johniam

What if you SAID you flossed, but didn't? Would they do random testing to make sure you really flossed? 4AM BLAM 3 people break into your bedroom and 2 hold your mouth open while the other flosses you to make sure you don't bleed. Did they do that?

Sounds good Groucho, looks real nice on a stained glass window, but you can't know God without the bible and you can't please God without believing (Heb 11:6). There IS power in believing...GOD!

quote: Really.. what difference is it.. "believing" or gambling.. In other words there's no God...believing is all vanity...there's no power behind believing. Might as well play the lotto. Not buying it.

I think the problem here is not that VP taught believing equals receiving, but that people used that and other scripture as a weapon to beat down God's people with. Liberals believe that if they act on something they believe is morally right, then good things will eventually happen. Key word being 'eventually'. I went to school once and there was this woman whose husband was killed in WW2 who was also there. I can't even remember what her status was, but she got to speak at the graduation ceremony and she was around a lot in a writing class I took. She was really hung up on world peace. She wrote this poem about how 120,000 snow flakes landed on a tree branch during a snowstorm. Nothing else happened. Then the 120,001st snowflake fell on the tree branch and it crackled and fell down. This was how world peace was going to happen. If you just kept hammering away by talking about it all the time, then sooner or later it would just happen, said she. She once asked me if the bible said anything about world peace cause she knew I was into the bible. I just said no. That's not how life works. Poor woman; she probably never got over what happened to her husband. But she clung to the 'pie in the sky' type belief that world peace would eventually happen. This kind of thing makes me thankful we were taught what we were about believing. Reality is not all fixed. We CAN control some of what happens to us and all of how we respond to what happens to us, and our beliefs and belief systems have a lot to do with that. I feel compelled to mention my hitching experience in 1979. I didn't come up with the $$$ for Advanced class '79, but I took the 2 weeks off from work anyway and hitched from Columbia, MO, where I lived at the time, to Fresno, CA. where someone I knew lived. I left Columbia mid afternoon; got an all night ride putting me in Amarillo, TX. at dawn. I'd heard a lot of war stories from my hippie days about hitching and cops in Amarillo, so I ate and freshened up in an IHOP. When I got back on the highway I prayed to God; I said, "Lord, if YOU are really the one getting me a ride, then YOU could get me a ride all the way to Fresno just as easily as YOU could get me a ride 2 miles down the road, so that's what I want, in the name of Jesus Christ, Amen!" I was thinking of Jonathan's declaration in 1 Sam that there is no restraint to the Lord to save by many or by few. Well, after an hour wait, it HAPPENED! These 2 guys in their late teens were coming from Kansas intending to go to Los Angeles first, then San Francisco. Some business deal <_<. If they'd stuck to their plan they would have dropped me off in Barstow, CA which is right in the middle of Death Valley :( . But in New Mexico they picked up 3 more hitchhikers who were apparently even more annoying than me. One of those three was especially irritating to one of the guys from Kansas. So they dropped those three off in Barstow and decided to go to San Francisco first, dropping me off in Fresno about a block away from where I was going. Think about this: if they had decided to go to San Francisco first from Kansas they wouldn't have come south; they'd have taken hwy 70 to Denver, then hwy 25 up to Cheyenne, and then hwy 80 the rest of the way to SF. Is this too cool? I witnessed to them a little, but not aggressively. I did not tell them what I'd prayed. When we got to Fresno I told them I'd like to buy them a case of the beer of their choice just to thank them for the ride. They gladly accepted and went their way. I bet not too many other "Jesus freaks" ever did that for them. I have no idea what ever happened to them; maybe they eventually got born again, or maybe they died in a fiery crash before they got to SF. Nothing happened while I was in Fresno that seemed to be life or death for anybody. From God's pov things may have been different, but from my pov it was just a vacation done because I couldn't get my believing together to get the money for the AC. The prayer was just me acting on what I was taught in pfal. After I got back with the believers in Columbia, several people including my twig cordo told me they sensed that hitching to CA was what I really needed to do; that I seemed refreshed. Seems to me that God worked in my situation not according to the script of legalistic twiers. But believing is not making God into a vending machine, as some on this thread have implied. Everybody believes heavy and or light about their lives and their feelings; even non religious people. God designed the human mind, so God allows for people to benefit from believing. That's not so outlandish, is it?

It's a misquotation of Hebrews 11:35-40; 'Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection: And others had trial of cruel mockings, and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment: They were stoned, thet were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented; (Of whom the world was not worthy:) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth. And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.' It never says anything about 'being sawn asunder by believing'. And in answer to George Aar's post, I don't recall any promise in the Bible that guarantees a parking spot right by the door.

