johniam

If you bitterness freaks are so sick of input from the likes of us then why don't you do what Mike did awhile back and have a PM conference call. He organized a PM only discussion about PFAL that was positive. No outsiders, no negativity. You guys won't do that because you really do all your complaining to be seen of men, not to please God. I feel sorry for Doreen. She started this thread. She only has 7 posts. She probably thinks it's her fault that this thread has taken the direction it has taken. God if she only knew what carnage has already happened here. This particular thread was intended to be mostly positive and upbeat and then it got derailed by the negative people. But there are other threads that were intended to be about negative stuff which got derailed by the positive people. The threads like that can get ugly but they can also cause release for the people involved. They start out being about the topic and then it's all about egos and credibility. None of us positive people are trying to shut anybody up; we're just sick of being misrepresented. We sorta think youse guys are the ones trying to shut US up. So just keep on arguing with us about everything. That'll shut us up.

quote: that is what Wierwille said about the "Law of Believing", that it "works for saint and sinner alike" - and he definitely was talking about of believing when you pray. The law of believing covers both natural believing and the faith of Jesus Christ, but VP said this in the context of "what's available/how to receive it/what to do with it...". Knowing what God's word says opens up more possibilities than you had before, but it's the same law of believing that covers both saint and sinner. Remember that tape called 'the healing word'? It contains several healing songs, but before the songs VP shares that at some point in time our believing wears down and we die. He admitted that later about his own death. It should go without saying that, while believing does work for saint and sinner alike, it is affected by the sickness and death of the belieVER.

Getting colder.

Hey, speaking of healthy and normal, I've been on a vitamin program for 4 months now and it seems to be working. My energy level is much better this year to withstand the heat than before. This health food store has a nurse come in every couple months or so and she puts a sample of your blood under a microscope which is connected to a TV monitor so you can see your blood flow giant sized. The nurse then points at stuff on the screen and tells you what's good and what's not. One of the things I'm taking vitamins for is parasites. And wouldn't you know that one category of parasites identified by the reading material I got is the exact same name as one particularly persistent poster who condemns VP and PFAL in every possible way. Another benefit of PFAL is the concept that the bible is accurate

quote: I think Accuracy is Overrated! Oh, really. So if I'm your boss and I under pay you by 75% who cares because accuracy is overrated? The sun is 93 million miles from earth. If it was 88 million we'd burn up; if it was 98 million we'd be frozen. I think accuracy is important if it's life sustaining. Jesus said man does not live by bread alone but by every word of God. The word of God is life sustaining. We were told to yield on insignificant matters. This was a literal translation of Philippians 4:5. There's nothing life sustaining about sports statistics or other trivia. Sometimes believers erred by over spiritualizing stuff. It got to an extreme in the 90s: renting instead of owning, mandatory twig attendance 3 times a week, making a schedule accounting for every 15 minute segment of every day...that kind of "accuracy" is worthy of the toilet.

I don't have to prove anything to you.

Now you lost me.

quote: One of the greatest things I learned in PFAL, was that I was born again, heaven bound and all hell can't stop me from going. Sealed with holy spirit. Born a new creature, in Christ. That God wouldn't (and in fact COULDN'T) disown me, because of my sins. That I will ALWAYS be His child. This is comforting. Comforting? It's normal healthy thinking. When I get home from work these days, I've been out in 90 degrees for 6 plus hours. So my body needs to be comforted by the AC in my house, but after several minutes have passed I don't need to be comforted; I just enjoy the normal healthy condition of having AC in my house. Yes, when I first heard that I was going to heaven and all hell couldn't stop me from going, I was comforted. But it's been so many years here in the "AC" of God's love that it's just normal and healthy to me now.

quote: did you ever use the God thing as a crutch to NOT do well, to justify something that would not have gone in that manner had you not had the crutch of saying well God's will is. or it is a sin so I cant etc. You don't need God to give up on something. That's not a crutch, that's a rationalization. I'm into real life. I pray real prayers and I get real answers. You?

