johniam

VP was not giving a blanket judgement on all Christianity; his alternative if he couldn't have an abundant life was to get out of the ministry and quit promoting something he himself couldn't live. Perhaps he figured that the verse where Jesus said "he that is unfaithful in that which is least is also unfaithful in that which is much" applied here. That "that which is least" is financial abundance and "that which is much" is spiritual abundance, fruit of the spirit. Many unbelievers shun any religion which keeps people poor. VP was just trying to be honest. As for what constitutes material or spiritual abundance? Dictionary defines abundance as having full sufficiency. Having something to give (or not give) beyond what you need. Paul said he received an abundance of revelation in the thorn in the flesh section (2 Cor. 12). Jesus said a man's life does not consist in the abundance of the things he possesses (Luke 12:15). Some religious people are always trying to put down rich people. They claim to be morally superior, but it's just envy. Being rich is just a tool, a menu item, something that can be used to the help or hurt of whoever is rich. It doesn't make anyone's life better in and of itself. Rich people may have more things than regular people, but they also have more headaches. It's not worth envying. VP was talking about people who didn't even have their needs met. People who thought it was God's will for them to be poor and sick. VP attacked that religious idea a LOT.

I remember in pfal VP said he was "dynamically concerned" with the subject of philosophy, or something like that. He never elaborated on that, that I know of. LCM spoke live at my AC in '84; said good stuff about Thoreaux and Emerson. Perhaps they thought philosophy was a challenging way to 'discern truth from error'.

Hi, Dot. Is exwayvision the site you're referring to? BTW glad to hear that you and Groucho have hit it off. Congrats.

Nietzsche, huh? I read something by him once. Beyond good and evil. Like some of his contemporaries (Dostoevsky, Freud, et al) he tosses around generic philosophical questions and concludes that mankind's existence is absurd at best. Without the spirit of God, it IS absurd. Vanity of vanities. I'll spring for the next round of beer, BTW.

First, Grateful Dead lyrics are not scripture. Like scripture, however, they can pop up and attach themselves to our thoughts for our consideration. Then we decide how much relevance they have. "His job is to shed light, not to master" is the last line (summary and conclusion??? :) of the 'Lady with a fan' part of Terrapin station. Not a 100% match to scripture. I think pfal has a TON of light in it! I don't think VP was an evil man. I think he did evil things. I think he was part of an entire generation of men who thought women existed for their pleasure. Lot of men who were bosses who hired secretaries for something other than just stenography. Did Esther sleep her way to the top? Some would think so. I think VP really WAS called of God to teach his word. Around age 50 his farm began to host many young women at a time. He's not supposed to notice? Interestingly, Robert Hunter, Jerry Garcia's lyricist, describes one productive songwriting day as "one great, glowing apocatastasis". He wrote lyrics to 3 Dead songs, all keepers, in one day. You might remember VP using the greek word hypokatastasis as the third degree of figures of speech which cause change (similie, metaphor, and hypocatastasis). Apocatastasis is in an English dictionary. It means 1)a restoring, and 2)a planet returning to a particular point in its orbit. Not sure which one he meant; guessing the 2nd. I think pfal has a ton of light in it. Willing to let God take care of VP, however it plays out.

I think it's kind of ironic that beginning in '94 they rooted out people who didn't have money. They packaged it all "spiritual", but they must've figured that anybody whose "believing wasn't sufficient" to put more money in the horn weren't worth the headaches. First they got rid of people who were in debt, then they got rid of "unproductive evil" which amounts to people who didn't ABS enough. The war on homos was probably an "earmark" in this strategy. A show of spirituality with no substance. What I find ironic, though, is that the people in twi who rose up in leadership the right way did so by helping those who were weak. By being a source of comfort and stability; making people feel loved, not judged. There was a time in twi when many people were like that even if they weren't leaders. IMO that's how the body of Christ is supposed to work. That's how any family is supposed to work. What the hell was LCM thinking?

I remember a sns tape from '95 where LCM was angry about during the previous year only 12% of new pfal grads renewed their subscription of the way mag. He said, "you got money for HBO, Cinemax, etc. but not for the way mag?? He was very mad.