There are the verses in James 4, 'Ye have not, because ye ask not. Ye ask and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts.' In the case of a gentleman mentioned earlier on this thread who gave away his car because he was 'believing' for a new one, let me ask if he really needed a new car. He already had a car that apparently was running. Could it be that his prayer fell into the category of 'asking amiss, because of lust'? I am not trying to blame this gentleman for his 'lack of believing', just suggesting that his 'believing' was misplaced.

Hmmm, come to think of it, in my essay (Myself as a wow) which they made us write back then I mentioned that I had hitched to all 4 corners of the USA. Wonder if that's why they sent me to MO, right in the middle.

I only went wow once but I thought it was kinda cool the way they built up the suspense. Got sent to a college town in MO. My wow training was my intro to several prominent TWI leaders at the time including Vince F and Bob M. By the time I got out of wow training I felt like I could win half the state of MO. Didn't happen, but I didn't mind the suspense of not knowing where I was going until the night before we left.

Jesus and Satan were having an on-going argument about who was better on the computer. They had been going at it for days, and frankly God was tired of hearing all the bickering. Finally fed up, God said, "THAT'S IT! I have had enough. I am going to set up a test that will run for two hours, and from those results, I will judge who does the better job." So Satan and Jesus sat down at the keyboards and typed away. They moused. They faxed. They e-mailed. They e-mailed with attachments. They downloaded. They did spreadsheets! They! wrote reports. They created labels and cards. They created charts and graphs. They did some genealogy reports They did every job known to man from computer software. Jesus worked with heavenly efficiency and Satan was lightning fast. Then, ten minutes before their time was up, lightning suddenly flashed across the sky, thunder rolled, rain poured, and, of course, the power went off. Satan stared at his blank screen and screamed every curse word known in the underworld. Jesus just sighed. Finally the electricity came back on, and each of them restarted their computers. Satan started searching frantically, screaming: "It's gone! It's all GONE! "I lost everything when the power went out!" Meanwhile, Jesus quietly started printing out all of his files from the past two hours of work. Satan observed this and became irate. "Wait!" he screamed. "That's not fair! He cheated! How come he has all his work and I don't have any?" God just shrugged and said, JESUS SAVES

Judge: The people may call their next witness. Prosecutor: The people call as an expert witness, Mr. Waybuh E. Leever. Defense counsel: Your honor, I renew my objection to this witness...there is no... Prosecutor: Your honor, this man is a graduate of the Advanced class on Power for abundant living and he has coordinated a fellowship in his home for ten years. Judge: The objection is overruled; the witness may testify. Prosecutor: Mr. Leever, how did you become acquainted with the defendant? Witness: My fellowship was out witnessing in the mall, and I'd seen him several other times we'd done that, so I decided to witness to him. Prosecutor: Could you please tell the court exactly what this involves? Witness: Yes. We go talk to people about Jesus Christ; we bear witness to the gospel of Jesus Christ. Usually, this will involve telling people what good things have happened to us as a result of being a follower of Jesus Christ. Prosecutor: OK, so what happened when you witnessed to the defendant? Witness: I immediately perceived that there was something amiss. It wasn't me; it was spiritual. I knew there was something dangerous about this guy. Prosecutor: Could you please explain that? Defense counsel: Your HONOR! This is ABSURD! What could possibly be "spiritual" about... Judge: ORDER! (bangs gavel) This witness may testify; no more outbursts, counsellor! Witness: God was giving me revelation that the man was dangerous; I didn't know anything more specific than that at first, but it was very clear. Prosecutor: Thank you. Did you see the defendant after that night? Witness: Yes, he came to fellowship at my home the next evening. Prosecutor: You let him in your home after God, uh, showed you he was dangerous? Witness: Well, I couldn't just send him away; our fellowships are open to the public. Besides, he hadn't done anything wrong and we've had many instances of troubled people coming to fellowship and eventually getting healed and delivered of many things. Prosecutor: But you were wary of him? Witness: Yes, that's right. Prosecutor: Did anything unusual happen with this guy at the fellowship? Witness: He didn't seem to respond much to what was being presented, but after a few minutes he seemed to be looking at one of the young teenage boys. Prosecutor: What did you do? Witness: Nothing at first, but it bothered me. I watched him for the rest of the time he was there, then later that night I called my branch leader and asked him what I should do. Prosecutor: What did he say? Defense counsel: Sidebar, your honor. (defense counsel and prosecutor approach the bench) This is extremely prejudicial, your honor; it's just hearsay. Where is this going? Prosecutor: I'm just about through with this witness, your honor. Judge: Make it quick, counsellor. (waves them away) Prosecutor: Now, what did your branch leader tell you. Witness: He said, "I don't know; ask God." Prosecutor: So what did you do? Witness: Well, I prayed about it, and he came back to fellowship a week later and basically did the same thing, so I confronted him about it privately and he got offended and left. I didn't see him again until approximately three weeks later when I saw in the paper that he'd been accused of sexually assaulting the two eight year old children. Prosecutor: But this man has attended church all his life. He was born in a Christian household. How does something like this happen? Witness: Well, he may look well groomed right now sitting there in that three piece suit, but he has unclean spirits; spirits of lust, strife, lying, and several others. They follow him wherever he goes. He needs help bad. He should not be allowed around women and children without supervision. Prosecutor: No more questions; your witness. Pretty comical, eh? Just for one week I'd like to see what would happen if these expert witnesses were revered above psychologists. That would be interesting.

