johniam

This thread makes me thankful for PFAL. Numbers 8, 4, and 3 are not applicable to TWI. I'll start a top 10 list for atheists. 10) or 1) You call yourselves "educated" or "enlightened" yet you deny that there is any intelligent design behind the planets, the human body, and everything else that is not man made and lasts much longer than anything that IS man made. Hey, no offense...all in fun.

That is the right date (11/4/48).

I have wondered if TWI is planning a lawsuit against GSC and is gathering info. I don't really know if that's a legitimate concern, but if TWI was trying to lull us to sleep, waiting for the right time to strike....who knows?

Too much. Wonder if the RC church would want to do an exorcism if they knew TWI had been there.

Orange sunshine is LSD.

Freud....Jung....friends for years.....cute. This is interesting. There is evidence that continuing to see LCM could be genuinely helpful to him, or genuinely dangerous for you guys. During my 18 years in TWI I had 2 very brief encounters with him, one before he was TWI's president and one during. Both times he was very nice. Yet, one poster has revealed that LCM came to a play rehearsal involving that poster's daughter. He sat down and just looked at her for intimidation purposes or something like that. Really creepy. This reminds me of the Ananias in Acts 9 whom God told to go minister to Paul. Even LCM used to jokingly read that scripture and had Ananias tell God "what did you tell him THAT for????" upon hearing that God told Paul a man named Ananias was going to minister to him. It doesn't seem like the risk is as great, but who knows? I echo what others have said; thank you for posting this. Anything you can tell us is appreciated.

quote: It`s an *inside* thing oldies... If lcm truly repented...he wouldn`t HAVE to be asked! Don't you love it? She thinks she can read our minds and she expects us to read her's.

Whatever Paul did for people after his conversion, it is definite that he pleased God. That's what's important. This idea that you have to apologize to every person you've ever offended is just another way of being conformed to this world. It gives the one demanding the apology control over the relationship. I personally don't want a forced or coerced apology from anyone. It's got to be their idea or it isn't genuine. As for Paul, I think it's significant that his ministry was to the gentiles. He didn't go around killing any of them. His conversion happened in Acts 9. The first gentile believers were in Acts 10. So for Paul to minister to the gentiles would eliminate any baggage from relatives of whoever he had tortured and killed. People are human; you can't expect relatives of those Paul abused to ever fully forgive him to the end of supporting his ministry. If Paul would have made a point of apologizing to everybody 1) he wouldn't have had time to do what God needed him to do and 2) many of those people would have just used Paul's guilt to abuse him and take revenge. That's just people. For those of you who are into demanding apologies consider Ahithophel, one of David's counsellors in the OT. He was Bathsheba's grandfather and he obsessed over what david did to her and Uriah the Hittite, her husband. So much so that he was instrumental in advising Absalom to take over the kingdom and kill David. Nothing David could have done would have satisfied Ahithophel. He wanted revenge, not peace. Any demand for an apology was a facade. Be careful.

Freud: One thing occurs to me that nobody else has touched upon. We're not sure just how much contact he has with people from the Way. We DO know that there are people from the Way who monitor posts on GSC. We call them the WAYGB. So it is very possible that already someone from TWI may have contacted him about this thread. Just a thought.

quote: I did relate to him that I was a " Christian" and a pretty traditional one. Before Craig was in TWI (1971) he was raised a Southern Baptist and his recountings of that part of his life sounded like he had been pretty traditional as well. Like laleo says, it sounds like he is trying to bond with you on some level.

quote: And how do either of you, CK & or Claude comfort the men and women that have been hurt by VP & other leaders of TWI? They DON'T! Nor are they obligated to. God is the God of ALL comfort (2Cor.1:3). He's willing to give to you just as much as me. If you're not comforted, it's YOUR fault. You're ultimately not really going to God for comfort. In 1 Thes. 4:13-17 it beautifully describes the gathering together. Then verse 18 says to COMFORT one another with the words of verses 13-17. Yet many church Christians falsely comfort one another with other words, like "he/she's in a better place" or "gone to be with Jesus". If the words which God says to comfort one another with don't comfort you, then it's YOUR fault! So what do you do? You call yourselves compassionate out of one side of your mouths and then spew venom and bitterness on those of us who recognize VPW's good out of the other side. Nice.

