johniam

quote: God does not love christians more, how very evil of you to imply such a Statement. it is about YOUR ego. it is about being better having something "they" do not. we do not have something unbelievers do not have , they can have it , God loves them, sorry if that disturbs your self righteousness I never said or implied any of that; I said this... The spirit of God within us gives us more ability to love than we had before, otherwise Christ died in vain. God is love. He loves all equally, but people are not so. If I weigh 200 and you weigh 100 then I have more ability to do a cannonball in a swimming pool than you do. That doesn't mean that pool manufacturers love me more than you. Each of us has equal access to pools as far as I know. All people have equal access to God. You are a woman. You have ovaries. I am a man. I do not have ovaries. Does having ovaries make you feel self righteous? Because you have them and I don't? Honestly, Pond, sometimes I don't think you're all there.

quote: We think Wierwille was profound because he had an effect on our lives. But our perspective on that is distorted for precisely that reason. I believe VP/TWI/PFAL had impact in the world. Sometimes that's hard to measure. Immediate impact may not be the same as long range impact. For example, the 1954 Brown vs Board of Education decision had IMO little immediate impact. The decision outlawed forced segregation of public schools, but it did not mandate forced integration. I didn't go to school with black kids until I was in 10th grade in 1969. Boston Celtic legend Bill Russell was not allowed to live in a certain house in the Boston area that same year. The decision's immediate impact was to switch the prejudice from the lawmakers to the realtors. However, the long range impact of the decision has played out much differently. Today, some feel there is still much more that needs to be done, but the atmosphere is much better. Many black people and other minorities have better job and educational opportunities than back then. IMO the 1954 decision was a major benchmark in that direction. For another example, Gerald Ford's passing evoked much comment about how when he pardoned Nixon at first he was villified, but even his harshest critics back then have seen that doing so was a good thing in the long run. The reason I believe VP et al had impact is because of the power of words. Any college grad knows that a good vocabulary is a powerful weapon. Plus, the bible is ripe with scriptures documenting the power of words fitly spoken. (Heb. 4:12, John 6:63, Psalm 12:6 to name a few) In other words God's word has impact no matter how it is paraphrased. You can just tell how it consistently cuts through the bs. The following is a second hand account that happened to a GSC poster 25 years ago. John Schoenheit came to STL back then and related this story that happened to a believer friend of his. The guy was driving around the city he lived in at the time while listening to talk radio. That day's program was about some individuals who had threatened to douse themselves with gasoline and ignite themselves if certain demands of their's weren't met. Most of the callers thought the individuals were altruistic and worthy of praise for daring to give their lives for whatever the cause was. Well, the believer finally had enough and stopped his car, went to a pay phone, called the radio station, miraculously got to talk on the air shortly, and reamed the callers who praised these people, calling what they did terrorism, and basically giving the word's pov about the matter. After he returned to his car, every single caller for the next hour referred to his call, some for some against, yet his words had so much impact that he rattled their cages and shook up their darkness. They HAD to deal with his words. That's the impact the true word of God has always had. Shoenheit told that story to illustrate how the word cuts through the bs of the world when spoken with boldness and love. So I really don't think the relative small size of twi is relevant. I don't think any alleged plagiarism is relevant. Either JCING is the word or it isn't. THAT's what's relevant.

quote: Do you think tats on women are gross? Should they be hidden? Or do you think society is pretty accepting of them? Just wondering... Personally, I'm used to seeing them more now than 20/30 years ago. The first time or two I saw a woman with prominent tattoos I couldn't help focussing on the tattoos and nothing else, but lately (last 10 yrs) tattoos are just another area of cosmetology. Like make up or hair styles or clothing styles, they are just another option for the appearance conscious. Some women with a LOT of tattoos look sexy to me; some do not. Society is definitely more accepting than it was a generation ago, and no, there's no reason to hide tattoos. That would be like putting a paper bag over your head. I follow the NBA and I liked to root for Dennis Rodman when he played. He didn't have tattoos when he was with the Pistons and he DID when with the Bulls. The difference is like b&w compared to color. I think today it's good that tattoos aren't instantly associated with only bikers and truck drivers. By the way, remember that Orientalism from pfal about God has graven thee on the palms of His hands and how nobody in that culture would have a tattoo on their palm because it would be too painful? I have a tattoo place on my window cleaning route and couple years back I asked the guy if he ever had a request for a tattoo on the palm of the hand. He said he personally had not, but he knew of it having been done. Apparently, technology today allows that to be possible.

