johniam

quote: if those evil catholics hadnt been the ones to preserve it all through that period. Oh. God can't protect his word? Preserved? Yeah and they didn't let common people read it for themselves. They must've preserved it just in case someone like Martin Luther actually read it and challenged them doctrinally.

Abigail: I don't know if you still pray or not, but it does say in scripture that it is a righteous thing with God to recompence tribulation to them which trouble you. It doesn't say you have to witness to 50 people a week to qualify for this. Just a thought.

I can't remember the last time I saw a full service gas pump. Oh wait, yes I can. But I usually go to stations where I can use my card. Lately gas prices in STL range from $2.73 to $3.09 per gallon. Yes, I'd be PO'd. I don't understand why gas station employees do that. Don't they know they're not the only game in town? Who knows, Linda. Your word of mouth "review" of that station may lead to it's closing down.

quote: Christianity is about deliverance it always has been and always will be. Anybody who has genuinely experienced deliverance from God can see right through all the finger pointing. As far as the gates of hell not prevailing against the church, I think of the catholic church not being able to extinguish Christianity despite all their efforts during the dark ages. As to the topic of this thread, there was a guy named Jim Lowry, a Presbyterian minister, who spoke at Heartbeat festivals and ROAs in the late 70s. He was never really touted as a scholar, but he did say that in all the seminary training he had, that nobody ever told him he had seed in him until VP. Mark Olthouse Jr. son of the late Mark Olthouse and brother of the former Ambassador 1 pilot, got a degree in something from Calvin College in Grand Rapids, MI. They gave him a hard time about it because he took some Greek classes from TWI, but they gave him the degree anyway. I remember LCM saying in the late 80s/early 90s that TWI had no recognized scholars or theologians and that he didn't care. :)

I think it's the last on the list; a defense mechanism. It's just like a lot of the politically correct arguments. If you can't find fault with the message, chip away at the messenger, starting with semantics.

So that's the new name of the Children of God, huh? One of the original members of Fleetwood Mac, guitarist Jeremy Spencer, left the group in 1970 to join the Children of God. well, 36 years later he's still with them, and he was on stage in Cleveland in the late 90s when Fleetwood Mac was inducted into the R&R hall of fame. Their statement of beliefs was OK all except for the part about "spirits of departed saints"?????!!!!!

Look guys: I'm not responsible for making sense out of your error. I've stated my position, answered questions, it's simple, and if you still don't understand it, then you don't.

quote: But perhaps they're not, despite what you want. And perhaps they ARE despite what YOU want.

Belle: Hello! I already did. If not, please specify.

Emotions are man's servant, not his master. There's nothing wrong with controlling your mind. Remember the man born blind whom Jesus healed? Remember his parents? They certainly had emotions for the healing of their son, yet they blew off these emotions in favor of pleasing the Jews. Yes, emotions can be a barometer of sorts about certain things, but they aren't in charge, nor are they supposed to be.

quote: The addition of a third (or more) choice includes the possibility of being mistaken. There is no 3rd choice. The 2 are either it happened or it didn't. You chimed in with "it didn't happen but you thought it did". That's from man's point of view. In reality, it still either did or didn't happen, regardless of who thought what. Black and white thinking is OK, but I don't need it for ALL situations. This is one area where TWI crossed the line. I don't need black and white thinking to pick out clothes, food, cars, etc. But when I'm dealing with spiritual things, like salvation and eternal life, I want my choices to be simple. Consider that scripture says that Jesus was in all points tempted, yet without sin. Was Jesus a woman? Did he ever go through labor? PMS? Was he married? Have kids? How could he possibly have been tempted in all points as us, unless temptation and sin are black and white from God's view?

quote: "John, are you aware that you didn't answer her question? Any plans on actually answering it?" As already discussed, no, SIT is not a requirement for salvation, it's an option after salvation. A very good option, IMO. During the Living Victoriously class, VP said (on LV in God's peace) that every time he got unpeaceful he would wait for his next sober thought and just SIT like crazy. "It still works, baby! Every time!," he said. I would have to concur. Many times I've SIT under duress and the storm went away sooner rather than later. Why wouldn't anyone care to do this?

quote: Yes. And it's not just a feeling; it either happened or it didn't. This is a false dilemma. There are at least THREE choices: "It" happened "It" didn't happen You thought "it" happened even though "it" didn't This is not a commentary on the validity or reality of the experience. Reducing an argument to black & white often is an oversimplification. 1 John 5:12 - He that hath the son hath life, and he that hath not the son hath not life. Is this also oversimplification? quote: Johniam, do you believe that one has to speak in tongues? If someone does not speak in tongues, do you consider that person to not be born again? How about someone who not only does not SIT, but also does not care to? C'mon, you're a pfal grad. God never oversteps man's freedom of will. I'm glad the 12 on the day of Pentecost in Acts 2 "cared to SIT".