Freud: He had a pretty good sense of humor when he led TWI. Does he still, or does the "fallen from great heights" now dominate?

quote: He taught alot of us to think for ourselves, challenge everything regardless of whom its coming from. Many have forgotton that teaching and by their own error they got lead astray into harmful manipulative selfserving causes that had nothing to do with what VPW stood for. Alot of you know this , but not enough tell it. Make the word of God your own and be thankful that someone broke out of the traditional mold to teach us how to do it ourselves. quote: Again, Thankyou to the Family of VPW and all they sacrificed to help those who trully needed it, We are forever in your debt. Yes.

quote: So, how does one become agnostic? Do you just wake up and go "gee, what God?" or did you think it over slowly and gradually say, "nope, no such thing!" . . . These are honest questions - not narrow minded - just wondering... how?” Claiming to be agnostic, or atheist will give that person control over every conversation. It's a hard hearted response for sure, but as long as the door is closed there's not much you can do about it. Why do they do it? I can only speculate. They possibly feel vulnerable and have to have control over every conversation (with an ex twi) to protect their hearts. Perhaps they once upon a time felt so secure in their faith that they were sure they'd never again have to doubt their faith, so when the dirt came out it was as though the whole thing was a scam. Remember that the sonship right "justified" meant just as if I'd never sinned? Well, now it's "just as if they'd never been righteous". Like I said, it's a knee jerk response. Well, that's my best guess.

911

There's no "millstone line" in the grace administration. It's funny. Certain of my old man friends always used to refer to religion in general derogatorily as a "crutch". But really, a crutch is merely a prop used by people who can't walk with their natural strength. God's grace is like that. Undeserved favor, remember? No one can walk pleasing to God with their natural strength. No, not even Mother Teresa. Jesus said no one born of a woman was as good as John the Baptist, yet he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. So there is actually some individual who is least in the kingdom of heaven. Maybe it's VP. Maybe it's me. Either way, there ain't no millstone line. You don't think the Body of Christ is in the kingdom of heaven?

quote: Goey called you on it, and asked where these "MANY" people are. With no documentation, the evidence supports the idea that you just pulled this claim out of your burro. It's plain for all to see; if you and others want to pretend to be in denial about it, fine. But I refuse to argue about it.

quote: firmly believe in only telling MY STORY, and nobody elses. VPW and the Mrs. were very kind and gracious to me. And that's the truth. I had experiences with VP that cause me to believe, that he was given a powerful "gift" ie "ministry" or whatever you want to call it. I think that he did hear the voice of God at certain times, and did have a powerful capacity to "minister" to people. But I also think he squandered it, by allowing SIN to permeate his life. I don't minimize the damage he did to some of my friends. That's the paradox of WHO HE WAS. He could be wonderful, loving, kind, one minute, and mean, arrogant and intolerant the next. Is this any big mystery? Haven't we all had people like that in our lives? People we looked up to, who turned out to be dismally disappointing in ways that we were not aware of, in our naive youth? I have very mixed feelings about VP and the Way. VP in specific, the Way in general. I had always tried to be honest in telling my story. If Johniam, or anybody else thinks that is disingenuous, then welcome to life. That's beautiful! Not disingenuous. VP did good AND VP sinned. That's all I've said. Goey, if you want to "demand" anything from me, get a subpoena. I have no time for your silliness. The only one with blinders on is YOU! As for Mark's picture, I think he was aiming his message at people like me. So what? He is a proud member of a religion that thinks the crucifiction of Christ is something to be celebrated and partied for; a religion that has been misrepresenting Christ for over 1600 years. I'm not surprised he would post that. He can post all the pictures he wants; I don't care.

