johniam

I've always taken the phrase black and white to mean looking at a situation through a spiritual lens. There's a time to do that. For instance, in Hebrews it says Jesus was in all points tempted like we are. Was Jesus a woman? Did he ever have a period? Go through labor. Married? Have kids? How could He possibly have been tempted in all points...UNLESS. Unless temptation and sin are a lot more black and white in God's view than some here would have us believe. This does not negate individuality. I recall that VP had a different outfit on for all 15 segments of CFS. Plus having Tick on the set. There is nothing whatsoever spiritual, godly or ungodly, about hunting dogs or clothes. VP was expressing his own individuality. Over time TWIs legalism choked peoples' individuality. Many times WC was the mouth piece of this.

Yeah, to be fair, Donnie Fugit, who HAD to have hitched a lot as a hippie, told a group of us that he was about to pick up a hitcher ('79-'82) when God audibly said "NO!" so he just drove away fast. I hitched a lot between 1970 and 1976 when I got in TWI. I got a lot of really good rides, some of the 1000 mile variety. I was never corps so I didn't go on LEAD, but I hitched long distance a few times while in TWI without incident.

quote: That having been said, I wanted to make sure there was a record of the post, in case you had a second thought and edited. NOT that you known for doing this sort of thing-quite the opposite, IIRC. However, I wanted to eliminate any later possibility of "he said, she said". Having said that, I'll be leaving this alone for now. (Partly to allow others to speak first, partly because I like to encourage people being candid.) "Their logic ties you up and rapes you." - Sting

Y'know, this brings up a whole topic, WW. I started a thread few years back called Hitching stories. Evan and Geo Aar were about the only ones who had anything to contribute besides myself. There were a few others. But while I personally wasn't ever afraid of it, others had trouble. Once my 2 wow sisters and I hitched 100 miles from Rolla, MO (our wow town) to Columbia, MO (limb HQ). We get on the state hwy to begin and the family coordo is conflicted. Not scared, just stuck. She was the "leader" and supposed to be willing and able to do anything for God, yet she was clearly out of her element hitching. So we're on the road and there's a RR overpass about 100 ft away. She ripes up and says, "OK, let's believe to get a ride before we get out of town (2 miles away)." I countered with "why not believe to get a ride before we get to that bridge"? A car screeched to a halt before my sentence was ended which took us about half way there. In all my experience hitching I conclude there are 4 things that will increase the chances of getting a ride: 1) a pet, 2) a musical instrument, 3) a girl, and 4) the appearance that you might have pot with you. So I really don't know how much "believing" it took to get a ride hitching with 2 girls, both good looking. Last time I hitched was to the '84 ROA. Got picked up by a pimp in E STL. Told him where I was going. He was actually nice about it. Poor girl. But I've owned a car for the last 20 yrs and I've heard it's just too dangerous now. Too many nut cases out there. I do NOT pick up hitchhikers. So, did I answer your question?

Today I think hitching is dangerous, but back then I hitched all over the country way before TWI. So did Evan, George, and probably several other GSers. By the way, the first recollection I posted was a TWI deal. I wasn't "ordered" to drive but c'mon. Emporia to someplace? That was while in TWI. So NO, I don't think hitchhiking was "tempting God". Some of you are just wusses.

In March of '78 I was privileged to drive a Gremlin with 5 other people in it from Emporia to Columbia, MO all night. Several times I fell asleep for a moment. One time I fell asleep for a few moments. That time when I woke back up I was still on the road but close to the median. It gave me a good shot of adrenaline. The rest of the way I ran Rolling Stones songs through my head (anti retemorizing...?). It worked. In July of '75 (before TWI) I got off work at 5PM in Harrison, MI, drove 175 miles to Ypsilanti, MI, where an all day rock festival would take place the next day. I got 2 hours of "sleep" waiting with the others. After the show I had to drive back to Harrison and be at work at 8AM the following day. I took 8 NO-DOZ, picked up several hitchhikers who became concerned about my behavior yet stayed, and made it back to Harrison at 3AM. I reported to work as a summer park ranger at Wilson State Park at 8AM beaming and cheerful. Each of these recollections feel pretty much the same: just doin' what I had to do. I honestly don't think foolhardy behavior originated with TWI.

quote: Truth needs no defense foot-U-MEs that one is speaking THE TRUTH. Which, imo, is pretty darn arrogant. And THAT'S where one gets into trouble. I'm guessing you would be hesitant to just come out and admit that you believe Jesus was pretty darn arrogant. Didn't He say "I am the way, the truth, and the life"? Didn't He also say, "Sanctify them (His disciples) throught thy truth. Thy word is truth"? I only get into trouble with a bigotted unbelieving world. It's hard to criticize TWI without eventually criticizing Jesus, God, etc. Sometimes you guys just go too far.

quote: In your opinion, twi was THE Messenger with THE Truth, then? Not at all. The bible is a big book. There is so much information in THE truth that many groups can emphasize and allow enough of it that they can legitimately say they teach THE truth. Even churches. It's every person's individual choice who to fellowship with.

quote: Johniam, I'm thinking that Jesus probably never told his disciples "Truth needs no defense" if they asked him a question and also willing to bet that he probably didn't instruct them to use that phrase either. Of course He never taught that. He didn't speak English, ha ha. But on at least one occasion He showed them how. Remember Mark 9 when that man was putting Jesus disciples on the defensive because they couldn't heal his kid? Then the man tried the same crap on Jesus but Jesus basically asked the man if he could believe. He didn't go on the defensive. That canyon just became a crack in the sidewalk.