***************************************************** Lately, I considered the record in 1 Sam 28 about the 'witch' of Endor. Saul wanted to ask counsel of one who had a familiar spirit. But there were no 'witches are us' stores apparently, so Saul went to a lot of trouble to find one with a familiar spirit, even crossing enemy lines. This is the only biblical record I can think of where a witch is covered in detail. OK, fast forward to Salem, MA. There were no witches are us stores then, either. So hows come all these girls were guilty of witchcraft in a small community like that? I'm more likely to believe that a clergyman with the help of corrupt town leaders needed to silence any girl who wouldn't submit herself sexually to them. Also, I remember that a 6th corps grad named Tom Benner had a witchcraft background before twi which was discussed graphically in a Heart magazine issue. Wonder what he might say about this, since he is no longer with twi.

Money seems to be the biggest stumbling block for God's people. Jesus had someone who watched over the money (John 12:3-6). That didn't work out really well, did it? I was a twig cordo for 3 years. I do not recall ever being told to squeeze those in my twig for their money. I passed the horn around, and occasionally taught on ABS, but put no other pressure on anyone.

Last year my daughter wanted me to take her to a movie called Whip it. Movie is about a 17 year old girl from Texas whose mother was always getting her to enter beauty contests and live that whole lifestyle. The girl, however, had different aspirations. She wanted to do roller derby, although that term was never used. She got herself on a girls only roller skating team called the 'Hurl scouts' and did just fine. These girls would skate around in a circle and kinda rough each other up and at the end of the competition one team would win and the other would lose. She fit in quite well. Eventually her mom found out and there were hard feelings. Near the end of the movie there was one key scene where the girl was with one of her skating teammates, a thirty something single mom played by Drew Barrymore. Drew's character was explaining to the 17 yr old about how she never went to the parties after the games because she didn't think it would be best for her 8 yr old son. At one point she said, "just because you find a new family doesn't mean you have to throw out the old one". After this, with give and take from both sides, the 17 yr old reconciled with her family without having to give up roller skating. Good flick, I thought. But that statement about a 'new family' stuck with me. TWI was definitely a new family for me, but not the first. The drug culture was my first new family. It seemed like such a refreshing change from the scene the adults were always trying to cram down everybody's throat, plus you didn't have to be a jock, an A student, or any of the other prerequisites for participation in a "legitimate" clique; all you had to do was participate and you were accepted in the drug culture. But this did not last. By the time I left the drug culture it seemed like just another way to CONFORM or be cast out. Enter TWI. I have an older sister who moved to NYC in 1969. She started going to meetings of the 'Women's liberation movement'. She went to all the meetings she could at first It was a safe haven. She could openly discuss her dissatisfaction with being a second class citizen in a male dominated world and receive encouragement and reenforcement. After awhile she stopped going to meetings. During a 1998 phone conversation with her, she told me she still considers herself a feminist, but that it wasn't a safe haven anymore. She saw too many instances where young women would be talking to older more cynical feminists and the attitude was..."oh, you made THOSE mistakes? Well, you must be really stupid; don't even talk to ME". This was disturbing to my sister. TWI is still a new family to me. I don't go to (THEIR) meetings anymore, but the meetings I do go to are a safe haven like before. I'm also glad that I didn't throw out my "old" family. They're still all liberals and we don't have much contact, but at no time have I not been speaking to anyone in my biological family. I think GSC has been a new family for many of us. The world doesn't care about people like us. This is poignantly revealed in one comment on the link to the 'Talk soup' clip. If you click on 'What hath God wrought' you can see comments on the E channel's website. The first few comments are about the dancing skills of TWI, or lack of them. Then some GSers get on there, then some TWI people, and comment #27 by 'chris' says, "wow, there's a lot of angry people here. The way s*cks/ the way's great. Get over it. You're all lame". That, IMO, sums up the world's attitude. We were losers for being Christian in the first place, then we were bigger losers for being in a "cult", then even worse for "whining" about stuff. Despite my often pro twi stance, I feel a strange sense of belonging to this place. What will this new family do?

The only thing I would have done differently is I would've left twi around 1990 or so instead of being forced out in 1994. Originally, twi was a safe haven for me. Then after 1989 when the loyalty letter hit, it slowly became more and more abusive. Other than that, nothing different. TWI not only gave me a belief system, they gave me a support system (people). I met my wife there, and established rapport with many other people which continues to the present day. Getting involved with twi is the smartest thing I did in my life. 34 years later.