quote: So what if he cynically interpreted the Bible for his own personal financial gain and cynically interpreted the Bible to prey on women who looked up to him? At least he's not like YOU people, talking about him doing those things. It's one thing to list a man's sins; it's another to spit in God's face. That's where this always seems to lead. If VP did no good then nothing he said about God was any good. But if it WAS good, then it's spitting in God's face to say that it wasn't. I just see a lot of people here instead of running to serve, they're running to be conformed to this world. God: why did you become so hostile toward my people? believer: it's VP's fault; he had SEX in the motorcoach! God: what does that have to do with me? believer: uh..

quote:johniam, did you really mean to say that? PFAL did it? not God? or The Bible? but PFAL? I've said this before. If VP, not the devil, did all that stuff, then, yes, PFAL made the difference. I concur that there are many possible man made organizations that could adequately accomodate someone's desire to have peace in their life and some knowledge of God, but PFAL was the one which accomodated ME. It wasn't just God or the bible, either; what about the people who blessed my life? They were involved too. There's people here who credit GSC for healing them. Same thing.

quote: Jonhiam, where have "many" said that VPW "did no good" ? Provide examples please -- "Many" examples. You won't because you can't. Your adoration of VPW and PFAL has blinded you to what is really being said here by the vast majority. You hear through a distorted filter. My guess is that there are about 100 or so regular posters of 1,694 members here at GS. How many is "many"? -- 1? maybe 2 or 3 ? -- And who are these "many"? You speak with forked tongue. You use a phrase like "vast majority" yet chide me for "many". I think the word many is relative, though. The progression climbs from one, both or each, few, several, and then what? If we're talking about the whole population of the USA then you need millions of people to constitute "many", but on GSC I think 20 out of 100 regular posters is a "many". There are at least that many people here who have not one good thing to say about VP AND who act as though it is their moral duty to derail threads every time someone DOES say something that reflects positively or legitimately about VP. You want names? I can't recall ever seeing you yourself post anything positive about VP. On the extreme side, I guess Rascal comes to mind. One time I recall her saying that she thought of VP as a "grandfatherly" something or other, but that's as close as she ever came. Just don't say "eternal security" around her. Ex10 is more likely than not to jump on the bash VP bandwagon, yet she has said positive things about him more than once.

quote: In his own words VPW said that: A.Cancer was devil spirit possession B. VPW died of cancer therefore C. VPW must have been possessed. I dispute A. I never heard him say cancer IS a devil spirit; rather that cancer is CAUSED by devil spirits. Personally, I believe that the first person who ever had cancer was possessed and those spirits used that person's body as a laboratory. This can still happen, but that's not why so many people get it. I have heard that animals in the wild NEVER get cancer, but animals in captivity get it all the time. So the devil spirits must have figured out how to get cancer into the body from the outside, perhaps through the air, water, and food we ingest. Probably some "smart, educated" person "discovered" it like the idiot who made the killer bees.

quote: What....???????? Are you saying that God sent these angels to lie.......to get veepee to the truth..?? Yep. Check this out. 1 Sam. 27:8 says David attacked Geshurites, Gezrites, and Amalekites (unbelievers). Verse 10 has David telling someone he attacked Judah, Jerahmeelites, and Kenites (Israelites). Chapter 29 verse 9 has the same person David lied to calling David "as an angel of God". Gosh! I'm never going to believe Psalms again! David LIED!!!!!!

Eccl 7:20 there is not a just man upon earth that doeth good and sinneth not. OK, so VP did good and he also sinned. I have no problem with this concept. What I do have a problem with is that many on GSC have a "string attached" to their attacks on VP. Their premise, in a nut shell, is VP sinned therefore he did no good. They can list his sins from here to the bema and beyond for all I care: PFAL made my life meaningful.

I now remember there was an SNS tape dated approximately Dec. 11, 1981. A big chunk of the tape had something to do with honoring Ross Tracy for something, but the main body of the tape was for the 30th anniversary of the Tulsa "snowstorm". Somewhere on that tape VP says "must've been angels" (on the telephone). I never believed there was an actual snowstorm; just VP saying that God had to keep him there so he could meet Stiles.