I think reincarnation is a myth, but one of my sisters believes in it. She says there's a 'soul pool' your soul goes to before getting assigned to a next life. Maybe I should stipulate in my will to have a bathing suit in my coffin. Get it? Soul POOL? Bathing suit? AW HAW HAW! When I lived in SF in '73/74 I was watching some talk show and there was this guy who swore he lived on Venus 2 million years ago. If I was the host I would've asked him what his job was, what the climate was like, how good the beer was, etc. Can't prove he DIDN'T, though.

quote: twi was always a small-time player in the big game, a footnote in modern Christianity, something where an asterisk points to its entire existence. WW you can't have it both ways; make up your mind! Out of one side of your mouth you paint VP as the devil incarnate; out of the other side you paint him as stupid and insignificant. The devil is not stupid. If VP and TWI are such a small footnote etc. then why the deprogrammings? Why do Christian book stores and church bookstores have entire sections about cults, with many books about them? Why was TWI always in the top 3 or 4 most dangerous cults in these books? Your logic wouldn't buy a very good cup of coffee even at Burger King.

Nobody ever said non Christians weren't welcome here; in fact it looks to me like Bramble is iimplying that Jean's Christian pov is not welcome if anything. Nobody said that non Christians cannot love; in fact it looks to me like the title of this thread is implying that non Christians are most likely to be motivated by love, and Christians are most likely to be motivated by arrogance, if anything. Talk about bizarre. Love is like precious metals; its purity comes out when it is tested, or tried. The world hates God, yet God so loved the world that He gave, right? Our kids try our patience. Yet we love them, right? Certainly natural man has the capacity to love, but not as full as the man of body, soul, and spirit. Biblically, agape is an extention of natural man's capacity to love as much as faith is an extention of natural believing. The spirit of God within us gives us more ability to love than we had before, otherwise Christ died in vain. That's what Christians believe. There is ample biblical documentation that it is possible for a Christian (one who is born again) to not walk in love, but walk in darkness. Christians have a spiritual adversary who wants to trip us up and cause us to fail to walk in love. Look at all the crap that got thrown in Jesus' face. He couldn't even go out in public without all these idiots gravitating toward him. Yet he loved; sometimes it was nice sometimes it wasn't, but he's the one guy who never failed to walk in love. Non Christians have no spiritual adversary trying to trip them up. They can often appear like the coolest people you ever met...UNTIL confronted with the word of God. Then their nasty side can come out.

Arguing the quality of CES and Buzzard's books vs JCING is irrelevant. At least VP had the guts to write the book knowing what fur would fly. There's even another exway book on the topic: One God; the unfinished reformation, by Bob Carden. I hear it's pretty good, too. Weak argument??? Did you even read JCING WW?

by a friend...over a joint

I would assume not. The word 'overshadow' is used 5 times in the NT, it is always translated overshadow according to Young's Concordance, and three times it is used in the record of what transpired on the Mount of Transfiguration (a bright cloud overshadowed them, etc.). Tyndale's concordance is not really helpful; it does break down the Greek word into two parts: 'epi' translated various ways (in, on upon, at, unto, etc., etc,), and 'skia', which is used seven times and always translated shadow. Very helpful. Bullinger defines it as 'to cast a shadow upon, to overshadow'. Also very helpful. I have exhausted most of my resources without really learning anything definitive, and now my eyes are refusing to focus so I am going to bed. I will read your calvinistic explanation of the geneologies in the morning. Thanks, Spot. I messed up again. Oh, well, John can take credit for this post. I didn't say anything really helpful anyways.

