johniam

Just for the record, I think the moderators have been fair. I've never complained to them about anybody. A few years ago I thought Gingertea was stalking me. I did 3 posts in a row on 3 different threads and boom there she was each time. I mentioned it, not as something I was afraid of, but as something I found amusing. She assured me it wasn't intentional. I don't know why Full circle is convinced we are following her around from thread to thread; probably she is being stirred up by other posters. She did a very strong post on the "why does twi have to be good" thread which directly disputed something I posted earlier on that thread and I didn't even respond to it. This bring up a point... Some posters want threads to be support groups where everybody agrees with each other; others want them to be debate teams where anything goes. The politics forum used to be one forum until things got out of hand there. Then they made it into 2 forums, one for the nice and one for the nasty, and that move seems to have worked. Like I said, I think the mods do a good job considering what they have to juggle, but I don't see how they could make any such restrictions on the open or about the way forums without opening a 'pandora's box that will lead to more headaches. Full circle, don't quit for our sakes. We ain't nobody, just exwayfers with an occasional opinion. You make us sound like a crime family or something (the Iams: HEY, we didn't whack that guy!) The reason I thought we might get ousted has nothing directly to do with you. I know someone who sent an extremely angry email to Pawtucket about a year ago. The email didn't contain any threats, but that guy hasn't posted since and I figured if he got banned for that then I might get it for what I posted to greasytech. Don't know. If being disagreed with by someone you never will meet is all it takes to shake you up, then I'm surprised you ever go out in public.

I don't know that guy, but I noticed he was on here earlier this evening. Probably realizes some of these people are just plain crazy.

You don't know if he did or not, unless someone died and appointed you God while I was napping. This is jeaniam. I forgot to switch again. My bad.

The Bible says that David had spirit upon him from the day that Samuel anointed him for the rest of his life. Certainly the men who followed him when he was running from Saul regarded him as a spiritual leader. My point is that some of the people that post claim that no amount of knowledge can erase hurting even one of God's children. By that logic, the knowledge gained in the epistles is outweighed by the hurt Paul did to many of God's children. I am not necessarily addressing you personally, but there are some posters who are out of control. This is jeaniam. I forgot to switch again. My bad.

David had spirit the way it was available in his day and time, conditionally. Nice to see you and the thought police on this thread. This is Jeaniam, I forgot to switch again. My bad.

quote: May I assume that the person you refer to here as the "only One" is VP? Actually, it's God (note the word One is capitalized). Jean's right here and OKd me responding for her. I want to interject something since jean and I have stirred up such dust and since we may be ousted soon. I have been posting since April 2000 on Waydale first GSC second. I've had 7 yrs to interact and think about how this website works. Jean had not been interested until very recently. Sure, I'll advise her about certain situations and tell her what I think she should know about certain posters, but she posts what she wants to. We just happen to be very like minded about this stuff. Maybe to some of you it has been a novelty for her to be posting, but you will probably write her off as the same kind of "Wierwille defender" that you regard me as. I still firmly believe in the Hope of the return of Jesus Christ which will result in, among other things, all tears being wiped from the eyes of those who inherit eternal life, especially those who have been wronged by VP/TWI. But I refuse to allow these stories to rob me of the peace I received in Christ through PFAL. I still hopefully have plenty of living left. If that makes me offensive to you, then it does.

First we're "pooper scoopers" then we're cat food (Iams). No pun intended, but we've come full circle.

quote: is it not a damned shame when people don't CARE? quote: And that my friends, is one reason why Wierwille was able to get away with his lying, his plagiarism, his abuses both sexual and mental. Enough people who knew, didn't care. We care; everybody cares about something. We just don't care about the petty little pathetic attempts to put us under law we see here.

quote: JohnIAm and JeanIam, I am tired of being followed by a VP pooper scooper, and I will NOT have a pair of pooper scoopers following me. Leave me and my opinions alone. You don't like what you read from me? Don't read me and certainly don't respond to me and certainly never contact me privately. Full Circle: How can I put this to you...this is an OPEN FORUM! HELLO!!!!! Nobody's stalking you. We just DISAGREE with you. How can I determine whether I like what I read from you if I don't READ IT??? quote: And we don't care much for stalking posters around the forums. We are not stalkers. We're just opinionated. I don't care for censorship, at least, censorship that's only applied to us and not others. quote: QUOTE(Danny @ Apr 3 2007, 08:50 AM) Where is a mod washer when you need one? This should be in Just Plain Silly. Or maybe we should start a sub thing and call it Just Plain Stupid. This is right where it belongs. Remember those commercials with an egg and a frying pan? This is your brain. This is your brain on drugs. Considering the path of destruction of Vic/TWI being collateral damage in doing God's work? Your brain is fried and you're a public service announcement warning others to just say no! Oh, so it's OK for you to call me stupid and brain fried, but it's not OK for me to call Full Circle deceived? Look, I KNOW you don't like me, but unlike other moderators, you seem to take me a lot more personally. If you want to kick me and Jean out of here, do it; we apologize for NOTHING! As for this thread, last time I checked, the "Good things done by VP" thread was already on life support, but I KNEW this thread wouldn't stand a chance.

