johniam

quote: Mental illness As Pentecostalism expanded in the 20th century and attracted the attention of the wider world, psychologists initially thought of glossolalia in pathological terms, thinking that it was caused by mental illness. In 1927 George Cutten described speakers in tongues as people of low mental abilities. This explanation was effectively refuted in 1969 by a team from the University of Minnesota, who conducted an extensive study covering the United States, Mexico, Haiti and Colombia; they reached practitioners among Pentecostals, other Protestant groups, and Roman Catholics. Cutten's contentions concerning psychopathology, quoted and re-quoted through the years, have taken on an aura of fact among non-Pentecostal churchmen who are critical of the movement. His assumption that glossolalia is linked to schizophrenia and hysteria has not been supported by any empirical evidence. Subsequently, a 2003 statistical study in the religious journal Pastoral Psychology concluded that, among the 991 male evangelical clergy sampled, glossolalia was associated with stable extroversion, and contrary to some theories, completely unrelated to psychopathology. AHA!!!!!! Would you look at THAT! What we have here...is a bunch of natural men who happen to have educational degrees...sitting in judgement of God's people. That Cutten guy (yeah, he'd like to do a little bit of 'cutten' all right) was so locked into his agenda that all he saw was mental instability, just like all LCM saw was AOS for a time. I definitely think VPs MINISTRY had a lot to do with the conclusion of the 2003 statistical study, that SIT is "stable extroversion". Good for them. VP was a pioneer. He made SIT easy, practical, harmless. You should be asking why the devil still tries to do so much to queer SIT.

quote: It would seem to me that you haven't bothered to investigate this possibility with an open mind. I say that because you haven't even bothered to learn the correct spelling of glossolalia. My feeling on this is...if it ain't broke, don't "fix it". quote: Do I worry about being born again? No, not really. I live my life the best I can and try to live by The Golden Rule. If that's not good enough... Not good enough? It's not necessary. The golden rule is not the criteria for salvation. Jesus said "sinners lend unto sinners hoping to receive again". Those "sinners" are practicing the golden rule aren't they? Sure! The whole point of salvation by Jesus Christ is that all of mankind is not "good enough" by their own works. That all of mankind (the world that God so loved) needs a savior. That without what Jesus accomplished by his death and resurrection, there would be no hope for mankind whatsoever. quote: Earn eternal life by preaching the evils of VPW? What makes you think I'm trying to earn eternal life? People have a right to know that The Way is/was a scam and that Wierille was a con artist. Would I be following The Golden Rule if I intentionally led them to believe otherwise? VP taught us to read the bible. That's not a scam.

quote: Is this what you are trying to say? No, it was fine without your asides. quote: who's to say the victoid was a man, to begin with? His death certificate. quote: Maybe you could name a few of them.. asides the *few* who have a product to sell. and who are "us"? Us are them. Product to sell...like Krys and KK? I could name many, but I don't want anybody bugging them. Lots of our kids are into it, too...not just as "my mom and dad's religion"...they're really into it like we have been. Like the witch said in the beginning of the movie the sword and the sorcerer, "It lives". If a donkey could speak God's word to Balaam, who (or what) couldn't speak God's word? There is no substitute for salvation by Jesus Christ, neither death nor life nor angels, principalities, powers, things present, things to come, etc. Waysider: on either the rephrase this thread or the red flag session one thread you said you got a empty feeling in the pit of your stomach when you realized that SIT was only glossolalea or grossology, or whatever it was. Does this still persist? Do you really believe that you might not be born again? Sometimes you act like you may think your only possible shot at eternal life is by spending every possible moment of the rest of your life preaching VPs evil from the housetops. Say it ain't so.

Minister means serve. Teachings, classes, fellowships, etc.

Yeh, let's talk about other things that don't exist, like the liberal bias in the media. There are thousands of us who believe VP ministered God's word to us. You haven't talked to all of us. To you, we're just..."collateral benefit". Right? What else is there to talk about that hasn't been talked about ad nauseum? Wait! I got a swell idea! Let's talk about Yes and the rock and roll gift ministries! Wasn't this place supposed to be no more by now?