quote: The way I understand biblical prayer, a Christian willingly submits in advance to the sovereignty of God. I think James 4:15, "If it is the Lord's will" is the right frame of mind for biblical prayer. A TWI believer NEVER used the word "if" in prayer. And when a new grad mistakenly used the word "if" in prayer, every seasoned PFAL grad would pounce on them with enough reproof and correction to put God in timeout for a year. I "submit" that to willingly submit in advance to the sovereignty of God is to understand that God's not an ATM or a vending machine and you just might not get the prayer answered RIGHT NOW. But there's no "if" about God's ability. There's no "if" about God wanting people to pour out their hearts before Him. The only "if" is with us individually. Do you want what you're praying for or not? If so, PRAY! It's not our job to figure out what God's timetable is or isn't; God says we can pray, so just pray. If you don't get a clear answer, keep praying until you either get a clear answer, or until you know that you don't need to pray for that particular thing anymore, which, in and of itself, IS a clear answer.

quote: Where can I find this reference to the 5 different kinds of believing? It's not 5 different kinds of believing; it's 5 types of faith, including natural believing. In chapter 18 of the PFAL book, faith comes by hearing the word of God, and on page 280 in my copy (2nd printing), the 5 types are listed. Remember that the words 'faith' and 'believing' are used interchangeably in KJV, but only natural believing, usually translated faith, is available to the natural man. If you meant BIBLICAL reference to the 5 types of faith, do a word study. VP quotes several scriptures in the chapter I referred to. quote: If this so-called *believing* works for saint and sinner alike, how does a relationship with God or Jesus factor into the equation? It doesn't. Again, for the third time, natural believing, which works for saint and sinner alike, is the only one of the 5 types of faith that the natural man (sinner) has access to. No relationship with God possible for the natural man until he/she believes Romans 10:9 thus being born again. THEN the faith of Jesus Christ kicks in and BOOM: relationship with GOD!

A number of years ago an old friend of mine said he thought religion was a crutch. Talk about a cliche. But in one sense it IS a crutch. Natural man cannot receive the things of the spirit of God, right? Natural man lacks the ability to do that. In the same manner, a person with one leg missing or disabled lacks the ability to walk normally, so that person needs what? A crutch, if they can't get prosthetics. A crutch is, after all, a tool used by people to compensate for their lack of ability to ambulate, whether it's temporary or permanent. Religion, access to God, is a tool used by those who feel they lack the ability to access God by natural means. So, yes, in that sense, God is a crutch. Perhaps the comparison is borne of cynicism, reducing the relationship with God down to a "relationship" with an inanimate object, at least, for some people. Either way, I use that crutch (God's gift) and I'm proud of it.

quote: He didn't compare her to the woman down the street who didn't open her home to David. What? Where did you hear about some woman down the street? Is the Jerusalem enquirer on the internet?

Usually, I seem to find myself in the middle of discussions like this. This thread hits me like a Kurt Vonnegut piece I once read. It was in his book called "Welcome to the Monkey House". In a futuristic society the powers that became applied a perversely extreme interpretation of "all men are created equal" in which everybody had to be equal to everybody else in every way. This meant that nobody could have any more physical abilities that the worst quadroplegic. This meant that the more natural physical ability one had, the more handicaps they had to wear, thus weighting them down so they couldn't use their physical talents because if they did, they'd be unequal to those who didn't have these talents. This necessitated a cabinet post called the 'Handicapper General' who made sure that everybody wore their handicaps. Toward the end of the story, a talented skating couple refused to wear their handicaps and skated beautifully and awesomely...until the Handicapper General got wind of it and came and shot them dead. That's what I feel like here sometimes. This is supposed to be an open forum where anybody can voice their opinion. Yet because of all the self appointed 'handicapper generals', anybody who is positive in their recollection of TWI/PFAL is compelled to wear the same handicaps as those who were scarred by TWI/PFAL. I enjoy my life right now. I enjoy my family, the people at the fellowship I go to, the activities I allow in my life, and my health, and TWI/PFAL has made a large contribution to that enjoyment. I refuse to wear any handicaps.

quote: The TWI model of prayer takes the relationship out of the picture (remember: saint & sinner alike) That doesn't make sense: sinners don't pray. Like I said earlier, VP broke down believing into 5 categories, only one of which is available to those not born again, which is natural believing, which works for saint and sinner alike. It is possible at times for a saint to have little faith and for a sinner to have great faith (natural believing). The faith of Jesus Christ is an extention of natural believing. To pray with believing. a born again one must use their own believing just like they did before they got born again, but since they're now born again, it's not just natural believing, it's the faith of Jesus Christ, which accesses a relationship with God. Speak for yourself, waysider.

