johniam
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On a related subject, I just ordered R. Crumb's complete comix from Waldenbooks today. Feed me/f### me. Yes, I can relate. Wait a minute. How is it possible to be in the missionary position and be in fetal position at the same time? Sure! OK. If you're in fetal position, then your head is low enough to breast feed. Aw, this is too weird.
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I don't mind changing a few habits, but for a legitimate reason, not just because.
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quote: And I thought we were supposed learn the right way to care for the environment from communist countries like China and Cuba ! Yep! I've always felt that ecology is just one more example of socialism in disguise. "A spectre is haunting America--the spectre of extinction. All the powers of politically correct socialist America have entered into a holy alliance to exorcize this spectre." Let me translate... "Humans are destroying the planet! We've got to do something...and us superior politically correct humans are supposed to be in charge of preventing the planet from being destroyed. This means we will be allowed to take any land, money, and energy sources for ourselves to save humanity from itself. Ain't we honorable?" Ironic that a socialist nation would be the first to be seen as a fraud.
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During Living Victoriously one afternoon LCM was ranting. He said that the dropout rate in TWI was highest during the year after the wow year. He was talking like it was a bad thing. I disagree. The wow program was never about outreach; it was for the growth of the individual who made the commitment, at least, that was the IDEAL. Unfortunately, the REAL was often much different. But if the dropout rate really was highest the year after the wow year, that tells me that the wow program consistently showed the participants exactly what they were in for if they continued in TWI, and some of them were able to come to the conclusion that TWI was not for them. I don't think that's a bad thing. My wow year was pretty easy. Not uneventful, but easy. We ran 3 classes in a small college town in MO. The family cordo was an apprentice corps girl who had been wow the previous year. The other girl had been a college wow 2 years before. Me and the other guy were barely out of pfal. We were all 22/23 years old. We were the only wows ever sent to this town. Both girls were good looking. Since it was a college town, this scenerio was often repeated...that guys the girls witnessed to would come to 1 or 2 fellowships and, when it dawned on them that the girls were seriously into the bible, not sex, would never be seen again. I saw some personal growth that year. Before TWI I was a doper. Not a user of deadly drugs but moved in and out of mom's house, couldn't keep a job, kept dropping out of schools, etc. TWI changed that, especially the wow year. But the girls were more mature than us guys. During a Christmas party one Saturday night, in a moment of insanity, I pinched the family cordo in the rear. There were maybe 10 people in attendance, including people who'd just taken the class. She turns and looks at me, motions for me to come to her, then slaps my face. Embarrassed, I left, walked around in the cool air for 20 minutes, then came back and apologized profusely. I really had that coming, too. Later that night the 2 girls got with me and the cordo said, "Look, sorry I had to do that, but you WERE out of line and you better not ever do anything like that again!" They talked to me in a reassuring tone, not condemning, which was nice. The next day all the wows in the state had to drive to the limb for a Christmas party. At one point during the party, each wow family crammed into a big two seater chair for a picture. I was still not saying much to anybody in response to having embarrassed myself the night before. The girls picked up on this, and the other guy wasn't there, so when the picture was taken, each girl sat on one of my legs and wrapped their arms around me and pressed their cheeks into mine to get me to smile for the picture. I noticed that one of the guys who was wow in a different family just glared at me. (you lucky S***!) If only he knew. I got over much fear of witnessing that year. I liked witnessing to high school kids. None in that town ever came to fellowship, but they don't have the deep rooted cynicism yet, so their remarks and objections didn't seem as harsh. My best sign up for the year happened about 2/3 of the way through the year. I felt so 'burned out' on being a wow that I would just spend my witnessing time asking people "Hey, wanna come to a twig?" Most people would just look at me strange and walk faster away from me. But, hey, I did MY job, right? Well, I did that to a guy who was already late for a class. He gets irritated and says, "What's a twig? I'm late for a class. Why are you asking me this?" I told him it was bible study and he said, "WowI'vebeenwantingtodosomethinglikethisbutIhavetogotoclassIliveinhtefrathousejust beforethetracksandI'llbebackthereat5:30seeyouthenbye" That guy took the advanced class before I did and our families are still in contact with each other. That's all for now.
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TWI never told me to NEVER think about the past. Some people are either too lazy or too fearful to move forward and get past something and they use their past as an excuse to not go forward, but introspection and learning from the past are perfectly OK. Hard not to do that one. The book of Deuteronomy is almost all introspection: first Moses recaps every place they ever camped since the exodus and the highs and lows of the past 40 years. Interesting that the next big thing Israel did after that was...uh, go into the PROMISED LAND!!!! So introspection must play a very crucial role in our lives.
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I would like to think that the majority of the leaders had that mindset, and that the ones who were in it for personal gain were in the minority. Yes, the organisation may have crumbled, but the men and women whose stand was based on the firm rock of Jesus Christ, not loyalty to an organisation have not crumbled, but still stand strong on the Word (Bible), nor has the foundation beneath their feet shifted at all. Oh, jeez, I did it AGAIN. Still Jean, sorry.
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Yes, you are entitled to believe anything you want to, but then I must be entitled to believe there was no evil there...or not enough that warrants mentioning it. But that is not what I believe. I believe there were some people who grasped at power for their own motives, but there were also many people who took literally the verse 'he who would be chief among you shall be the servant of all'. Oops, forgot again. This is Jean, not John. My bad.
