johniam

quote: johniam, i feel sorry for anyone involved with psycho bus driver. Why? He runs things differently than TWI and every spinoff I've seen. He's not trying to be the MOG. He has classes and stuff but he totally lets his leaders deal with their people the way they want. He gets prayed for a lot, but I've never met him. Back in early June I attended a weekend fellowship in Tennessee done by John Hill. Never heard CGs name mentioned once. It was all about the word.

Sprawled: Were you in Called out?

I am interested in this too. It says of Cain that "in process of time it came to pass" that Cain made his offering. Contrast that to Abel bringing of the firstlings, the BEST, of his flock. Sounds to me like Cain did a half hearted effort when he prepared his offering while Abel gave it his best effort. Come to think of it, Cain was the elder of the two. He probably got first choice of jobs. He may have wanted to be a tiller of the ground rather than a keeper of sheep just to avoid the fecal clean up if for no other reason. And after God did not respect his offering it doesn't say God never would have given him another chance. Other things about that chapter I wonder about, but all for now.

Whoops. Double D, the verses about if satan knew...etc. are 1 Corinthians 2:7,8. Also check out 1 Timothy 3:16. and without controversy great is the mystery of godliness the following word God is a trinitarian forgery. It should be the word which. ...mystery of godliness which was... 1)manifest in the flesh, (Acts 2 where the 12 spoke in tongues) 2)justified in the spirit 3)seen of angels 4)preached unto the gentiles 5)believed on in the world, and 6)received up into glory (1 Thessalonians 4:13-17...Christ comes BACK!). This verse gives the entire range of the mystery, beginning to end. If the devil had had any clue that you as a Christian were going to have Christ in you, he certainly would not have had Jesus crucified.

Double D: OK. Romans 16:25,26 starts it. Then check out Eph. 3:1-12. Jesus didn't know he died for gentiles too until after his ressurection. Paul got the nod to reveal it, but Peter practiced it in Acts 10 when he ministered to a gentile household. There is much documentation that this Jew/gentile one body stuff was a serious challenge to many Christians at that time, but many others handled it well. I mean, think about it. It would be hard to practice charity on someone you thought was equal to a dog.

I know John Hill. He's a good guy. Is. Present tense. You talk about him like he's got cancer just cause he's with Geer. Ridiculous.

You guys are pretty judgemental.

Could it be that all worship is serving, but all serving is not worship?

Mom liked you best!!!! There was an exchange between David and one of his older brothers not long before David killed Goliath. All Israel was afraid of Goliath and David got close enough to hear his blasphemies and the older brother said something like "I know thy naughty mind!" Classic. My 2 sons have the sibling rivalry thing going.

I liked a lot of it. One of my favorite TWI bands that doesn't get much mention was Glad Tidings. During the ministry year 77/78 Joyful Noise went on the road and GT was the "house band" at TWI. I loved hearing them every week on SNS tapes. Dan Moran is a terrific songwriter. There was a lot of talent in that band. Oddly enough, the last time they played was during the pre teaching time one night at ROA '81. They were all dressed in black. Branded was formed in fall of '81. They were good, but the forming of that group effectively ended the existance of both Glad Tidings and Joyful Noise. Recently I bought SNS tape #1061 from Catcup. It was done on Burn the Ballast day of 1981. VP was back at HQ for the first time in 2 months so they had a special way prod night. Heike Pekkarinan (sp) and the children's choir from Rome City did 3 songs, Ted Ferrell did "Attic of your mind", and then Joyful Noise plus Joe Fair did "One by one" and "Don't stop speaking". No other version I've heard of either of those songs is as good IMO. The girls harmonized on the chorus of 'One by one' plus a super lead solo by Socks plus Brian getting the low tones of his piano to reverberate on the words 'reach', 'touch', and 'help' ...I swear, every time I listen to that tape I get chills. I think it's kind of petty to criticize way prod just because they didn't have lucrative contracts with major recording labels. However, I will concede that later that year began the downward spiral that led to the stiffness that is now way prod. Branded, as I say, ended Glad tidings and joyful Noise and began a trend where every song and every lyric was micro managed along with everything else. Art of any kind is tainted if it has to be filtered through a controlling agenda. That's what eventually happened in TWI; people no longer wrote songs inspired by God. It had to be double checked by leadership. Eeewwww. For example the smear job Stevie Kay's 'Witness of the stars' got in the name of spiritual purity. Boop! Out went the button.

Yep. It's all politics. You're only a "cult" if you're taking money out of a big church's collection plate. We ought to make T shirts that say "I was in TWI when it was a CULT!"

quote: Ok, I believe that, concerning the initial question on the table, the question as to what the Bible says on the subject, Again, the bible says nothing directly on the subject. It doesn't say abortion is or is not murder. There was no such surgical procedure at that time. You got me on the verses in Luke 1. So sometime between verse 35, where Jesus in utero is called a holy thing, and verse 41 where the babe leaped in Elisabeth's womb God considered John the Baptist in utero a babe. Of course, it is possible that God called JTB a babe because He knew JTB would be born and do something for God, but I agree with Galen that God knows the future. In the bible God has always been willing to work around some human practices. Example: multiple spouses. Jacob, David, and Elkanah had difficulties with their spouses, but there is no indication that any of them were penalized for having them. Solomon's wives were an issue to God only because they led him to worship other gods. How do you know God isn't willing to work around abortion? Could you look Abigail's friend in the eye and call her a murderer?

quote: as I said earlier, push comes to shove, I think the mother's life is priority over the fetus's. Even in the example of Abigail's friend. Your position on this is not clear. Your position is still not clear. Are you afraid of offending women? C'mon, whose life is priority? Mother's or fetus?