Hey, screw this. Let's talk about Yes again. I got on youtube and listened to a 12/72 video of Yours is no disgrace. Right now I'm listening to Gates of Delirium. THAT song is one serious roller coaster ride. Probably a lot of lyrics in there you guys might use to describe twi (pounding out the devil's sermon). OK now I got the revealing science of God. On the Gates of Delirium page somebody posted that the song was..."not bad for a band deemed unfit for the rock and roll hall of fame. They must just not have that special quality that John Cougar, Madonna, and Blondie all have, I guess....". LOL. They came to STL last year, but Jon Anderson wasn't with them; medical issues. Sure hope they come back with at least JA, Squire, and Howe. Don't go to that many concerts anymore, but me and Jean saw the Eagles at Busch stadium last summer. It was good.

1 John 2:1 - My little children, these things write I unto you that ye sin not, and if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous I'm going to go have a beer.

Congratulations!!! Awww that's great! When I read the thread title I thought that you were getting involved in the Big Brother program. Oops.

Waysider, you must be the on the spot reporter, chasing me from thread to thread, hoping a story will break. I NEVER post on the politics forum. But I did last week and there you were. Well, on the spot reporter, you missed a spot. quote: BTW, johniam, I find it amusing you should quote that particular line from Yours Is No Disgrace out of context. Context? If anything I was being a smarta$$. Now look CLOSELY at the first post on this thread. At the bottom of it, there are words in smaller print. They are the first line of that song. From memory the 2nd line just popped into my head (retemory ). So I added it to my post. What "context" am I out of? I haven't heard that song in years. Saw Yes live 6 times, 6 consecutive US tours, from 8/72 through 6/76. For awhile, they would switch off between Yours is no disgrace and Starship trooper as their encore. The first 2 times I saw them were in the SF bay area, so they probably remembered that their encore in 8/72 was Yours is no disgrace, so the next time they came there, in 4/73, their encore was Starship trooper. Awesome band. Hey, talk about songs not being scripture? Tell that to the other posters on this thread. But it occured to me that before twi rock and roll bands and lyrics were our gift ministries. They seemed to function that way. Some songs just seemed to ring true for EVERYBODY. And if you had a negative opinion about such a song you generally kept your mouth shut. Those bands gave us great music and memories, but they didn't give us salvation by Jesus Christ.

Of course, 2 albums later they sing.... a seasoned witch can call you from the depths of your disgrace. First, mine is no disgrace, then somehow I got disgrace. Must have come in on the Fragile album. Just like the Stones, in 1964 time was on their side, but by 1974 time waits for no one. Fickle, I tell ya.... Salvation through Jesus Christ is yea and amen.

Geisha: How can we feel good about God or anything if we don't feel good about ourselves? God didn't call us out as indentured servants; He called us as sons and daughters. You can't sell joy and peace to anyone else if you aren't convinced you've got it yourself. I felt overwhelmed sometimes when I did LSD. Feelings come and go. Incorruptible seed is God's doing. It's not a scam.

Brainfixed, you lost me with that last post.

Cman: If you got help from a mental health professional, praise God! I'm only saying what's worked for me. God wants you to feel good about yourself.