Mstar: Thanks for the link. That site is just as funny as Landover Baptist.

Ephesians 4:32: Hi, welcome. I understand where you're coming from. This can be a hostile place to those who still respect what TWI taught them. It can be exactly what Eph. 4:32 is NOT. If you stay and continue to post they'll call you a troll or a Wierwille sympathizer/apologist; if you don't post anymore they'll call you a drive by poster. Either way they put you on the defensive and pressure you to apologize for your beliefs. Like Bob Dylan says, "everybody must get stoned!" I come here because... 1) the positive aspects of being able to freely communicate with other exway people here (up to this point) outweigh the negative aspects of having to read what I consider to be stupidity a lot. 2) the moderators haven't kicked me out yet. Thank you for posting your message. What you posted is a perfectly legitimate option for anyone to consider. Not appreciated by all, but perfectly legitimate. God bless you.

quote: As far as hitch hiking being dangerous, I don't buy that. I decided to begin reading this thread and only got as far as this, and I just gotta say something: DUH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! On one of my hitching experiences in the Corps, I was stuck in a sports car being driven by a drunk at high rates of speed, praying I'd see the light of day. One of my Corps sisters was KIDNAPPED while hitching, when her buddy left the truck to go to the bathroom and the trucker took off with her. Not dangerous? Buddy, what planet do you live on, and in what century? This is just another microcosm of my relationship to GSC. I've probably hitched more than all of you put together. I know that George Aar and the Evan have put in some time hitching, but for the most part, it was pretty cool. I found that having a guitar, a pet, and/or a woman with you increased the chances of getting a ride quickly. Most people just want someone to talk to, or possibly drive for them. Yeah, one bad ride has the potential to ruin everything but just like other stuff frequently complained about on GSC, nothing much bad ever happened to me. I once hitched from MI to CA in 2 days and 11 hours. The last time I did it though was to the ROA in '84. Had someone's WOW money with me so of course God made sure I got there OK. I was coming from STL and it took me much of Thursday night to get across the river into Illinois, but I got a ride from about 20 miles into IL all the way to the ROA in plenty of time to get the guy his money. Why does one exception have to be the rule?

I guess Woody Allen was right. In his 1974 movie 'The Sleeper' his character went 200 years into the future where people "performed" sex by getting into a phone booth called an orgasmatron. The whole experience lasted 5 seconds. Speed dating sounds like the first major step in that direction unless you count phone sex.

quote: If some officials voted into office decide to take bribes on the side, get blow jobs in the Oval Office, etc., did I enable their vile behavior? No. I am in no way responsible for their actions. I can feel anger and outrage, but guilt would be a misplaced emotion. Any thoughts? Good analogy. quote: Possibly the little lady in the picture below would agree with you? However I don’t think she was in your corps regiment. Be a little gay??? Nothing wrong with a wife having the house immaculate and having dinner ready and even having a ribbon in her hair as long as it's consensual, but today women don't have time for that stuff; neither do men. I remember from my pre school days my mom scrubbing linoleum floors on her hands and knees, always baking stuff, and she did so dutifully. But that was 50 years ago. Different era now.

There's something that hasn't been brought up about LEAD: it's predecessor was total fitness institute. This was a property in CA about a third of the way between Fresno, CA and Yosemite National Park. The single digit corps had to do this. Why was this done??? Because John Somerville (sp) told VP that the corps were all wusses. JS had a background in the military which included interrogating prisoners of war. He didn't respect corps standards. Thought they were lame. That's why LEAD evolved and some of the war stories I've heard about TFI are worse than those about LEAD. As far as hitch hiking being dangerous, I don't buy that.

