johniam

He is "using" humans, huh? Always the same plan? No. Not true. Gen 6:6,7 both say it repenteth the Lord that He had made man. 1 Sam. 15:11 says it repenteth me (God) that I have set up Saul to be king. Now, if the bible can phrase God's "feelings" in this manner, then I can say God went to plan B. No different. This does not put man in the driver's seat any more than it would put your kids in the driver's seat if you paid for their college and they flunked out. You may have to tell them they were on their own (rules changed) or you may try to convince them to do better at a different college, but that doesn't put them in the driver's seat, it means you have to shift gears and change the rules in order to accomodate their mistakes.

Ham, what part of "unchangeable" or "incorruptible" don't you understand?

I happen to know that John Hendricks' CRF ministry is still going strong 2 years after his death. They still sent out wows (lights) and still do their corps type program and they still do advanced classes. I don't know exactly who does what now that he's gone, but all indication is that it's working. John was the central figure in the group just like VP was to twi. From what I understand, John Shroyer was not the only teacher in CFFs foundational class and that they've built up quite a solid support system. If Hendricks' group can still function, I would think CFF has at least as good of a chance to do the same.

You sound like you need a Tylenol.

quote: but to all you newbies who hold vp/pfal dear...welcome to the cafe. Have a hot beverage and a pastry and God bless you and all that, but I already spent too much of my life with people who were sold out to a ministry rather than the Lord Jesus Christ. Life is just too short to spend it with people who choose to be ignorant. *********** Translation: If you don't agree with me about twi then I'm too cool for you and I don't have time to indulge you. Hey, works for me! Way to stand up to these bullies, Larry .

quote: By the way. T-Bone is right. The scripture he quoted starts out defining the nature of the "tree." ************************************************** That is irrelevant; there are no bad trees in the body of Christ and since Tbone said he values the gospels (when there was no body of Christ yet) more than the church epistles, he'll never understand that. Like I said, the standards of the gospels were as though Israel had accepted Jesus as the Messiah; they didn't so God had to go to plan B. You don't think this happened before? There were standards in the garden of Eden, but in Gen. 3 something happened which negated those standards and the rules changed. Then God went to plan B again when He saw that every imagination of the thoughts of mankind's hearts were only evil continually (Gen 6:5). The rules changed again. Then Moses led Israel out of Egypt, which led to the judges period in which Israel was basically a theocrasy, where religion and government were inter connected; but they wanted a king like "normal" nations, so God changed the rules AGAIN! Basically, mankind has screwed up everything God has tried to do for them. But He gave them one last chance. Jesus was born in Bethlehem and eventually fulfilled all the work God wanted him to do, but Israel rejected Jesus, so God had to change the rules AGAIN! But this time God's high priest (that would be Jesus) has an unchangeable priesthood (Heb. 7:24) so mankind CAN'T screw it up. Not even a morally bankrupt VP (assuming it's all true, which I don't). We are all members in particular of the body of Christ, born again of incorruptible seed unto a living hope reserved in heaven that fadeth not away. Love that's real not fade away! (brnk brnk brnk...BANK brnk) We got it, and if this good news isn't good enough for you, well then enjoy your suffering. I guess.

quote: According to Scripture we all have a sin nature and Christians have the new creation within, at war. Hence, two natures. We determine our lifestyle by the choices we make. You want to call that "juggling" - fine. I think the term has too much chance and not enough choice. ******************************************************************************** ***** Juggling takes skill. The analogy is not a 100% match, but time management is juggling. I certainly don't believe life is a gamble like some people I've met. quote: BTW - rewarding VP for good isn't our job. That's up to God. I still say that there some folks here that choose to be the watchmen who sound a warning when they see trouble. ******************************************************************************** ***** Oh, but penalizing VP is OK? Watchman??? Yeah, let's be watchmen for a guy who's been dead for 22 years. Some watchmen.

I stand by my post; all your objections are irrelevant and based on ignorance. Others got it, that fruit is either good or bad. All your verbage is intended to cloud the issue. quote: Bottom Line Is --- Docvic sowed more *bad seed* than *good seed*. Don't be too sure. None of us speak for all 100,000 plus who took pfal. Why does it have to be all or nothing? Why can't VP be rewarded for the good that he did and not for the bad that he did? quote: QUOTE(johniam @ Sep 1 2007, 11:11 PM) quote: Spiritual fruit in a person's life is indicative of the nature and health of the "tree." Agreed, but the "tree" is two fold: God's supply is always going to be there, but the person's desire and attitude are not always going to be there. Thus, sometimes good fruit, sometimes not. So we basically said the same thing on this point. Any apple tree can be healthy one year and in a drought the next. Yes, and so can peoples' fruit.