calling evil good - 1) debt purge - demanding that any way corps who was not out of debt by the ROA (6 months) was to be dropped from active corps. 2) homo purge - actively looking for "homo infiltration" by relying on "reasonable spiritual suspicion"; that means looking at someone and thinking, "yeah, I bet HE'S queer!" 3) unproductive evil purge - deciding that certain people weren't ABSing enough. 4) making people record their daily schedule in 15 minute intervals (control). 5) making it mandatory to "report back" (control). 6) calling themselves a "ministry" (service) at this point. calling good evil - 1) pregnancy policy 2) someone wanting a secular career in music, business, etc. 3) someone not wanting to be way corps just because they didn't feel like it 4) someone not wanting to go wow just because they didn't feel like it Of course, all this stuff may have been practiced by some individuals and not others. During the 80s I heard several twi gift ministries say to remember the good that our parents taught us...principles...stuff that worked for them...not necessarily Christian principles. I sent my mother a birthday card and thanked her for some of that kind of stuff. Years later, when I had to have her live in a nursing home, and when my siblings and I had to go through her stuff and decide who keeps what and what gets thrown out, I saw that she'd kept the card I'd sent her. Made me cry.

Nope! I believe VP was a man of God and I walk among you. Caesar's palace, morning glory, silly human race.

Wordwolf: Once again you misrepresent me. quote: I have no use whatsoever for psychotherapy, but that doesn't mean it hasn't helped anyone. I've been to mental health professionals 3 times (3 periods of time). In 1971 my mom thought I was crazy cause I smoked pot and dropped acid. In 1975 the state of MI required me to get counselling after I was arrested for marijuana the 2nd time. I used the same counsellor both times. In 1976 I myself thought I needed it. This third time the guy for sure was a psychotherapist. I'm not sure about the other guy. The last guy was into something called rational emotive therapy. Gave me a book. That sounds like another oxymoron, just like "reasonable spiritual suspicion". Not one of those guys helped me. I can't even remember anything they ever said to me. I quit going to the last guy after 3 or 4 sessions. He voiced his objection. Later that year I got in the word. Whew! Quote: It's shocking how all the people who denigrate Psychiatry don't even know the main difference between Psychiatry and Psychology. The main difference, which you didn't even state, is that in order to be a psychiatrist, one has to already have a medical doctor's degree; this enables them to prescribe drugs. A psychologist basically talks to you. I learned that in intro to psychology at a community college. As I said, I admit that psychology/psychiatry has helped some people, but it pales next to the word of God. I knew 2 believers who died because of medication prescribed to them for "depression". One of them just kept getting more and more meds to take; died at 42; body shut down. The other one was in his mid 50s; mixed beer with the meds; died in a recliner. Jesus had to walk on water because there were no jet skis he could rent. I suppose it is possible that Jesus had to directly heal some of those people because of chemical imbalances because there was no medication for it at the time. What about the guy crying and cutting himself in the tombs? What would a psychologist recommend today for a guy like that? PFAL? Christianity? Didn't think so. One concern I have is that because of the clout the industry has in our culture, they could say that Jesus never had a psych evaluation done on him. How do we know that he wasn't a paranoid schizophrenic? We'd better outlaw all copies of the bible from now on. Can't happen here? I've read a few more chapters of Billy Graham's book. I didn't say he was evil. He is Christian. It's very easy to tell this by his writings. The world calls him an evangelist, but he functions more as a prophet, I think. VPs definitions of the gift ministries have not been often disputed here on GSC that I recall. An evangelist is one who speaks for God to those outside the pail, so to speak; one who wins the lost. A prophet is one who speaks for God to God's people, either by foretelling or by forth telling. Some of Jeremiah's writings are addressed to nations other than Israel. Although he was never called an evangelist, it's clear that both men spoke to God's people and to others. BG is always calling people back to God, back to the word of God. He has much reproof for Christians in this book, even ministers. I heard VP diss BG twice live. Once in Apr '78 he said BG didn't stick up for Anita Bryant; just let her get thrown to the wolves when she was taking heat for her homo stand. Then in '82 during lunch at Living Victoriously he said BG made an a$$ of himself in Russia and made the Russian leaders just want to continue persecuting Christians. That doesn't even include the scathing remarks he made about him in the SNS teaching called 'The way of life and death' from March '76. I know an 11th corps grad who told me he was an usher at a BG crucade before he was in twi. Said one night BG all but said he SIT'd and it was a good thing. Next night he took it all back. You just don't get that kind of money behind your ministry without SOMEONE (a person) having the option of giving you marching orders if they feel like it. VP had the guts to go it alone. I respect that. We were NOT brainwashed; we believed something that made logical sense to us. Remember, Jesus was slandered by those Jews. That had a lot to do with his crucifiction even being possible. Paul was slandered; Martin Luther was slandered. VPs evil doesn't negate the word of God. What are you all going to do if VPs "judgement" isn't as ugly as you think it should be? Demand that God let you die the 2nd death with the unbelievers?

