johniam

person A - this is my opinion. person B - I'm offended! A - So what? B - So apologize to me. A - Why? B - Because I'm morally superior to you and you need to validate my feeling offended if you want this to go away. A - Want what to go away? B - Me! A - So you think that because I offended you that you now have the right to harass me until I chant this fake apology just so everybody will concur that you're morally superior to me? B - Huh? A - Makes perfect sense to me. I'm sorry!

Rascal: TWI did teach gun safety to the corps at one time. Wonder what would've happened if you put the gun in the collection plate.

quote: .......around 1991 or so, Ian was dropped from active corps (and clergy status). Don't know the reasons and all.......but he seemed to stay somewhat involved with twi. Hmm. Didn't know that. His divorce happened around 1991. Wonder if that had anything to do with it. He married my wife and I, well, performed the ceremony. My wife finally got up the nerve to call him a few years ago; first time since we left TWI. He was pleasant.

quote: Next weekend it is gun safety, Gun safety!! You must be a para-military cult!! Just kidding.

I think Donnie Fugit was in the zero corps. Can't remember where I heard it. I know he ended up in the 5th corps. As of a few years ago Ian Murphy is still in TWI. Wasn't he 2nd corps?

quote: According to the Nation of Islam (NOI), Yakub (also spelled Yacub or Yakob), was an evil scientist responsible for creating the white race — a race of devils, in their view. Yakub created white people by a process of "grafting" from the original black population of the world. It took 600 years for Yakub and his successors to fully whiten his creations. If the NOI is stupid enough to believe that, then no wonder they have some of the problems they have.

quote: You said in an earlier post that he used to go to Mass with your sister-in-law. Did you think he was playing with fire when he said the Rosary? Is praying to saints that much different than seeking guidance from Native American spirits? I seriously doubt my bro was anything more than a spectator at mass. We weren't raised catholic. My dad was an atheist and my mom was ultra liberal. Yesterday was the 10th anniversary of my bro's first wife's death. His current wife at that time was his special ed daughter's teacher. She is catholic and not overbearing. But I can't picture my bro doing rosary beads or praying to anything.

I'm probably going to lose respect from some here for this, but, as I said earlier, I'm still of an advanced class mind. That's a round about way of saying that I think devil spirits may be involved with someone who says they communicate with "spirits" of dead people. I think my brother is playing with fire. I think Morrison was playing with fire. It's one thing to be trained in the use of explosives and pyrotechnics; it's another thing to just be playing with matches in a combustible area. This doesn't mean that I think ALL native American beliefs are that way. Nothing wrong with respecting nature. I just think my bro is in danger and I don't know what to do about it.

Once again TWI as a whole is blamed for a few loose cannon leaders. I left in '94; maybe it was more than a few after that. I know some leaders used to say renew your mind just to coerce people into doing what they wanted them to do. That's like Moe of the 3 stooges saying mingle or I'll mangle. I agree with the posters who say renewing the mind is about how we think first; especially about other people. It says the love of God constraineth us. It does not say the love of God barks orders at us.

The only things missing from the video with the girl were her head spinning around, pea soup being spit, and a crucifix being...well, um...

quote: Personally, I wouldn't want to dismiss the spiritual beliefs of the Native Americans out of hand... I have studied some of their beliefs and read accounts of many of their experiences...and I think that God worked in the hearts of these people. Do I believe everything that they propound?...no. But I also question many things that are supposedly "Christian". I suppose a common respect for another's beliefs would be appropriate. They believe in the "Great Spirit"...I would give him his space in his endeavor to experience his own spirituality... Interestingly, the very day the incident happened, we all saw a presentation with NAs which included dancing chanting and semi worship. The speaker did refer to a "supreme spirit". Those weren't his exact words, but they were along those lines. My brother didn't give me any space at all. He said I was egotistical for referring to God as 'he', or 'Father'. WTF??? I'm trying to use the Galatians 6:1 litmus test here (if you see a brother overtaken in a fault, consider yourself lest you be tempted). I know that's talking about a spiritual brother, not flesh, but that's as good an example as I can think of giving someone their space. I know that while in TWI, I witnessed to many people and I'm sure I came off to some as overbearing, and those were total strangers. So I'm willing to give him that space. Besides, he lives 1500 miles away from me; I don't have to see him at all. If my wife can't casually ask him if he's seen a certain movie without him flying into a rage, I'm surprised he ever goes out in public. I've wanted to discuss this with SOMEONE for quite awhile. I considered my sisters, but there's that thing where if you have a problem with someone you're supposed to discuss it with HIM FIRST, not others. I saw GSC as an impartial 3rd party. Actually, you guys have been nicer to me about this than I thought you'd be. He has made no effort to contact me so right now it's a stalemate. He could very well think I owe HIM an apology. I guess I'm not unwilling to break the ice and send him an email, but I'm not going to apologize until he hears my pov and some dialogue ensues. He really wasn't capable of listening to us on the night in question. Glad my kids weren't there to see it. Once again, thank you all for your candid input. I don't often request this from GSC and I really do appreciate all your words.