Wow. The big five oh. AARP will find you. Happy birthday.

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quote: I might be wrong but I sense many more female participants than male? And the women definitely seem to stick closer together. Is that because VP & leadership in general was male and therefore the (sexual victim) was female? Did females in twi “bond” in the face of this male enemy predator? Men obviously lost out in other ways... What if VP & leadership had been female, like today? Would the whole affair have come out differently? Any Ideas?? Ideas? About gender? Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha. Naw, don't have a clue.

quote: But then.......you never sat in those wierwille-veins-popping yellfests when all hell broke loose. Man, wierwille and martindale and others could really spit out some over-the-top fear manipulation by using scriptures such as "salt losing its savor" or "like a dog returning to his vomit" or "being loaded up with devil spirits like a new boot in hell." Believe it or not..........the wierwille of pfal was NOT the wierwille of corps training. To be fair, I recall that during ROA 1980 VP did the ordination ceremony as part of one of the night's presentations. Of course he wanted to convey the seriousness of ordination into the Christian ministry. I remember him saying, "If you're ordained and you sleep in until 10AM, I hope you DIE!!!" That got my attention, but from my 'being on the field' pov, the stuff about way corps and reverends that turned me off was not their occasional exhortations to be committed, it was the occasional arrogance; the 'I'm better than you' attitude.

The thing about guilt trips illustrates to me how complicated TWI became. In the 80s I clearly remember LCM once getting all riled up over giving to something other than TWI. His spin was that most other things you could give to tried to play on your guilt. Why should you feel guilty just because you have a roof over your head, food, clothes, etc.? He said, "I don't care if it's the will of God Almighty for you to give to something other than TWI; just DON'T do it out of GUILT!" Yet, beginning with the debt purge in spring of 1994 and forward, all TWI was mandated to give based on guilt. Give 15% ABS, give up your mortgage for a rental unit, give up your long standing relationships with "copped out" believers if leadership says so, etc. Even region cordos felt the guilt, and some have broken free.

quote: Well........After corps "training" my stereotype of twi was that if you step out of line just a little, you will be labeled a cop-out and might go to hell. Impossible. Incorruptible seed means you don't go to hell...ever. If someone actually said that to you then they did, but that's not pfal.

I had a similar experience. Nobody got hurt, but the dope humor thing...yeah. I was in 11th grade and everybody knew I was a stoner. Had choir 4th hour. That day I came stoned on mesc. I was peaking. So I tried to sit in the back row with the basses (I was a tenor) but the teacher made me take my regular seat, right under the guy. OK, he was standing up to lead like usual and I was sitting in a chair roughly 3 feet from the guy. At the time we were doing material from Jesus Christ Superstar. I had the same solo in 'Hosanna' that Ian Gillian had on the album, but this guy had a dip .... arrangement for the solo and I preferred to sing it like it was on the album and the guy didn't like that. Most choir teachers I had from 7th thru 12th grade seemed to have a nutty streak. A healthy nutty streak, but a nutty streak nonetheless. This guy didn't; he was dry and deadpan. So when we were going to practice 'Hosanna' that day, right before we started singing, he plants his face in my face and says (I kid not), "Uh, about your solo...could you please sing it straight? Uh, yes, could you sing it straight? Thank you." Remember, I'm peaking. I'm laughing right now recalling this more than I laughed then. I figured if I laughed full force then they would all KNOW something was up. It's one thing to get sent to the principal's office on pot, but mesc? Mmmm...NO. I sang the solo mimicking Ian Gillian as usual and then after the song was over I pleaded with the guy to let me do it that way all the time citing the way it was done on the album. Others in the choir echoed support for me. The guy reluctantly gave in. But the whole stoned humor thing. There's nothing like it.

I, too, give pfal the thumbs up. Like doreen said, it just made logical sense to me, all of it: JC is not God, ADAN, incorruptible seed, good stuff. Before pfal, my stereotype of Christianity was that if you step out of line just a little, you might go to hell. This was the example the other kids on my street showed me. Nothing about love or forgiveness, just walk right or go to hell. Pfal more than made that right for me.

Comparing VP to Hitler is beyond absurd. Whom did VP kill? He never usurped Christ's place in MY life. What I'm inferring here is that "I wanted to serve God but that darn VP controlled me so I couldn't do it". I don't think that's going to wash with God. Isn't there a scripture about "no temptation has taken you that isn't common to man, and with the temptation there will be a way to escape"? But VP is the exception; there was no way to escape VP? Not gonna wash. I agree with Oldies: we WERE serving God, VPs sins or not.