quote: VPW had a powerful ministry. How do I know? Jesus Christ said you will know them by their fruit. Well the fruit of VPW's efforts was 100,000 people getting born again. 100,000? That's called the mighty hand of the Lord moving to save....regardless of what weaknesses VPW may have had in his life. Amen. quote: Then that would mean one of two things if VP was the real thing. 1. There is no God. Just the devil. 2. God sucks. THAT'S the deception. I hear the same crap from unbelievers all the time; if God exists why is there war,etc. Who ever guaranteed us a free ride? In sorrow thou shalt bring forth children....cursed is the ground...in sorrow shalt eat of it...remember? Spiritual welfare, indeed.

In a related story... According to News of the weird, a retired German scientist successfully bred huge rabbits (20-25 lbs). So the scientist sent 12 such rabbits to authorities in North Korea, each of which he projects will produce 60 offspring per year, each of which will provide a filling meal for 8 people. The Koreans believe this may be a viable solution to their hunger crisis. Can anyone say Night of the Lepus??? or Soylent Green?

quote: Please, no intrigue and no attitude. That's like asking Smokey the Bear to not put out a fire.

quote: Jean - I was just letting you know. I may have misread - but that last statement came across as sarcastic. Was it meant to be? Jean says no sarcasm intended.

I dunno, TWI was some peoples' Mayflower and others' Titanic. quote: Johniam, it seemed to me to be more than just a re-quote of rascal's sig. If that assumption was wrong, then I stand corrected and I sincerely appologize to Jeaniam for my insolent remark, and for jumping to an inaccurate assumption. No big deal; it just made me think that you thought Jean just sat down and went..."OK, UH, UH, I'll call her...uh, the...MISTRESS OF DARKNESS!!! THAT'S IT! Yeah, THAT'll teach her...heh, heh.." Naw, nothing like that. It WAS a "poke in the ribs" but nothing more.

quote: Everyone is still very protective of the group that they invested so much time and heart into. People seem to need to make it some how ok...they are passionate in their defense of their lifes choices...whether it makes sense in hind sight or not.... Anybody that thinks otherwise is some how ignorant or not spiritually sophisticated enough to handle it...etc This is from post #73, which jean quoted in post #87. If you were being sarcastic, don't you usually put stuff in quotes, or add lol or something? Looks to me like you think anyone who doesn't agree with you, at least on that POINT, is spiritually lame. You do have a right to that opinion and it's clear what you meant about the other stuff. Listener: Mistress of darkness is what it says under Rascal's screen name just like under mine it says do I have kids or did I read it in a thread. By the way, I've been waiting for a response to my post #60, the last post on p.3 which was a response to your question, or was that dealt with in your post #102?

I'll vote for 'Are the Dead Alive Now'. During his last SNS teaching at HQ, not even one month before he died, he reaffirmed that ADAN was the most important thing he ever taught, IHO. Before TWI I kind of leaned toward reincarnation, but his presentation of ADAN just made sense; still does. Once in a conversation with believers, we were all talking about which topic was more critical, JCING or ADAN. One guy said, "Which one has more devil spirits associated with it?", the obvious answer being ADAN. That song off the first Breakthrough recording paints a desperate picture of people trying to somehow get in touch with departed loved ones driving themselves crazy in the process. I haven't known many people like that, but the ones I HAVE known stand out. They just can't enjoy life; they're in bondage. ADAN delivers people from this. That's a good thing IMO. As for goos things, how about Aquilla and Priscilla.

As for the original intent of this thread...I don't NEED twi to be good; to me, it IS good, well...WAS. The first post and title of this thread presumes that nobody can just like twi without having a desperate "need" they're in bondage to. I disagree. I don't need fruits and vegetables to be good, I just LIKE them. So I eat them. (shrug) quote: “no matter who vpw was, 100 years from now no one will care or know his name. But every one will know who Jesus Christ is.” That's probably true. He's be a footnote at least as part of the "surge of religious cults in the late 20th century" or whatever they spin it as. But that doesn't mean he won't have had impact. During the 70s and 80s there was a group of believers in the Grand Rapids, MI area who seemed to always be at odds with twi leaders and were not esteemed very highly. Even before the POP several of them went to a church. Well, 20 yrs later they dominate that church so I hear and JC is not God is not taboo in that church. Plus all the spinoffs now outnumber TWI and are doing well. I personally think he's had one hell of an impact on Christianity. He hasn't been the only one, but what PFAL taught was taboo to many churches in say, 1970. Not so anymore. quote: I do believe God is big enough to accomplish things in peoples’ lives in spite of faulty doctrine, and if good happens it is a result of God and not doctrine. And if the doctrine is correct, well fine. Regardless God supplies the good. That's like those pharisees in John 9 telling the man who was born blind "give God the praise for we know this man (Jesus) is a sinner". If VP did something good, then remember to give God the glory, but if VP did something bad, don't blame it on the devil, it's all VP. Can't have it both ways.