He said thy word IS truth, not thy word contains truth. If that's being narrow minded, so be it. TWI was just the messenger.

I never went to any corps meetings, but in 18 years I never heard that phrase used outside the context of witnessing. Either there IS a word of God which is the truth, or there ISN'T. Jesus says there is (John 17:17). But who's Jesus? He was just some cult leader talking about his 12 cult members, right? Gee, His cult grew pretty good, didn't it? He must've used mind control.

quote: do you have any recollection or documentation as to the when, the why, the how tithing/giving became law? ...and what percentages were dictated? I remember LCM saying in the early 80s "Under law God called it robbery when people didn't tithe (referring to Malachi), so under grace it must be grand larceny." IMO that's coersion, not love. Then in 1995 LCM was ranting on about how only 13% of PFAL grads from the previous year renewed their way mag subscriptions. He fumed how they probably were willing to pay for HBO, Cinemax, etc. but not for God's word. It wasn't long after that that I ceased listening to LCM. Most leadership I was around in TWI felt that if people were genuinely blessed, they would want to give, which made it their (leadership's) responsibility to do what they could to get their people genuinely blessed. No need to coerce with that attitude. I still ABS and people still put cash in the horn and it's not a big deal.

Oldiesman is correct; VP used the phrase in the context of witnessing. In my WOW syllabus it says to answer a question with a question in order to keep the truth of God's word on the offensive. Lawyers deal with accusations which are based on claimed facts. Jesus most definitely tried to defend Himself in front of Annas, Caiaphas, and Pilate. Paul defended himself in front of the Council, Festus, and Matt Dillon...er...I mean Agrippa. This strategy won't work every time. That's why Proverbs 26:4 & 5 gives us a choice. Answer a fool according to his folly, which Jesus did (Luke 15 and the latter half of Luke 16) or answer not a fool according to his folly (Mark 12) in which Jesus answered questions with questions. If you're witnessing and you KNOW that somebody is just not going to do anything other than belittle you and what you stand for, then you don't have to be so nice to them. Some of you are committed to bearing witness to your misery here on GSC. Are you going to be nice if someone belittles you for that?

My dad read the original Dianetics book in the 40s or 50s and found it interesting. He later cooled on it when he found out that 4 of the first 15 people who read the book went insane. Both Charles Manson and Sirhan Sirhan were into it. My brother was interested in them for awhile. I don't know what degree of commitment he had to them, but in 1975/76, about a year before I got in TWI, he sent me a 17 page application form which asked me in several different ways if I had ever been part of a group that wanted to destroy Scientology. The form also wanted to know not only the color but the tint of my eyes. Too weird for me. I never filled it out. They've always sounded dangerous to me. Nothing Christian about them.

Saw the new Busch stadium today. In some ways it's just like the old one, but the atmosphere is different. In the old stadium you couldn't see outside much; in the new one center and left field are open above the bullpen. The wind has more access. This could prove interesting for some games. Our seats were 12 rows behind the visitor's dugout. Direct sun on us all game. I was hoping to see Mia Hamm nearby, but there was plenty to look at besides the game, if you know what I mean. Usually Cardinal fans are kind to former players, but J D Drew was injured a lot when he played for us and one astute fan told him to go back on the DL. I will definitely go again.

quote: pants that stay up above the crack Not to worry. Two words. Tall T's. I get 'em from Champs Sports and that way NOBODY will see my er ..cleavage. quote: respect for elders Went to Ozzfest in '03. I was sitting down eating between bands and these young people asked me who I was there to see and they were actually polite. I was very encouraged. I wasn't always that respectful of middle aged people when I was a teen.

Tomorrow I am going to a game at the new Busch stadium for the first time. Not even sure who's pitching, but I can't wait. How they've stayed in 1st place I'll never know. They haven't lost since cutting Ponson loose. Watch. The WS will be the Cards and Yankees and game 7 will be Weaver vs Ponson. Anything is possible.

How about...Bear?