Yes, there are, but Jesus told Nicodemus that 'Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God'. The name of this thread is agape or arrogance. Where thinking about the Word (Bible), which all of us do, may become arrogance is when we put what we think above what God says clearly. I do respect some of your posts and learn from them, but you don't really have any basis to be sure that what you think is right or wrong. Elevating what people think over what God says opens the door for abuse in many situations. It seems to me that was where TWI fell short; they decided what they thought, and then went looking for Bible verses that seemed to bear out what they had already decided to believe. I also enjoy the passage that T-Bone quoted yesterday but the woman in that passage argued with Jesus logically and even, to a certain extent. using 'it is written' as her authority. She didn't just go up to him and tell him he was wrong without having something concrete to back her up. I think your definition of agape has some points that are fairly accurate, outside of your contention that all people can attain agape, and I enjoyed that poem that JavaJane posted but there again I recognize the elements of truth it contains by comparing it to 1 Corinthians 13, and I think JavaJane did, also. Oh, dang it, I did it AGAIN. This is once again Jean, not John. I guess we need his and her computers. Sorry, all.

JCING is bluntly logical. I have long felt that anybody who believes Jesus is God will never understand some biblical concepts. VPs biggest concern about the doctrine itself was that if JC is God then mankind is not redeemed. Growing up I didn't go to a Christian church; I had heard the phrase 'Father, son and holy ghost' tossed around, but did not know that it was supposed to mean that JC is God. Even sitting through pfal session 3 I didn't grasp that people actually believed Jesus was God until the guy who gave me rides to and from class every session said he wasn't going to tell his folks that twi didn't believe in the trinity cause they'd freak out. So I asked him questions and then it dawned on me that yes these people actually believed Jesus was God. At the time it reinforced all I'd heard in pfal and in twig before that...that churches were way off the mark. That was virgin adult response to the idea that Jesus is God. I was laughing about it. I have to admit that the worst shouting matches I ever got into while witnessing were over JCING. Once a lightbearer brought a guy to twig who was with the Gideons. During the fellowship he noticed a way mag with a full page ad for JCING. Game over. During the last 10 years I worked at a place where one table in the break room was all Christians. I made up my mind there were 2 subjects I would not push: abortion and the trinity. Abortion came up a few times; the trinity NEVER came up. I got along with them fine.

If it's true that the geneology in Matthew is the royal line it seems logical that it would be Mary's line since there is no actual relationship between Christ and Joseph (stepson, I guess).

quote: To take something as perfect and beautiful as marriage and poison it like this ... it's unforgivable. I think it's an 'inalienable right' of both spouses to protect their marriage from outside predators. We left twi because they tried to split us apart. Ironic about Donna M. I remember roa '81; during one afternoon she taught about what it is to be a woman believer and she actually addressed some of the stuff said on this thread. She said she had seen women who, when single, were dynamic, bold, enthusiastic about life, etc. but after they married, they lost their fizz and became like Stepford wives or non persons, as stated on this thread. DM was not happy about this; said it was wrong. Remember the movie 'Footloose'? John Lithgow played a minister who used his influence in the small town he lived in to get a law passed that outlawed dances. Years earlier a fatality occurred which was blamed on a school dance. As the movie progresses it becomes clear that this minister is stuck in a rut. He says the same "profound" things to every group of people he talks to, his own daughter is mentally unstable, and he bullheadedly can't see his way out of a paper bag. All this time his wife says nothing. Finally, the kids, led by Kevin Bacon's character, find a place to have a dance that's not subject to the aforementioned law. For a time the minister is frantic, but then his wife softly reminds him of their youth. She doesn't say a whole lot. So the minister got together with his congragation and prayed for God to give the kids the wisdom to not let the dance get out of control, or something. His wife kept it inside all that time because she had to wait until he was ready to hear her. Not the solution for every situation, but worthy of consideration.

My wife knew what size tires went to our then car and I didn't; this was just plain wrong to our twig cordo. The picture by your screen name looks like my cat.

Hi, Caribou, Nice to meet you. I agree with the point you were making. Well this has been fun, as well as instructive. Does anyone have any ideas for another thread we could converse about, if we've exhausted this one? Jeaniam Oops, I forgot to switch AGAIN. There's never a phone booth around when you need one. Sorry, folks, it's me, not John.

quote: I can remember being conceived.. Me too. I remember going to the drive in movie with my dad and coming home with my mom.