quote: Johniam's response has been to try to get those other experiences silenced, and excuse vpw and others for committing evil acts, to assuage the guilt they incurred when committing crimes and evil acts against the brethren, for whom Christ died. Silenced??? Not true. Anything's possible. I dispute that anyone's evil actions negate what Christ accomplished for us. Christ died for VP too.

Jean, why do you have such a hard-on for Rascal? What has she ever done to you? Why are you so up in arms because someone has a differing opinion? You come across as an angry, self-righteous, bible-thumping pharisee. Really, you just dog her everywhere. What's up with that? She's sticking up for me, mostly. Plus Rascal "dogged" her in PMs, several of them. IMO if jean's a collie then Rascal's a pit bull. Hard on??? That's brutal. Do YOU get hard ons for women? Hmm.

The last post by jeaniam was me. I forgot to switch. Sorry about that. quote: Johniam, you say men taught you your belief system, but yet it's not based on men. How can you be so sure that these men taught you correctly? Could you elaborate on how TWI doctrine works? I ask because I've believe that some of their core doctrinal teachings are quite flawed. Maybe you only accepted the ones that worked, and discarded the rest. I don't know. I'm just very curious about your statements and would like to hear some examples of what worked for you, and why The following is a portion of a post I did on a thread called THE LAW OF BELIEVING which is currently on p.3 of this forum. quote: I think some people have this religious idea that it's not right to ask God for personal things like red drapes. At the '79 ROA VP said a local minister told him he's be ashamed to ask God for the things VP asks God for. VP came back with "if my God was as small as yours I'd think of getting me a new one". Once I was hitching from Columbia, MO to Fresno, CA. An all night ride got me to Amarillo, TX, still 1000 miles from my destination. So I freshened up in an IHOP and went out to the freeway. Having heard horror stories about police treatment of hitchers in Amarillo, I prayed with Jonathan in mind, God, if YOU are the one getting me the ride, then YOU could get me a ride all the way to Fresno just as easily as YOU could get me a ride 2 miles down the road, so THAT'S what I want, in the name of JC, amen. One hour later a van picked me up, 2 guys from Kansas. They were going to both LA and San Francisco, but were planning to go to LA first, which would have had them drop me off in Barstow, right in the middle of Death Valley. But they picked up 3 more hitchers in New Mexico who were more annoying than me, apparently. They decided to go to SF first dropping them off in Barstow and taking me one block away from where I was going in Fresno. Sounds like red drapes to me. In 1998 I lived in a house which had a motion detector porch light; you couldn't just turn it on and have it stay on/you had to be fairly close to the house before the porch light would come on. It was like that when we moved in. On halloween night nobody came trick or treating to our house because of this. My then 9 yr old daughter was upset and cried. I asked her to pray about it while I SIT. It was 9:30 by then and not much activity, so after 10 minutes of waiting we went inside. Not 5 minutes later somebody not only walked up to the house, but even with no light on (you could turn off the porch light so it wouldn't go on at all) they really made sure nobody was home. It caught us off guard but I called my daughter down and handed her the bowl of candy and she went outside and gave 'em candy. Then she accused me of calling somebody and staging it. (sigh) But that, too, sounds like red drapes, doesn't it. I related this incident before and one GSer ridiculed me. My answer is the same as VPs to the local minister. Listener, this is just the tip of the iceberg. God's real and He DOES answer prayer, not based on your goodness, but on your believing. I'm not telling God what to do, I'm acting on what God already told me I COULD do.