Waysider. One reason I don't always respond to your posts is because, IMO, you seem to have a consistent, one dimensional method of processing what people post. I have no use whatsoever for psychotherapy, but that doesn't mean it hasn't helped anyone. While I find the educational system to have its flaws, I still recognize that it's not going anywhere and that it's always going to be a common point of reference in many topics of discussion. I'm certain that educators and psychologists will freely quote scripture, or quote opinions of religious leaders if they think it will support their point, positively or negatively.

quote: So now.....you are going to compare the works of VP to psychiatrists? No comparison. As I posted earlier, that would be like comparing an AK47 to a pocket knife.

This is what can happen on a witch hunt. You get in 'witch hunt mode' and just start accusing everybody in your path of everything under the sun. TWI did this in 1994 with the debt purge, homo purge, and unproductive evil purge. "Pure evil thinking"??? That's got to be another oxymoron to add to the list. Right up there with Cheryl Crow's 'My favorite mistake'.

quote: YET.......in all wierwille and twi leadership bravado, I never saw or heard one incident of anyone casting out a devil spirit. I never saw or heard VP on the motor coach. So what. I bet VP cast out more spirits than any psychiatrist ever did :) .

quote: i would not allow any children around you and i would warn anybody i knew about the things you have written here. That's interesting. Just hours ago I was told by several degreed educational professionals that my wife and I are committed, involved parents whom they really appreciate working with, as well as our 3 kids. These people have known us for over 10 years. But you can read a few of my posts, and you know all about me. Nice. If you don't want feedback, why are you posting? To be frank, based on what I've seen you write, I wouldn't let you be put in any sort of authority over children either. Do I know all about you? No. But to me your writings suggest you have some broken boundaries when it comes to establishing healthy sexual boundaries toward children, at least in your mind. To this point you refuse to see it in yourself and you throw up defenses in avoidance. I'm going to step out of this discussion now because I have nothing more to add that hasn't already been said. In the end we stand before the Father and all of us will have to give an account. With that being said, I wish you Godspeed. Broken arrow: Feedback doesn't have to imply slander. What gives you or anyone else the "authority" to judge me. That's the self righteous attitude that persists to this day I referred to earlier. BTW, two years ago I had a second job as a substitue custodian in our school district. I worked 2 nights a week from 3-11. I have never been screened for a job as thoroughly as this...FBI background check, child abuse background check, you name it. They hired me, and most of my assignments were to elementary schools. I'm 56 years old. Do you think they would have let me anywhere near KIDS if there was anything at all on my record???? You're the ones saying that sex offenders don't just do stuff once, that there's a pattern. quote: Not my business really, but did it ever strike you as strange when you were in TWI that his other two daughters spent practically no time at all at HQ, and that you hardly heard much about them? Don didn't spend much time there either until he was brought on board. Don was getting his PHD up to the time they brought him on board (1977) and each of the other daughters was married to a successful man. Karen was involved in editing/proofreading VPs books and Mary's husband, John Summerville, was regularly talking to VP and the way corps. But don't let me stop your witch hunt. I'm reading a Billy Graham book right now, called 'World aflame' (1965). He had many of the same concerns VP did in pfal. Was BG a good man? Most of you would probably say so. He had access to really famous people that VP never did. I've heard people say that BG never had any scandals associated with him. Idolatry (trinity) is definitely a scandal as far as God is concerned. I've only read the first 3 chspters, but the one thing that sticks out in my mind is that he really bought into psychiatry/psychology, which to me is clearly a counterfeit of the wisdom of God. I do have some respect for BG (he is, after all a Christian whose impact has been felt for decades), but it surprises me that he can't (couldn't) see that psychiatry/psychology is, at best, a generous mouth piece of world wisdom. At worst, it's a scam. In the bible, people with symptoms of "mental illness" were being attacked by unclean spirits. Jesus din't say thou unclean SYNDROME I command thee come out of him. Nor did he say unclean developmental disorder, he said SPIRIT!! We've all heard people who see devil spirits in everything, but they do actually exist. Psychiatrists/psychologists believe there's no such thing as spirits/ that everything is "all in your mind". That's like taking a knife to a gun fight. All they do is drug people with more damaging and powerful drugs than the pot and acid we all did, which only serves to incapacitate the mind of the patient so the spirit(s) is now limited in what it can get the patient to do. They don't actually cure (remove the cause) the person's problem. The drugs will certainly shorten the person's life. It's a multi billion dollar scam. These people (psychiatrists and psychologists) actually have enough clout that they're allowed to testify in court as "expert witnesses" about why someone behaves as he/she does. What a joke. Devil must be laughing his rear end off. They might as well have Gomer Pyle testify as an expert witness for the Marine corps. I can see that some of you also buy into this false wisdom. No thanks.