I think it's a credibility issue. During my time in TWI it was TWIs credibility vs the cult awareness peoples'. I'm sure TWI has their spin which attacks internet credibility. It better be more convincing than "TWI = God / Internet = devil."

quote: so that sometime BEFORE 9 months he would be considered a baby, You don't know that. All we know is that shortly before John the Baptist's birth he was a babe, not a thing. quote: Which would mean an abortion at that point would be ending his life intentionally, which would be murder in the first degree.) At WHAT point? Shortly before his birth? or anytime before his birth? quote: So Jesus, at the time of "the Annunciation" (Gabriel visiting Mary) was referred to as a "hagios", and I NOW am referred to as a "hagios". What do you NOW have to do with Jesus in utero? I'm not really trying to pick a fight with you; as I said earlier, push comes to shove, I think the mother's life is priority over the fetus's. Even in the example of Abigail's friend. Your position on this is not clear. I have 3 kids. All 3 were born at home with a midwife. Our 3rd had the cord wrapped around his neck several times by the time he got to the birth canal. The midwife caught it and stuck 2 fingers in there and pryed the cord away from his neck so that he wouldn't suffocate when he crowned. I was there. Knowing what he has grown into, I don't even want to think of the idea of someone drilling a hole in his head at that moment thus ending his life, but I would have preferred that over having my wife die. You got kids, Wordwolf?

Nothing like the state legally hijacking our kids.

VeganXTC: Fruit departing means she had a miscarriage. Only after that do we read about mischief.

quote: What I don't understand is what is meant by "mischief" in Exodus 21:22 and 23. No mischief means payment, but mischief means life for life. What is mischief? Does it mean death? And who's death? The mother? The child? VP did teach that mischief meant the woman dies, in which case the man dies too who caused her death. If no mischief follow means the woman does not die, but in God's view, the woman's life is more important than her "fruit" as I read it. What puzzles me is when it says according as the woman's husband will lay upon him in verse 22. That leaves a lot to the imagination. I guess the woman's husband can't kill the guy, but he can probably beat him up pretty good.

quote: According to the blue letter bible concordance, the phrase "that holy thing" is the single Greek word hagios - "thing" was added by the translators, and therefore has no authority. It's been awhile since I read this, but yes the only greek for holy thing is hagios, yet in Bullinger's Lexicon and concordance to the NT he says the word hagios is neuter, hence the word thing. What? Are you pro life?

Abby: I can see why you thought what you did. I did say no partial birth abortions. I think a simple enforcible law like I described would cover most situations, but push comes to shove, I think the mother's life is priority over the fetus's. I bet Jacob and Rachel would've had one if it was possible then.

Exodus 21:12 says you kill someone, you die. Verse 22 covers the woman who loses her fetus.

I just did the death clock for VP. I had him at 6' 0" and 240 lbs for his BMI and had him in normal mode and according to that he died on Dec. 24, 1987. If anyone knows his actual height and weight maybe it could be more accurate.

For level 8 I aim for the lower right side of the water cooler. That is, as soon as I see the red climb up the arrow I immediately move the cursor to a spot at the lower right side of the water cooler and try to time the release so it a) has some speed and b) doesn't arc too high. It usually will have the ball go through the office door but all I can do is hope the ball bounces and ricochets and ends up in the bin. If there's a way to control the bouncing after the ball is in the office I haven't figured it out. Yeah, just tried it. It worked for level 10 as well.

quote: if you could make law, Johniam, my best friend from high school would be dead now. She had a partial birth abortion, to abort a baby she desperately wanted, one she spent several years doing infertility treatments to conceive. She did it because she would have died, had she not. Ummm.... quote: If I could make law, I'd say all abortions must be performed before the end of the first trimester (13 weeks) the only exception being if a doctor concluded that the mother's life would be in danger later than that Abby, I believe that my law would allow for your friend's treatment. Her life was in danger, right?

God says nothing directly on the subject. I believe what VP taught, that abortion is not murder. Why? 1) In Eph. 1:4 it says God chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, meaning that He knew who was going to survive the womb and everywhere else prior to getting born again. 2) In Acts 4:30, AFTER Jesus was born, he is called a holy CHILD. In Luke 1:35, BEFORE Jesus was born, when he was in utero, he is called a holy THING! Some versions of the bible tweak that verse to say holy one or holy child, but the greek is neuter, according to Bullinger. If it's neuter then it's not male or female. If it's not male or female it's not a child. I get mildly annoyed seeing those bumper stickers which say 'It's a child, not a choice'. If I had the means or the inclination I might alter the message to 'It's a fetus, not a child'. 3) To be fair, when John the baptist was about to be born it says the BABE leapt in Elisabeth's womb. There. No partial birth abortions. If I could make law, I'd say all abortions must be performed before the end of the first trimester (13 weeks) the only exception being if a doctor concluded that the mother's life would be in danger later than that and that any doctor found to fraudulently sign off on that would permanently lose his med license. 4) Any hospital will tell you that worldwide, one out of 4 pregnancies miscarry. So who's the murderer? God? I don't think abortions should be available at 7/11 at 3AM without a parent of a minor child's consent, but I don't think abortion is murder.