VP defined a law as...a command to do something, or to refrain from doing something, issued by a competent authority, according to jurisprudence. But the competent authority is only as competent as the jurisprudence. If it's manmade, then the integrity is going to be limited, but if there is such a thing as the God breathed word, then its integrity (jurisprudence) is standard equipment. VP was saying that the devil chips away at the integrity of the word as a strategy that has worked very well. That nobody believes the bible has integrity anymore. True? The integrity of the word was the lynch pin of pfal. No coincidence that session 3 began with the strongest emphasis on the integrity of the word immediately before JCING. His job was to shed light, not to master.

quote: Over time, the name for the type of service associated with the "meal" service has become the name for the type of service itself regardless of whether "mess" or "meal" is taken. In Gen. 43:34 the word 'mess' refers to the portion size of what they were eating. Interesting.

My wife was at the gym few days ago when someone else said merry Christmas to a third person at the gym. Third person got really offended, said "how DARE you say that to me?" Weird. Yes, even back in the mid 80s one could be reproved by ministry clergy for saying merry Christmas or happy Easter. LCM would say merry Christ is dead! In the 90s he was even mad that the days of the week were all named after pagan things, though. He was apparently going to save Christianity with his stand. Jeez, it's just a positive greeting. If I said 'break a leg' to someone, does that mean I want them to be injured?

Wow. In may of '09 I drove thru Nebraska on the way back from Yellowstone. Family vacation. Going there we went thru SD to see Mt. Rushmore, but after swinging by Salt Lake City to visit a friend it was I80 all the way to Iowa. Around Lincoln we took some state hwy due east to Iowa; saved ourselves maybe 50 miles by not going thru Omaha. But I thought of you, as well. You live in that general area don't you?

I'd first try to walk with God on the situation. If there's a persistent negative impulse that won't alter or go away, then maybe it's not a good idea, but, as Paw said, either the bride or the groom, after much thought, wants you to be there. At worst, it's extending an olive branch, and it just might be possible that whoever invited you has always respected you and bit their tongue when the conversation was about people who left "God's" ministry, but it's "MY wedding dammit and I want Catcup to be there". Something like that. If there's people there who knew you, they will probably be just as guarded in what they say to you as you will be to them. No harm no foul. When Jean and I got married both our families were there: my ultra liberal one and her devout Christian Reformed one. From their pov, the same caution may have been in play, but nobody died, it was all good. If it was me, there would be a point at which I would just make a decision and not look back.

Abigail: I meant that you guys went easy on me. I never found out why I got suspended the 2nd time. I thought they were just going to run me out of here whatever it took. I know that isn't true now, but I said to myself, hey man, you been posting as a minority opinion for 7 years and these folks seem to need a break from you, so why don't you take a break from them as well. Few days later I logged on at someone else's place to show him the Athletes/Rocky horror video. After that I didn't even LURK here until this past Nov 8th. I thought about getting on here during the last month before the '08 election because I wondered what ClayJay and Templelady might have to say about Sarah Palin, but didn't. I came back because I wondered if Howard Allen was still alive and if GSC doesn't know, NOBODY knows. I see his wife has passed plus a few others I didn't know about, but seeing the graphics and the forums I just found myself reading threads again. What can I say? One thing I did before posting again was to reread the entire thread of 'A few big things I learned taking pfal'. Doing that reminded me what GSC was like at the time I left. It also allowed me to read my own posts from a detatched pov, not caught up in the emotions of the moment. There were times when, without provocation, I introduced a harsh tone into a benign section of posts. Not cool. I really did need a time out. Glad I got here before the end.

Mike: Yep; still cleaning windows. In 15 minutes I'll be heading downtown to do just that in 20 degrees, yikes! Yeah, my PM status is a mystery to me, too. Email is mojeanspencer@yahoo.

Raf, Abigail, ClayJay (J Lingo) and Oakspear. All you guys are moderators? I'm surprised I didn't get suspended MORE.

Hey, Mike. How you doin'?

quote: We have now become God's Secret Squirrels!" But...I wanted to be one of God's Morocco Moles.