I don't know...before twi I lived with 3 other guys in a house and mostly we all drove our own cars but once I went on a trip for 2 weeks and I handed them the keys to my car and said use it if you need it. Our family coordinator had the only car in our family and she'd let any of us use it to go shopping or something like that but mostly she drove it. Some of y'all had pretty opportunistic wow siblings.

quote: Spiritual fruit in a person's life is indicative of the nature and health of the "tree." Agreed, but the "tree" is two fold: God's supply is always going to be there, but the person's desire and attitude are not always going to be there. Thus, sometimes good fruit, sometimes not.

quote: I am sorry that you don`t like that Jesus said *fruit* is how we would be able to identify each other. Talk about "seeing what you want to see"! I like it fine; However, I, unlike you, don't jump to erroneous conclusions with information like that. In Matt 7:20 Jesus said "by their fruits ye shall know them". Then in John 13:35 he said "by this shall all men know that you are my disciples, if ye have love one to another. Things equal to the same thing are equal to each other. If fruit equals knowing someone is a Christian, and love equals knowing someone is a Christian, then fruit equals love (agape). No surprise that love is the first listed fruit of the spirit. But Jesus also said that the love (agape) of many shall wax cold (Matt 24:12). So isn't it possible that the person whose love ministered to God's people effectually could be the same person whose love later waxed cold? Even a vineyard or an orchard can produce good fruit one year and bad fruit the next. I'm sorry that you apparently have a mental block and don't get the simplicity of this.

quote: Now, regarding your question about a Christian "juggling" two lifestyles: I didn't say 2 "lifestyles", I said 2 NATURES!!! This isn't the first time you've read a post of mine and changed the message. Do you have the spirit of error?

Do you see these delivered Christians 24/7? Anybody can put on a face while the "cameras are rolling". Look at VP. Torture doctrine??? Yeah, I bet the pharisees thought Jesus was doing that. Paul too. I'm sorry you're having such a hard time with this. I hope you some day find peace.

quote: There are going to be people who thought they knew him who will be told to depart....pure and simple...there are going to be people whom are of the flesh whom will have no inheritance in the kingdom of God.... There will be those who are of the spirit and will recieve an inheritance and ever lasting life... God tells us clearly how to tell one from the other...where is the butchery? ******************************************************************************** You're referring to Matt 7:23 or Matt 25:41. This was before the day of Pentecost. Jesus Himself didn't know the mystery, that Jews and Gentiles would become one body of Christ. Jesus didn't yet know that He would have to die; He didn't find that out until John 13. The people who were going to have to depart, according to the standard as if Israel had accepted Jesus as the Christ, were the Pharisees, some of whom were born of the wrong seed. But Israel did not accept Him. That standard never got to be applied. God had to go to plan B. Galatians 5 is wriitten to the church of the body, those born again of incorruptible seed. We have Christ in us. That's not an illusion, it's reality. We have God's nature within us. Did we do anything to deserve it? No. We're the same human schmucks that people were before Pentecost, but because of God's grace and the finished work of Jesus the Christ, we are privileged to have access to God's throne room, the oval office in the sky, baby! WW says he doesn't know exactly what Galatians 5:21 means. I do. Compare with 1 Corinthians 3:11-17. We all have flesh and we all have holy spirit. Some of our works are gold, silver, and precious stones; some of our works are wood, hay, or stubble. The former gets you an inheritance; the latter does not. To "not have an inheritance in the Kingdom of God doesn't mean you lose eternal life, it means no reward for the bad works. You're guaranteed life everlasting. The "butchery" is trying to apply law administration standards to the grace administration. It doesn't fit. The only way anyone would qualify for the kingdom of God that way is to be perfect. You don't have to believe this if you don't want to, but I believe it. If VP really did what he's accused of here, then it will definitely affect his inheritance, but he did good too. Do you really believe he wasn't even a Christian? Remember session 7? "Have you accepted Christ? Do you believe God raised him from the dead? Have you?" That was powerful. Why would a devil do that? Doesn't make sense unless you allow that a Christian has 2 natures to juggle.

quote: That fruit is produced from what we are inside...not something that we are striving to become. If we are having issues with fruit of the flesh rather than manifesting that fruit of the spirit...then it is time to examine our understanding for flaws. Rascal, it's bad enough that you butcher Gal. 5, but you also make the same mistake that fundamentalist Christians all over make: you think that a true Christian is perfect with no sin nature. Wrong! Christ gave us a new nature but our sin nature Adam gave us is still there, thus, 2 natures, 2 seeds, 2 kinds of fruit. We all have it. James 3 talks about this as well... 9: Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God. 10: Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be. Should not be, but can be. You say a true Christian just wouldn't do what VP did (allegedly). Well, wouldn't and shouldn't aren't the same thing. A true Christian shouldn't worship Jesus as God, yet it happens. You've got just as much dirty laundry as anybody else here. But don't let me confuse you with the truth.