What a house of cards this is if one dissenting poster can upset the apple cart this much. quote: As others mentioned VP sexually molested his own daughter... what makes you think she was a teen ager and what makes you think he only did it once She lives in MI. Why don't you call her and ask her about it rather than blindly believe what someone posted here. There's a website called zabasearch.com that will give phone numbers and addresses for free. Go ahead, call her. And while you're at it, why don't you ask her how she feels about the things said here about her dad? quote: the holiness of worship in the act.. So you think the sex act itself is holy? What happens when you want to do it and he doesn't? Who is 'out of fellowship'? Can't be you, right? How about when he wants to and you don't? His fault again, right? Sounds kinda one sided to me. You sound like the TV drama women I referred to earlier. Always right. Always in control of the relationship by the utilization of double standards. You don't like dealing with "uppity, insubordinate" men like myself who wouldn't let you get away with that, huh? quote: i would not allow any children around you and i would warn anybody i knew about the things you have written here. That's interesting. Just hours ago I was told by several degreed educational professionals that my wife and I are committed, involved parents whom they really appreciate working with, as well as our 3 kids. These people have known us for over 10 years. But you can read a few of my posts, and you know all about me. Nice. All of you I just quoted: you read my posts, but you leech onto and fixate about 1 or 2 sentences, pause them, enlarge them, think evil about them, and the only thing that prevents you from acting on the evil thinking is that you're there and I'm here. Look. Less than one week to go. Are you going to let me ruin your final GSC experience? You have a thread on this forum about cults in the first century. I won't be posting there. Enjoy. One last reminder: you're all born again, you have incorruptible seed and a lively hope. You will be gathered together when the Lord returns and you will be rewarded for all the good you have done in this life. This trumps any evil VP or anybody else could possibly do. Enjoy!