Bronson Arroyo update: Man, the guy even SINGS like Curt Cobain. My 17 year old daughter seems to have a talent for Berraisms. A Berraism is a spontaneously spoken funny statement which doesn't make literal sense. She's only come up with 3 so far, but check these out. 1) at the grocery store me: We need to go back a few aisles; we forgot something. daughter: I don't remember forgetting anything. 2) at home me: Have you seen (such and such)? daughter: The last time I saw that it was gone. 3) grocery store me: Should we get any more jars of salsa for you? daughter: Oh, no. I haven't even started on the one I just started.

quote: (Note that some translators consider "born from above" to be a better translation than "born again".) Yes. And it's not just a feeling; it either happened or it didn't. The phrase born again is not used that many times in scripture, but I think VP was right that saved = born again = received holy spirit as evidenced by speaking in tongues. I also think VP was right that our adversary does try very hard to convince Christians that their Christianity is no good, that they're walk is poor, etc. and that many church Christians really do go all their life not sure if they're born again or not. VP wasn't perfect, but he gave us plenty to work with. Take your best shot, WW.

How about Socks. He may look around for a few minutes and still decide to "call Digger O'Dell" though.

If I could have my own personalized license plate, it'd be... GR8 S8N Wonder if that one would pass in Ohio.

quote: "The Straw Man fallacy is committed when a person simply ignores a person's actual position and substitutes a distorted, exaggerated or misrepresented version of that position. This sort of "reasoning" has the following pattern: 1. Person A has position X. 2. Person B presents position Y (which is a distorted version of X). 3. Person B attacks position Y. 4. Therefore X is false/incorrect/flawed You'd know all about that. All your attacks on TWI follow this pattern. For as long as your posts are, you sure don't have much to say.

Aww, I was just there for the Bud Light.

I always thought it was kind of interesting that the pope got shot on the same day (Mar. '81) that the way mag arrived with VPs Our Times article railing on the RC church's compulsory motherhood policy and such. Does the devil use his kids as human shields?

Sounds to me like he could have been set up.

One thing about TWI that was convenient was that anybody you dated already shared a belief system with you. How important are belief systems and how do you find out what you need to know without ruining the date atmosphere? I think that internet relationships parallel traditional relationship in that, back in school you see someone you think is good looking, but you're cautious, so you try to find out what you can about the person before asking them out, or if you're a girl, trying to send obvious signals without coming off too forward. In the same way, the internet, like the school, gives the opportunity to "meet" people. You don't see what they look like, but you see what they talk like, and you can be attracted to their verbal expression just like you can be attracted to their looks. But in each case, you have to spend time just the 2 of you to see if there's anything to work with for a relationship to happen. Also, in each case, you can tell immediately if the other person is being too pushy, which usually signals the end of it.

Where is it illegal? Back when I hitched the cops may have forced you to stay at the bottom of the entrance ramp, but they let you hitch. Just today I saw 2 hitchhikers at the bottom of an entrance ramp. I'm constantly amazed at to what extreme some of you seem driven to always tie TWI things into a conspiracy theory. Lots of people hitched as long as there have been cars. Certainly during VPs early years. quote: On the one hand YOU say "Today I think hitching is dangerous"... then YOU say "I don't think hitchhiking was 'tempting God'" Yes, I did say both those things. Same thing about leaving keys in the car. Once this was a common practice. Today, it would be foolish. Things like that are always changing. My mother never told me not to hitch. She may have worried a bit, but my older brother (11yrs older) showed me the ropes when I was 16. We spent that summer (1970) hitching all over the west: Yellowstone, Zion, and Glacier National Parks, plus a week in San Francisco. Coolest summer vacation I ever had.

Yeah, whatever.

Tom: Did you ever hitchhike? Did anything ever happen to you? John Hendricks prayed for a Winnebago and a beer when he hitched and GOT IT! In 1979 I hitched from Columbia, MO to Fresno, CA. After 20 hours of hitching I found myself in Amarillo, TX. At 9AM I prayed; I said to God that if it was really HE who was getting rides for me then He could get me a ride all the way to Fresno just as easy as He could get me a ride 10 miles down the road, so I asked for a ride all the way there. One hour later I got it. 2 guys from Kansas had business in both LA and San Francisco. Originally they were going to LA first, which would have had them drop me off in death valley (Barstow) but they picked up other hitchhikers who were going to LA who annoyed the hell out of them, so they dropped those people off in Barstow and went through Fresno on their way to SF dropping me off 1 block from where I was going. Remember that hitchhiking was a requirement only for corps. Spiritual leaders who were being trained to be tough minded. I'll bet there were more of them who objected to rock climbing than hitchhiking.