I'm not so sure. If God already said it's available to pray for stuff then doing that is part of living the relationship. At worst, the camera analogy et al is a placebo to help people who think they are "too sinful" for God to give a crap about them.

That's good!

quote: My problem with that is there seems to be no rhyme or reason to when prayers get results and when they don't. It's not about the prayer; it's about the relationship. I don't give my kids everything they ask me for, but they still know I love them.

I'll chime in here: one thing that could be either a nightmare, or a really good time was...witnessing night. Think about it. You go out to the mall or a park or something and you might get somebody who hates all religion and makes a beeline for security as soon as you say "hi", or you could get a group of smart a$$ high school kids, a few of which may 'condescend' to talk to you. Once I started talking to this guy on a bench and he feigned interest convincingly and then after about 2 minutes he bolted up and said, "Oh, there's my wife gotta go." and "barely escaped with his life". When it was bad it was bad, but when it was good it was good, even if nobody we witnessed to came to fellowship.

Reefer madness. That is a classic funny movie. Play faster, fffft, play faster!

We buy lots of generic stuff. One thing I miss about living in MI is Meijers. Their stores are huge and have a better overall selection than Walmart. I used to take their multi symptom cold pill for hay fever and it worked pretty good. Here in STL we shop at Shop'n'save and we buy a lot of their generic stuff. Ditto Aldi's. We actually experiment on our kids; they will eat Aldi's fries (lot cheaper than Ore Ida) and other Aldi's products so we aren't afraid to try them. Excathedra: I'm curious. What are the big chain grocery stores in Chicago? I noticed that Meijer's are all over Detroit and Cincinnatti but none in Chicago. I figure the grocery industry in Chicago is run by people who know people...if ya get my drift... and I just wonder what chain stores are there. It can't just be Walmart, can it?

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Bliss: Moses WROTE in the bible. Adam and Eve had direct communication with God. Has God ever told you what job to do like He did Adam? Has he ever told you to walk through a sea like He did Moses? What Moses wrote is still with us and referred to all the time in the OT. The things that were at stake when Moses was alive are not at stake now; same for Adam and Eve. What is at stake for you? You don't think God cares about you? You don't think the bible could help? You don't think God expects you to know that?

Has anybody been watching that show on ESPN 'the Bronx is Burning'? When I saw that it was going to be on, I wrote it off as a baseball version of 'Playmakers' which drew the ire of several pro football players, including Peyton Manning. But I happened to catch about 10 or 15 minutes of it few nights ago and unlike 'Playmakers' it covers real people and real events. If there's any truth to that, then Billy Martin was more pathetic than I knew. He was manager of the Tigers when I lived in MI and clearly there were issues. A lot of former Tiger players do not have much good to say about Martin and what it was like to play for him. They implied that the media went to great lengths to protect him (bail him out). In 'Bronx is burning' he was talking to his mother on the phone and, yes he wouldn't take any guff from Reggie Jackson, but his mom had him like a puppet on a string. Pretty weird.

VP put faith into 5 categories: natural believing, which everybody can do, and the faith of Jesus Christ, which only those born again can do. The other three are also only for those born again (household faith, fruit of the spirit faith, and the manifestation of faith). For example, in Matthew 6 Jesus calls his disciples "oh ye of little faith" and then in Matthew 8 he says of the Roman centurian, "I have not seen so great faith in all Israel. Those are both natural believing, which can vary from person to person. But in Romans 12, it says that God has dealt to every man THE measure of faith. This is the faith of Jesus Christ; one size fits all. Being born again doesn't make anyone "better" morally than those not born again, but it gives that person a tool to use that they didn't have before. Remember the movie 'Stripes"? The scene where Bill Murray and Harold Ramis took that souped up military vehicle out for a joy ride? Harold Ramis was reading the manual for the thing and kept saying how you wouldn't believe what this thing can do on and on and on. That military vehicle had tools that other similar vehicles didn't have. That's like the faith of Jesus Christ. But if believers don't realize what they got, they'll never use it. If you pray (believe) for something that has God behind it, it will come to pass. If you just pray for stuff like you're on the 'believer shopping channel', then maybe it won't come to pass, but believing works.