I'm not familiar with the "Left behind" books. You make them sound kind of like that book 'The late great planet earth' by Hal Lindsay that was popular in the 70s and 80s. That book and the subsequent movie were definitely fear motivation. Interesting parallel "left" behind as in left wing. Hmm. As for the video game, so freaking what? I let my kids read Harry Potter books and watch the movies. Our generation survived 'Bewitched'. I just told them if they ever know a kid whose car can fly, I want to know about it. I hear believers express concern about that stuff. Doesn't bother me.

Ha ha. I love it!

Thank you for all your replies. My brother has shown me many kindnesses over the years. One time I climbed up a tree. When tree forts were built, they would nail pieces of wood 1" by 2" by 8" every foot or so up the tree to the fort. I was climbing one and I grabbed a piece of wood and it wasn't secure and I fell 12 feet on my back. I remember my bro running full speed to make sure I was all right...I was. He took me out picking berries, climbing trees, etc. I love the guy. I don't ever expect to convert him to my particular belief system, but he crossed the line. quote: I would be very concerned about the anger he displayed toward your wife if this is uncharacteristic of him. Yes, it WAS uncharacteristic of him. There was a desperate quality about him. I feel like God is telling me to not over react to him though. quote: And that's really only one story, mostly of ONE nation-the Cherokee. Interestingly, THAT'S the tribe I'm told our ancestry is from. Again, thank you for the replies.

I was startled to discover that my brother, who is 11 years older than I am and who I've always been closer to than my other 2 siblings, is deeply involved in Native American "spirituality". He believes... 1) that he is in regular communication with the "spirits" of deceased native Americans, although he doesn't hear audible voices and claims that said spirits communicate without using words ??? 2) that these spirits have "welcomed him" into their fold, even though he is only 1/32 native American (I find this interesting because of all the 32/32 native Americans who live in poverty and alcoholism on those reservations compared to my brother, who is a salaried computer technician who lives in air conditioned comfort in Phoenix) 3) his historical analysis says that the bible is a book written by dumb Arabs who poisoned Europe with it which led to bible poisoned Europeans (the white eyes) coming over here and pillaging the "true spiritual race" the native Americans, who walked over here from Russia on the north Pacific ice 13,000 years ago The reason this became an issue is, our 2 families met and spent a week at Grand Canyon Ntl. Park a year and a half ago. All went well until the last night we were there. Myself, my wife, and my bro were in the lounge at the south rim. One of the TVs had a Mel Gibson movie on. So my wife asks him if he happened to see the movie Passion of the Christ. I have never made any serious attempt to convert him or his kids to TWI. I'm guessing that he thought my involvement with TWI was a phase like my drug days so he bit his tongue but after 30 years and I'm still going to fellowships he finally figured out it wasn't just a phase. I know he's had respect for native American heritage for a long time, but what I'm about to reveal was quite unexpected. So my wife asked him that question and he flew into a raging, hate filled tirade about how "diametrically opposed" our belief systems were and how offended he was that my wife asked him that question. He really was an a$$hole to us. Came out of nowhere. His wife was not there and a few weeks later his wife told my wife that he used to come to mass with her, but stopped and that his wife knew nothing about the incident. I really don't want this to be a discussion about the validity or not of his beliefs or mine, but I admit that I think his beliefs are out there and it would be easy for me to say screw you/have a nice life to him. But one of the recurring complaints here about TWI is that they "took us away from our families" and I'm probably going to see my bro again at some point, so I just want to try to understand more than I do now. Kind of ironic that now I'm tempted to treat him like HE'S in a cult. One thing I'm concerned about is, I recently read a book about Jim Morrison and he had a childhood experience that may have shaped a lot of his thinking. He was 4 and his parents were driving him from Albuquerque, NM to Santa Fe at dawn. A pickup truck carrying Indian workers to a job site collided with a car causing the Indian workers to be thrown from the truck causing several of them to die. Young Jim watched in semi horror as the car he was in slowly rode around the bodies. He later came to believe that one of the dying Indians was a shaman (medicine man) and that his spirit entered into Jim at that moment. This is referred to at the conclusion of the Doors song 'Peace frog' off the Morrison Hotel recording He says "Indians scattered on dawns highway; bleeding ghosts crowd the child's fragile eggshell mind". Some of Morrison's movements on stage were as copying the movements of an Indian shaman during a ceremony. Being still of an advanced class mind, I wonder if he was doing something dangerous by that. Although there is no evidence that Morrison's belief had any direct relation to his death, there is definite evidence that these beliefs drove him to act the way he did socially. I'm very concerned about my bro at this point. Any suggestions?