quote: John in me simply questioning the validity of what we are taught and the spirituality of those who taught us based on the fruit exhibited....you feel the need to brand me as a liar, pshycotic...whatever...and you feel compelled to make me out as somehow untrustworthy or having an agenda, so that my point of view will not have any merit..... That is the point that I am trying to discuss....in your need to believe in the wholesome nature of twi, you have to brand any who have experience to the contrary as some how crazy or evil...in other words, in your need to be right, you have to trash someone else.... This was the point I was trying to make about folks who had been in cults feeling so protective of their own particular group. No, Rascal, you're wrong. My belief system is not based on men, though men taught it to me. The reason I still believe TWI doctrine is because IT WORKS!!!!! It worked in 1977 when I first took foundational PFAL and it works now. The issues I have with TWI are because of what people have done. This is separate from what God has done. You appear incapable of understanding this. You accuse me of having the need to lash out in order to validate what I believe, yet it is YOU who does that very thing. I am capable of separating what men do from what God has done. You are willing to delete everything Christ accomplished for mankind and "start over from scratch" because of what men have done. Gee, if I'm going to start over from scratch, then do I need to reinvent the wheel, too? If I am capable of separating what God has done from what men have done, then so is God. Jean referred to the "post paid in full". It's actually a thread in the open forum. It illustrates that Jesus the Christ paid in full for all our sins once we accept him. When I read Wordwolf's posts I can't help imagine what Satan the "prosecutor" will attempt to do in accusing God's people of all manner of sin "day and night before our God". The word says God shall wipe all tears from the eyes of His people...no more death, sorrow, crying, etc. It's GOING to happen. Not in this life, but it's GOING to happen. Rascal, I don't try to appease you because all your rage is not going to make you any more peaceful. Even if every single poster on GSC sent you posts or PMs thanking you for "making them see the light" it wouldn't make you any more peaceful. You're tore up inside. You need an anchor of the soul. You have Xed out that hope because VP taught it to you. VP was only the sales rep; God's the manufacturer. Unlimited warranty. Sales reps can be fired, or die. VP didn't die for your sins. VP isn't the author of salvation. You need to humble yourself and ask God to pull you out of the whirlwind you're in.

quote: I guess what I am getting at is why do we tend to consider twi and its abuses any less heinous than those suffered by folks who were part of the peoples temple or the branch dividians? Why do we not hold twi in the same contempt? People were decieved, the scriptures used to enforce the evil required.... people were hurt, people died, scriptures were used to cover it all. Yeah, BUT...same for the catholic church. I admit that when I consider some of THEIR history, it's tempting to just write them off as an evil organization from the start. They pervert God's word, they murdered and tortured in the name of God, they even supplied TWI with 2/3 of their people. Do they admit THEY were ever wrong? But if someone says they're catholic and that they love their church and that they believe that's where God wants them to be, then who am I to challenge that? quote: never allow anyone to dictate how I am to walk with Jesus Christ and my Father. That's personal! That's MY business! That's MY responsibility! Remind me of the scriptures...great! Remind me of God's love...wonderful! Have fellowships around the Word...fine. But DON'T even try to tell me that you know better what God wants me to do with my life. I agree 100%. Rascal, you cross the line here. I know you have your reasons, but you tell people how to think and what God wants them to do. You really do. That's just not going to wash.

quote: Sure, I may have helped to legitimize the cult - This reminds me of 9/11. Those extremists who caused 9/11 feel that the USA is evil. Not just the politicians, but all Americans "legitimize the evil" so of course it's OK to kill 3000 plus innocent Americans. They're ALL guilty, right? That's how those people think. TWI was not 100% evil. Much good was done there. The WC participated in both the good and the evil. Like I said, they had an impact. That's what they were supposed to do. To lay a blanket condemnation on just WC much more all TWIers is absurd.

quote: The way corps program was ALOT more about indoctrination......than training. OK so all the stuff about the integrity of the word, and being born again of incorruptible seed is bogus because of VPs private life? Don't think so. What if it really did good for the true God to have thousands of people at the same time so committed to God that they would relocate, put careers on hold, witness all the time, etc.? What if the devil really was overwhelmed by all of it and dreads that it could ever happen again? Does God think any less of us because we don't do it any more? Don't think so. What are some of you going to do after the return if God gives you a reward for something you did in the WC? Are you going to get all morally superior to God and refuse to take the reward?

I've posted this before but I was never in the WC and the people who blessed me the most and the people who PO'd me the most, were WC. They were supposed to have an impact, whether they had leadership positions or not. Their job was to protect the word wherever they were. My first "collision" with WC was during my WOW training. It was before a meal and I was waiting in line and Dorothy Owens, the etiquette lady, was mentioned. I casually said that I'd heard some 6th corps say they didn't want to sit near her during a meal. This 8th corps girl says, "THEN THEY HAVE THEIR HEADS UP THEIR A$$E$!!! It's the word! Detail!" That incident served notice to me: watch what the hell comes out of your mouth around WC. In the years that followed, sure some WC let the nametag go to their heads, but many times they were helpful and loving. Right now I go to a fellowship which includes members of the 3rd, 5th, 7th, 9th, and 11th WCs. Without exception they are all glad they got the training. ANY organization that wants to increase needs committed followers to spell the top leaders.