First, I am not subject to any of your religious rules. quote: doesn't the bible say that if you think a thing you've done the thing? No, it doesn't. It smells to me that you're referring to Matt. 5:27,28 - Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time Thou shalt not commit adultery. But I say unto you, that whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her committed adultery already with her in his heart. In other words, EVERYBODY does this, even (gasp) women. That's right. Jesus was speaking to only his disciples here (verse 1), so he didn't have to include women lusting after men in his point since there were no women in attendance. Some of the men there thought that if they hadn't committed adultery in actual fact, then they were "better" sinners, "better" natural men than those who did commit adultery in actual fact. Same self righteous attitude persists to this day in some religious people. Jesus was trying to set them straight on that. Think about it. Every single time you look at a man or a woman you make a judgement on their looks: either good looking, bad looking, or ordinary. If you think they're good looking, then where else are your thoughts going to go? Do you really con yourself that you NEVER think about SEX...what it might be like to actually do it with them? Most times you would look at the person, judge them as attractive, then quickly move on to what you needed to be thinking about, knowing that there was no way a relationship was ever going to happen and probably SHOULDN'T happen for any number of reasons. But the temptation is always there to start thinking about "how could I make this reality? Where would we meet? When? What is my alibi?" Your mind goes there as much as anybody else's. Just because you never committed adultery in actual fact doesn't mean you don't need the Lord Jesus Christ. THAT'S the point Jesus was making. Even the so called Mosaic law could only take people so far. The law made nothing perfect (Heb. 7:19). The law was weak through the flesh (Rom 8:3). Whose flesh? OURS! God condemned sin in the flesh. He didn't condemn Brainfixed in the flesh, or Johniam in the flesh, or VP in the flesh. If righteousness was available by the law, why did Jesus have to be tortured and die???? You KNOW all this. You folks who's righteousness is dependent on religious rules will never get that. Like I said before, there is not one human who lived to puberty who HASN'T been aroused by someone they couldn't possibly have an open relationship with. We ALL have the God given appetite for sexual desire. We live in a culture which has mores and laws like any other culture. Which culture would you rather live in? American culture where VP can try to get to you, or an Islamic culture where you could be burned for not being pleasing to your husband? There's always SOMETHING, isn't there? I may be subject to the laws of the US culture, and I may be subject to God ultimately, but I am not subject to YOUR rules about how I should think or verbalize things.

Well, I will admit that there is ONE aspect of all this that does bother me. Consent. God is a God of consent. Mary gave consent before she became the mother of the Christ child (Luke 1:38) and Jesus gave consent before he offered himself as sacrifice for our sin (Luke 22:42). Plus didn't we hear ad nauseum that God would NEVER overstep man's free will? I can excuse someone having desire. Although we have laws in this country regarding under age sex, for good reasons, we know that both males and females are able to cause conception and become pregnant at age 13 or so. I had my first sexual fantasy at age 12. It was about a 12 year old girl in my 7th grade homeroom. Having desire for someone that young is not "perverted". It's criminal if you actively pursue sexual relations, but it's not perverted to simply desire someone who is old enough to either cause conception (male) or get pregnant (female). Younger than that? There was a regular poster here named Adiosmicorazon. She hasn't posted to my knowledge in years, but reading her posts, one would conclude that she has been an above average attractive female for most of her life. She once made the point that it's OK to call a child 'cute' or 'pretty' (handsome if a male), but not 'sexy'. Those 3 words are the 3 generic words used to describe the appearance of males and females. There are other words used, like 'hot' but they all seem to gravitate back to cute, pretty (handsome), and sexy. Cute and pretty can be adjusted cosmetically, but not sexy. If a male or female is sexy and everybody notices it, they're not sexy because of what they do cosmetically (make up, hair, clothes, etc.), they're sexy because of how they think. Because of what they understand about themselves, their social/cultural environment. We see ads all the time about sexy hair, sexy clothes, and such, but hair and clothes aren't literally sexy, people are, and they communicate it with their eyes and their body language. Young children aren't old enough to have that understanding yet. They can be cute or pretty, but not sexy. A pedophile sees a flash of the adult the child will become, pauses it, enlarges it, fantasizes about it, and acts on the fantasy. VP has been accused of a lot of things, but not doing young children. Even the 46 year old middle school math teacher didn't do young children, just under age children. I can excuse simple desire, but not violation of consent; not using authority as a teacher/minister to coerce anyone, young or old, into a sexual relationship. That idea DOES bother me. I find it very disturbing. I have stated that people are angry. People have a right to be angry to an extent. It's OK to be angry at what VP did. It is. But many suns have gone down on the wrath of some of you. All the evil in the universe doesn't negate our hope, which includes no more tears plus all the other good stuff. Don't forget that.