Relationship??? Christ in you. That's not a relationship??? quote: Oldies - its between you and God. No one can answer "how" for you. You need to ask him to teach you - and he will, if you are sincere. Are you ready to go outside the box??? Are you ready to totally give your life and heart to Christ? In exchange, he will give you his life and heart. Are you ready to look to Him, and Him only, instead of VP, PFAL, the "Word" according to VP? What would happen if you communed with Christ every day, with just him for a month or two, let him teach you, leave everything else alone for awhile? Will you commune and talk to HIM? Or will you ignore and bypass Him - God's Heart - and think you aren't allowed to talk to and commune with Him, only with God? ******************************************************************************** ********************** What a cop out! So oldies is supposed to accept this false premise that he's wrong and that until he agrees with you he's not sincere, not truly committed, ready to go outside the box. What a pile of crap! quote: I realized in TWI, yes, I knew about his resurrection and power and had lots of knowledge, but I did not know HIM. I knew lots about Him. I did not know him. I asked him to reveal himself to me. That's all I could do. How do you know you're not "communing" with a devil spirit?

quote: I have found that God has been able to reach and teach me through a variety of different books since leaving. Mostly non doctrinal books.. On the other hand my husband has read mostly doctrinal type stuff...one God one lord....love languages...ces publications...that is the type of thing that holds meaning for him. While I couldn`t stomach that and he had no desire to read what I found was meaningfull and had impact....the truly wierd thing is....we have for the most part ended up on the same page as far as our understanding goes... I get so tickled at arriving at the same place through entirely different routs. It is like God works with each of us in the way we best can comprehend. Rascal. That's cool. I'm serious. God can take situations that seem impossible by the 5 senses and make them work. I'm blessed you shared that. BTW I nominated you to be the next twi pres.

I don't know, but there was a group called the Dead Kennedys. They had a song called 'Too drunk to f***'. I think I'd pick the Grateful Dead over them. As for the question posed on this thread, I'd nominate Rascal; she'd clean that place up. Wouldn't even recognize 'em.

quote: I do not recall CF&S being or having any sort of discussion format at all. I do recall a branch coordinator discussing his & wife's choices on birth control as some addition to the class materials, but it was not a group discussion or even a Q&A format.. I don't recall any TWI class that had open discussions as an actual part of the class. They were all lecture type classes. Yeah, what waysider said. In CFS they put you in small groups and encouraged people to just talk about stuff hopefully without giving too much info. Even in foundational pfal at the last session they'd ask new students to share how the class blessed them.

quote: But I imagine that I would be excited if it were healed. That does ot excuse the unconcerned behavior of everyone else in the class to an inappropriate action, however unintentional or unthinking it might have been. I didn't even find out about this until a week after the class was over. I was told it happened during a prayer and the woman just kept her cool. She was not married at the time but she married 3 years or so later (not to the 70 something). I guess I don't know that there was no discussion about it in private later on, but I still saw the 70 yr old at limb functions after this happened. Like I said, it was no big deal. No federal case was made of it.

Haven't been on the baseball the talking sport thread yet, but I bet Tomstrange will be cheery. Reminds me of rocket baseball (western MIs pre little league).

OK, I thought of something. This all reminds me of a story my mother told me once. She said that when she was married before the kids came, she had to go to the doctor for a sore ankle. This was during the 1930s. The doctor asked her how it happened and she said to him, "My husband and I were horsing around and I lost my balance and fell off the bed." For you dark ages people, the phrase 'horsing around' is referring to foreplay. But the doctor just LOOKED at her like she was evil or something. She thought, "What a creep!" and didn't go to that doctor anymore. I said that the ATMOSPHERE was what was so special about CFS. Most of you are so brainwashed by our current male bashing culture that you can't even imagine a casual atmosphere where people can calmly and safely discuss sexual matters without prompting a witch hunt. One poster claimed that I thought that what the man did was what was beautiful. But it's OK to misrepresent, isn't it? "At least it's not PLAGIARISM!", right? Larry, yes I did notice that you at least allowed for the possibility that the guy just acted spontaneously without thinking. I guess when I said "your comments aren't worth responding to" it was with distinction, not without exception. Sure, removed from its context, what the guy did was, at the least, inappropriate, but these women gripe at me saying I don't have meaningful input because I don't know what it's like to be pinned down and raped. Do they, or even us men, know what it's like to not be able to have an erection for 20 years? Would being healed from that be worthy of maybe a little bit of enthusiasm? At least he wasn't walking and leaping and ... whatever.

quote: It's simply not true that TWI encouraged us to read any materials that they did not first approve or recommend. Yes, John, they did encourage reading non-TWI authored books. ( Non-TWI books that they preselected). Even in the PFAL class, VPW challenged us to *put away all secular materials*. Do you not remember that? I said that 70s/80s twi didn't discourage us from reading non twi books. I heard references to them all the time in teachings, both at HQ and at the twig level. Yes, I remember VP saying to put away all secular materials...as a challenge, not as a command, and that only for 3 months, saying if we did it, we wouldn't know ourselves.

quote: Excuse me, Waysider, but Rascal is the one who did this. Reread the thread. O RLY? QUOTE(johniam @ Aug 20 2007, 09:38 AM) (snip) In 70s/80s TWI they didn't discourage reading material from other authors. (snip) Yes, really.

Never let it be said on GSC that the deacons don't deac and the elders don't eld. So how's the view from the cheap seats guys? At least I was THERE. Your comments aren't worth responding to.