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I love tomatoes. But I prefer to take them internally.
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During my wow year (77/78) my coordinator said she heard from corps that if more people didn't believe then the gathering together would be in the next 5 years. Oops.
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It seems like the difference between this thread and others that have gone this route is that EVERY one of the principles have fully dropped their gloves. Before, some were blunt and others tried to be tactful, but everybody is turned up to 10 on this one. Might be a good thing. There's a sense of freedom in being totally honest because you can't always say exactly what you think to people in a lot of situations, but here we can. If somebody really went off the deep end and tried to find out where somebody lived and wanted to hurt or kill them, that would be different, but I've never heard any news item about that happening on any internet forum.
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Yeah, the first thing I thought of was the tests to see if you were ready for the advanced class; they had one for pfal, rhst, jcing,adan and the collaterals, but I never heard that any of those tests could be gotten by the general public.
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quote: But look at all that was lost... Actually, there's a lot of stuff BG Leonard taught that was not in pfal...deliberately.
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Jean's gone to bed....laughing.
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quote: Then, you are willing to give the actual author of the class credit; BG Leonard! Except that BG Leonard didn't get the info to me, VP Wierwille did. Why not give him credit for that? I really don't think God is too perturbed about it.
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Rascal you're halucinating again.
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quote: Lets not let scripture interfere with what you want to believe of a man whom you have probably never met nor had much exposure to. I bet the devil said something like that to Jesus in Matt 4 and Luke 4 only with 'a god whom' instead of 'a man whom'.
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quote: The pro VPW -- "he couldn't have done that, even if he did I will follow him, where is the proof?" camp, lost MIKE. But they picked up Jeaniam. Did Mike formally announce that he was leaving? I've seen him lurking recently. News to me.
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quote: There was a power and it wasn't godly. Other than VP the only person I kind of followed and regarded highly was Jerry Garcia. I first saw the Dead at closing week at Fillmore west in '71. There were 5 shows that week, 6 counting audition night. It was a big deal; they even made a movie about it. Bill Graham had to close the place for some reason. Rumors were that a Howard Johnson's would be built on that location. But every group on all 5 nights was a San Francisco bay area group. The Dead played on Friday night. Me and the guy I went to all the shows with got in line early every day. So when we got inside the place we got very close to the front. There was nobody in SF rock and roll who had more celebrity status than Jerry G. Even though there were shows on Saturday and Sunday nights with arguably more nationally known groups (Santana, CCR) there were more people at the Dead, at least it sure seemed like it. There was this electricity in the air for the Dead that wasn't there for the other shows. So we get inside and Jerry's on stage tuning up his pedal steel guitar, which he played for the New Riders and this other country rock band, both of which opened for the dead. Several people upon seeing him crammed up to where he was and talked his ear off until he reproved them for their rudeness. But all night practically (8 hours) he was on stage less than 10 feet from me. Others idolized him. But he struck me as strangely ordinary. He seemed perfectly at ease with his celebrity, more so than any other celebrity I ever saw up close; like he truly thought it was no big deal. Yes, as I said, there was electricity in the air that centered around him, but he himself seemed to be separate from it. I've heard rumors from people in STL (non TWI) that the Dead were all devil worshippers who drink blood, but Socks once posted that he never heard that from VP or anyone connected with Way prod. Their bass player recently wrote an autobiography which included much candid info about the band's drug use and the foolishness of it but nothing about devil worship. Yet, there was definitely a contact high or something that hovered over the scene every time I saw them (7 times, once post Jerry) but that didn't make them evil. I saw VP up close 3 times, once on stage at a ROA, once between teachings at a day in the word, and once when he made a surprise visit to the House of His Healing presence. He seemed ordinary to me all three times. I was in awe of him because he was who he was, but no evil power as far as I could tell.
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No, I would not. I consider him the greatest victor in all of history. What are these tales of woe, misery, and betrayal you claim he told? His followers told them on his behalf, but I don't know of any that he told.
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quote: So there must be verses that address the "bible subject" of accuracy then? If, of course, accuracy is a "bible subject". Yes, there are and it is. Neh.8:8 - so they read in the book in the law of God distictly and gave the sense and caused them to understand the reading. In Judges 11:12-27 Jephthah had a dispute with the Ammonites about past history between the 2 nations and Jephthah prevailed because he knew the accuracy of what was written. Luke had perfect understanding of all things from the very first (Luke 1:4). If God can accurately put the sun 93 million miles from the earth then surely he can get His own word right.
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Aw man, that's 2 people I thought lived in Chicago who don't. Rottiegrrrl does, doesn't she? 1 out of 3 ain't bad.
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Oxymorons. Good point waysider, just....not to leave the other undone. quote: What Bible subjects you do think are worth arguing about? Um...ACCURACY!
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You sound like LCM.
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quote: If God is going to supply your every need, This is not automatic. It's contingent on a) standing fast in the Lord (v.1), b) being of the same mind in the Lord (v.2), being careful (anxious) for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving (v.6), thinking on all these things (v.8), and doing those things they'd learned, received, and heard in Paul (v.9). Like I said, my kids don't get everything they ask for, but they know i love them.
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Bliss: By definition, a saint is a believer and a sinner is an unbeliever. If you pray to God then you're a believer. Sure, all people sin; even believers, but when VP said saint and sinner alike, he meant saint= believer and sinner = unbeliever.