I still have a lot of thoughts on this one. I was 9 in 4th grade. Just after we came back to school after lunch the intercom started crackling. Someone said the pres. had been shot, nothing more. Then after recess one of the 6th grade teachers was standing just outside the door with a serious look on her face making sure everybody got inside in a timely manner. I knew then that something was up. Not long after we all got back in our seats, the intercom came back on saying that JFK was dead. They didn't send us home, but they gave us time to react to it. Several kids were crying. I was not. My dad died on Oct. 22, exactly 1 month previous. After getting that day off from school as well as the day of the funeral 2 days later, plus having every eye in the funeral home seemingly fixed on me because I was so young, well...I just wasn't inclined to cry the day JFK died. By the end of that day everyone of us kids now had been exposed to the reality of death. As far as American culture never being the same goes, I have always wondered if there was a correlation between JFKs assassination and the unusual degree of acceptance the Beatles received in the USA, just 2 months later. It's like a lot of people were unconsciously looking for anything that might assuage their grief. I also don't believe for a second that Oswald acted alone. He was seen by eyewitnesses sitting at a table with Jack Ruby in Ruby's night club 2 weeks before the assassination. Several people died of unnatural causes who had connections to the assassination, including What's my line panelist Dorothy Kilgallen. An LA area policeman and a Dallas area reporter who were in Jack Ruby's apartment the night Oswald was killed each died mysteriously less than a year later. The cop was "accidentally" shot by another cop and the reporter was found dead from a blow to the neck near his bathtub. The weirdest one was a 22 year old actress named Karen Kupcinet, the daughter of Irv Kupcinet, a media person from Chicago, who only died a few years ago in his 90s. She had a role on the then TV show 'Hawaian Eye'. She apparently overheard some of her dad's friends discussing the assassination before it happened. She heard enough detail that she tried to call Dallas police HQ from a pay phone. She yelled, They're going to kill the president, they're going to kill the president!!!" But the call didn't go through; the only one who heard her was an operator. Twenty minutes later, when they DID kill the president, the operator certainly made a tape of her call and gave it to FBI. Six days later, which was Thanksgiving day that year, she was murdered. What a coincidence. They STILL have not told us what really happened. Can you believe that JFK has now been dead longer than he had been alive?

quote: "if God could speak directly to your mind, He'd have to allow Satan to speak directly to your mind. Then we'd all be lost". I remember during my WOW training in '77 there was a skit presented to us in which a wow is witnessing to a man and when the man finds out it's TWI he goes "Oh, yes! The way. That's a cult! I heard about them on TV". Right then the devil says to the wow, "tell him that the Catholic church is a cult". So the wow does it and the man says, "Is that so? Wellll...*I* happen to be Catholic! Humph!" and he storms off. Then the devil says to the wow, "Well THAT was a dumb thing to say." But later in the skit the wow listens to God and emerges victorious. But as far as the devil not being able to speak directly to your mind, didn't satan enter into Judas after the sop (John 13:27)? And didn't satan fill Ananias' heart to lie to the Holy Ghost (Acts 5:3)? I just don't remember being taught that God COULDN'T speak directly to your mind. Must've screened it out.

I'm sure not interested in going to that fellowship. Not AFRAID to, but without the constant yelling the SNS sounded like something from the early 80s.

quote: God is not manna. God is not manna, that he should lie. Be that as it may, I am not concerned with whether VP chose the right words in that section. Before PFAL I had no idea that Adam's failure to obey God had any relationship to why Jesus had to come. If there was no change in God's relationship with Adam and Eve (mankind), then just what DID God mean when he said "in the day thou eatest thereof, thou shalt surely die"? Odd that when Jesus came the devil seemed to KNOW that something huge was at stake, yet he played right into God's hands by having him crucified. Reminds me of some of the mind games police and prosecutors use to manipulate suspects on TV cop/lawyer shows. My favorite verse on God communicating with people is Heb 4:12. For the word of God is quick and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. Dividing asunder of soul and spirit means that 'soul' is your 5 senses mind, designed by creation to formulate its own thoughts, but 'spirit' is the spirit of God, which can certainly access our minds. If you were to tell an educated person that God talks to you, he/she would assume that you hear voices or something. Not necessarily. I've never heard God speak to me in an audible voice. Many times I've been in conversations with one or more people when someone who is speaking will just stop and say "Why did I say that?", and then continue the conversation. Not that the person was controlled, but whatever thought(s) immediately preceded what was said that the person wondered about was either not normally in that person's thoughts or it was not what the person planned to verbalize. This suggests to me that the thought(s) in question may have been put there by God. Excathedra: I don't know what's up with my PM status; I clicked on the help link but I couldn't tell whether anything was disabled or no. Faces referred to yours and others I recognize.