot nosed 8th graders like we were royalty and this was less than a month after MLK got assassinated. The dutch reformed church stuck us up in the balcony and hardly interacted with us. We were the "heathen church" y'know. So, no I didn't ask every church if they were into hell motivation, but what church experience I had made a solid impression on me. By the way, the church I grew up attending was a liberal church. The main minister was on the Today show in 1971 saying he did NOT believe in the literal, physical resurrection of Christ. They didn't teach about hell, but they didn't teach about Christ, either. Liberals can be just as self righteous and cruel as any fundamentalist.

quote: It would seem that the offshoots are not offering anything different that community churches already have in place. So, why would anyone be attracted to an offshoot of TWI? I'll concede that churches have caught up with TWI in some major ways. Before TWI had large numbers of people joining them, churches all seemed to basically teach people they'd go to hell if they didn't stay "right with God" which really meant stay in the good graces of the church leadership. I think groups like TWI were a wake up call to the denominational churches. Hey! People need more from church than being told they could go to hell. Duh. Yet TWI proved you could have church in the home without the financial backing of a denomination. They were so successful that the churches HAD to notice and give respect. Yeah, their lip service was "It's a cult! Run for it!", but they changed with the times didn't they? Having been in a few churches since leaving TWI, I'd say they've lightened up on the hell stuff quite a bit. But those doctrinal issues are still there. Personally, I need certain things from a church's doctrine and I need certain things from the church's people. So... Why shouldn't anyone be attracted to an offshoot of TWI?

CW: I'm not saying you shouldn't have a thread like this; I just gave my input about it, my 2 cents. You probably couldn't word it any differently really. It struck me that you were just a bit impatient with mckeanj's questions and it did remind me of the sociology prof, so I opined, but heck, it's just a thread. One suggestion. Since the intended atmosphere of the thread (just for fun) has been interrupted, and since this may continue because of the responses I've gotten and given to others, it may be necessary to start a thread called "Bible or TWI - Take 2" or something like that. I'm sure several GSers will bite. I didn't intend to derail you, just as I said give my 2 cents. sorry about that.

When I took PFAL in early 1977 it was 15 sessions, foundational and intermediate. Class sessions were Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, and Friday, so the first 12 sessions were over in 3 weeks. During the next week, one of the extra days was used to do the day JC died and when Judas hanged himself. Attendance for those was voluntary. The unforgivable sin session was part of foundational PFAL at the time. It was later removed because too many new students became afraid that they themselves might be born of the wrong seed. In my experience, most new students were quite often exposed to SIT well before ever sitting through the class, and anyone who was freaked out by SIT had probably been tampered with by a church person who told them they'd get possessed if they SIT.

Yes, I'm part of a CG "offshoot" and we believe that VPW was a man of god who happened to sin in his flesh as opposed to a sexual predator who happened to have a bible ministry, which is what many GSers think. That's NOT idolatry just to respect someone for something. Some of the double talk on GSC is very subtle. Some people say that it's possible to worship someone even if they're not God; that there are varying degrees of worship, and true there is some biblical evidence of this. Then other threads accuse people of "worshipping" VPW, TWI, or PFAL with the connotation that ANYTHING that is "worshipped" other than God indicates "idolatry". Is there a difference between worship and respect or admiration? I'm thinking of 2 particular OT idols that were worshipped to the eventual detriment of those who worshipped them...baal and dagon. Baal was a weather god who was worshipped in hopes that the weather would accomodate the growth of crops. I don't know for sure about dagon, but I do know that dagon was a fish and that the major cities in the Phillistines nation were all on the Mediterranian sea, so it's probable that dagon was worshipped so they'd hopefully catch a lot of fish. In other words, these gods were expected to GIVE THE INCREASE. THAT'S what made it idolatry. Simply respecting a man's teaching or liking a musical group doesn't mean that I'm expecting any "increase" from the man or the group. However, if that respect or admiration turns into fear that bad things are going to happen to me if I don't ABS or something like that, THEN perhaps the line has been crossed over into idolatry and I know that this was happening a lot between 1994 and LCMs exile. I have yet to see any evidence of idolatry at the CG fellowship I attend.

CW: In order to participate in this exercise, we already have to think in terms of TWI does not equal the bible. That's a red flag right there. Belle: You posted on another thread that you got in TWI in 1993 and got "sold out" in 1995. So you can't even fathom that TWI was ever any better than LCM screaming marching orders at everybody. quote: It's practically impossible to have a genuine debate or discussion with PFAL adherents because they start changing the subject and attacking the messenger instead of bringing any proof or basis for their belief. Not changing the subject; rather, disputing your take on PFAL. Proof? You want proof? Right. My experience with PFAL haters is that if I claim to have gotten a prayer answered by believing or some other PFAL principle, they just come back at me with all this skepticism, and other BS, so it's really just a stalemate. Why bother going there? Skyrider: quote: A class.........from a obscure little outfit in ohio. A class.........where all your questions will be answered. A class.........that if you're five minutes late, they kick you out. A class.........totally regimented. A class.........where SIT is an ambush in waiting. I'm sure some people felt that way. People need their space. My first PFAL class didn't hit me that way, though, and same for many other people. Times are changing, though. I was flipping channels recently and on Comedy Central there was this comedienne who said a friend at work told her about a class that really changed her life. She paused and said, "Sure. I'll join your cult." Lotta laughs.

CW: I had a sociology prof who would try to manipulate class discussion. For instance,she would start talking about homosexuality and then become pushy about getting input from us students. And...NOBODY said anything. So she accuses us of being docile and reluctantly moves on to the next topic. The reason nobody took the bait, er..I mean...the reason nobody said anything is because she made it obvious that anybody who offered an opinion she disagreed with was walking into an ambush. Same on this thread. Sorry, but you need to be a bit more subtle, I guess.

In that movie "American Beauty" Kevin Spacey was paying his next door neighbor's kid several hundred dollars for a small bag of the high quality stuff. quote: OMG!!!!! Somebody else who remembers the "Fabulous Furry Freak Brothers"!!!!! I like the one where they go to Disneyland and before they can get in they have to be seen by the "attitude inspector" who stares really hard into each of their eyes and pronounces that 2 of them can go in, but the dark curly haired one can't go in because he has a bad attitude. The one who can't go in mildly protests only to be beaten senseless by 2 big guys wearing Mickey Mouse ears and holding baseball bats. One of them (FFBs) was named Freewheelin' Franklin, which is/was the actual name of a Hell's Angel, so I heard.

quote: how come so many leaders and researchers in the Way are named John? I heard somewhere recently that according to a poll the name John was the most boring male name. quote: The Way I believe was good but the downward fall took them out It sure was good for me. All these people who are intent on listing the sins of a dead man are simply trying to play God.

I like the Nelson giant print KJV. I received one as a gift before taking PFAL and every one I've bought has everything on the same page every time. That's a nice feature, if you read your bible regularly.