Actually, the second command was changed. In John 13 Jesus said a new commandment I give unto you. He said love one another "as I have loved you", not as you love yourself. He had just finished washing their feet AND he didn't say that until Judas left. Interesting.

Thank you all. Yeah, good birthday.The birthdays with zeros in them are always special, but this one was significant because I have now officially out lived my dad. He died when I was 9; for some reason it's a milestone to do that. Thanx again.

Baseball is not about numbers; it's about achievement. Hank Aaron eclipsed Babe Ruth's home run total, but he did not eclipse his achievement. Bonds will probably break the record, but again he will not negate Hank Aaron's achievement. I agree MLBs credibility is thin.

quote: JC had the choice in the garden whether to follow his own will and run away, far away, from the people he knew were coming to kill him; or whether to stay and follow God's plan. He stayed and went through with what had been prepared since the fall of man. Was that "free will" or "predestination"? From God's pov it was predestination; from Jesus' it was free will.

quote: I was also considering the phrase, “law written in their hearts.” What does that mean, exactly? I still don’t know, The law God gave to Moses was written on tablets of stone. This was one of the many times God had to come into concretion during the OT. "Written in their hearts" is referring to the new birth. We now have God's nature inside us; we're not dead in trespasses and sins anymore. "Written in their hearts" is phrased that way to compare the new with the old, just like the new man and the old man.

In some ways it would seem to me to be both. Jesus Christ, of his own free will, stayed and did that which he was born or predestinated to do. As you say, he went through with what had been prepared since the fall of man. The problem involved with being obedient to leadership is that it was based on the premise that they (leaders) were ministers to us for good (Hebrews 13:17. Romans 13:1-6). I did know some men and women in the position of leadership who lived up to their end of the bargain, and also some men and women who lived up to that standard who were not in the position of leadership; but they became few and far between as time went on. Did we really have any obligation to obey leaders who were not fulfilling their end of the deal? I agree with Mark O'Malleys post, JavaJane. The past is the past. Learn what you can from your mistakes, accept the forgiveness and grace of God, apologize to any person for any hurt you may have caused them, if there is any need to at this late date, and move on. It seems to me that after these many years you can safely tell that voice in your head to shut up and go away. It seems to be more in the category of condemnation than anything else. Oops, I still forgot to switch AGAIN. Dang it. Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa. This is STILL Jean, not John.

Some of those people whom Christ identified as children of the devil worried a great deal about insignificant portions of the law and left the weightier matters undone as in Matthew 23:23 & following and Luke 11:42 & following. Some of those verses seem to get back to what you said about God placing a high value on the intentions of the heart and not only being concerned with actions. As far as the law of believing goes, I had no problem praying using the words of the father of the devil-possessed son; " Lord, I believe. Help thou mine unbelief." It may not be strictly accurate as far as a prayer goes, but I think God understands. Oops, I forgot to switch AGAIN. This is Jean, not John. Mea culpa.

quote: I had to hand in a travel form to show information in reguards to visiting my fiance who lived 4 hrs away, It showed my date leaving and returning,who was the FC, who was I visiting,phone info..every form was the same..same flippin info accept for date changes..I was only allowed to see him every 3wks,so if I wanted to see him again in 3 wks I had to fill it out right away and hand it in immediately after returning from my trip I left twi in 1994; when I tell some of my buddies who left in 1989 about having to account for every 15 minute segment of every day like that they can't fathom it. They are shocked that twi turned into that. Do they still have to do this? I like that song by Rush called Free will. Especially the line "if you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice". The implication here is that twi painted us into a corner and limited our use of free will, but so did any school I ever attended. So does the military. We all HAVE free will, but it's like free speech; you're free to say what you will, but there may be consequences for doing so. Those who quickly decide on a course of action have more control over their lives IMO.

quote: Neither case was a moral dilemma. In neither incident did God direct them to do anything that was morally wrong. Ananias was apprehensive about going to minister to a man that was a well-known persecutor of Christians: As I said in another post, the conscience is just a part of the mind that responds to the regulation or violation of our habits, whether moral or not. God had to work with Gideon as well.