quote: Johniam, that obeying leadership crap started way before the reign of the big forehead. I don't know how many times I heard VPW say "the man of God's suggestion was tantamount to a command," and it was abundantly clear he was referring to himself. I never heard VP say it, but I've heard others say it and I saw people mimic reverends even to the ridiculous degree of trying to copy their voices. I was never confronted about why I didn't mimic reverends more. Whew. I just think there's a difference between being told to respect leadership and being told that it's "impossible" to obey God without first obeying leadership and it was when my leadership got forceful about it that I finally jumped ship.

Interesting dream. My guess is that the small vehicle and its accompanying characteristics (no brakes, one wheel, not much space, high speed; ie you can't control it) is TWI and the nickel is GSC, and failure to make that turn is anxiety about possible wasted opportunities in life, and the next city is the point of no return. But you did return. How did you get enough force on the nickel to cause sparks if you were lying on your back? Sounds like you still feel some urgency about having been in TWI even if you haven't been in for awhile.

quote: you must have been gone by the time Craig Almighty laid that on the people in those exact, yes I said exact, words. I was gone BECAUSE of it. LCM didn't deal directly with me, but some of his faithful buttkissers did. I never heard anybody use those exact words, but I'm not surprised. Sometimes I think LCM just wanted to get rid of anyone who had been in TWI when VP was alive.

quote: The basic premise of this thread is still that "It is impossible to obey God without first obeying leadership." - as it was taught. Personally, that would have offended me and no matter who taught it I would have rejected the teaching - and I was considered leadership! There are too many incidences where a person goes against a leader only to do God's will... young King David comes to mind. One that comes to my mind is Ananias of Acts 9. Leadership was apparently too scared to do what God needed done. So a "certain disciple" was tapped by God and got the job done. Leadership didn't even need to know about it. I think it will be revealed that most if not all of us have at times done things on our own that God directed us to do that helped the body of Christ. I believe there were people I witnessed to who never came to fellowship or took the class but took my words to heart and eventually made godly decisions for their own lives.

quote: This is just another attempt to blame someone else for something unrelated to the field they were offering teaching in. If you wanted to learn that and did not go to the appropriate place now who's fault is that? Right on! Those of you who wish to continue blaming others for decisions you yourself made, enjoy this forum; enjoy your misplaced rage, but the price you pay is that you will be second guessing every big decision you make for the rest of your lives. No thanks. Sounds like bondage to me.

quote:Selective teachings were the name of the game. Oh, the catholic church doesn't do that? Or everybody else? Even a clothing sales person will use "mind control" on you.

Yeah, they showed that at my AC (Emporia '84). There was a ship, the USS Pueblo that was held hostage in North Korea for that entire year. Their spin on it was that the devil was so PO'd about the PFAL film class, finished in Dec of '67, that he had a temper tantrum and that's why all the stuff happened. No, I wouldn't know how to get hold of that.

quote: Maybe they should have had "manifestations" before dinner...I mean, isn't it supposed to be a message from God? Those manifestations are by inspiration, not revelation.

quote: Even the Research Team abandoned wierwille in the early 80s Who exactly are you talking about. The Nessles didn't. Neither did John Crouch, or Chip Stansbury. Schoenheit was dismissed the year after VP died. Rascal: When you gonna figure out you DON'T SPEAK FOR EVERYBODY! Why do you torture yourself? Did God tap you on the shoulder and command you to speak this stuff?

I have to admit that before I saw the video I thought it would be another case of over reaction...(a white guy said the N word! Lynch him! Lynch him!)...but after seeing the video that Dmiller posted the link to, I've changed my mind. Clearly, Michael Richards thinks black people deserve to be treated like 2nd class citizens. I'm basing that on his remark that "50 years ago you would've been..." whatever it was. I think Garth is right; everyone has prejudices, but when you make a value judgement on people just because they're black, white, male, female, whatever for no other reason, then it becomes bigotry.