OM: quote: Their attitude became "we taught you this, therefore we own you". I'm not talking about 1980, I'm talking about 1994. Before that year, there were pockets of TWI people who acted like they owned you, but it became ministry policy that year. Craig said it best...."This thing is going to be done right if I have to coordinate every fellowship in the US." I think you know that I feel as strongly as you do that it was never a "cult" that "made us do their bidding" just so they could get rich. Don't have a lot of respect for that position. I walked in on my own and walked out pretty much the same way. In 1994 they started kicking people out for being in debt, being suspected homos, being unproductive, they would send people to your house to look in your underwear drawers for objects of evil, they'd make people account for every 15 minute period of every day, they mandated that you couldn't go out anywhere unless it was by twos....yeah, I'd call that "we own you". It wasn't like that in the 70s. We were mostly young and not very cognizant of being all things to all men, and yet God still gave the increase. Hope that clarifies it.

quote: "…Oz never did give nothing to the Tin Man that he didn't already have…" by America. Besides that verse having the classic double-negative no-no - I think it describes one aspect of my experience with TWI. I've always had a brain – for as long as I can remember - before, during and after TWI Hmm. Last time I watched the Wizard of Oz I noticed that during the final showdown in the witch's castle it was the scarecrow, the one who supposedly didn't have a brain, who figured out that by cutting or releasing the rope would cause the chandellier to fall on the witch and some of her servants. No, TWI didn't give us anything except the benefit of their knowledge. If none of that knowledge is worth nothing to you now, so be it. It's still worth something to me. Knowing that Christ's finished work made me complete, righteous, forgiven. Knowing that I have access to God 24/7. Some people who've gone to church all their lives still don't know this stuff. But TWI crossed the line. Their attitude became "we taught you this, therefore we own you". The "witch's castle" still exists in New Knoxville, but many of us have long released the rope.

What all this suggests to me is risk taking. Many successful and famous people got that way by taking risks. It is human nature to take risks if one's routine becomes increasingly boring. Why do people experiment with drugs? Why do people drive their cars fast? Why do people sail into the Atlantic ocean when everybody else thinks the world is flat? Why do people swim across the English channel? CW I hear you saying that TWI may have tried to manipulate us into taking unnecessary risks just so we'd be more dependent on them. For example, renting instead of owning a home. Plus if they can convince us that this risk has God's seal on it then it "must be done". I kind of admire that John and Hope refused to take any more corps assignments after a certain point. I really don't regret most of the time I spent in TWI, but my life is routine in many ways now and I'm OK with it.

I've read Wikipedia before on people but never saw anything like that. Reminds me of some of the X rated comix I used to read as a hippie.

Wow. Reading here about Curt Gowdy and other announcers made me do a search on Tony Kubek. I just wondered what ever happened to him. Here's a sampling of what Wickipedia had to say about him... quote:Kubek was the biggest cheerleader for the Big Red Machine, something Bosox fans were too blinded by their bean fartmist to see. Kubek, ever the blustery Pollack, had a love affair with Cincinnati Reds shortstop Dave Concepcion, something that wasn't missed by fans of Philadelphia Phillies madman shortstop Larry Bowa. Not that Bowa was worthy of any praise from Kubek; it's just that Kubek never acknowledged the existence of anything good about him, despite Bowa's higher lifetime fielding percentage and better range. Studies indicate Kubek suffered from latent homosexual tendencies and preferred South American boys. His love for Concepcion has stood the test of time. The team of Kubek and Bob Costas (backing up Vin Scully and Joe Garagiola) proved to be a formidable pair. A screaming queen, Costas believed that his humor lubricated Kubek's bunghole while Kubek's knowledge hardened Costas. There were even some who preferred the team of Kubek and Costas over the musings of Vin Scully and the asides of Joe Garagiola, as Viagra was yet to be tested and Garagiola knew as much about baseball as, well, a Today Show host. Can you believe that? My personal opinion of Kubek is that he knew his stuff but needed to lighten up a bit. Costas is OK although he can sometimes get a little preachy. Man, this is too weird.

Cardinals won today. Trailing Houston by 2 with 2 strikes and 2 outs in the 9th they tied it off Brad Lidge and then won in the 10th. Oswalt was brought in to pitch the 10th and threw 2 pitches to Pujols; the 1st was a brush back pitch under his chin, the next.....gone. The reason I bring this up is because I think there's a possibility that just released Sidney Ponson was causing bad chemistry on the team. They were playing the worst I've seen them play since moving to STL in 2000. Now they seem like the team I'm used to. I don't know, it's just weird. Houston is a GOOD team. They benefitted from getting to the WS last year. They believe in themselves more. I think Pujols' home run in last year's NLCS got to Lidge on some level, though. AL playoffs are going to be very interesting this year. Bos/NYY. CHI/Det. One of those 4 will be the "weakest link". Watch the team that wins the AL west go to the WS. That would be funny. What's up with the Reds? STL is trying to gift wrap the division for them and they apparently don't want it. Houston and Milwaukee are catching up. Unless one of those 4 teams does a nosedive or gets really hot, this race too will be fun to watch. Man, that David Ortiz is a bad mutha.

Like I said, lots of revisionist history.