johniam

quote: I'm still waiting for the "safe harbor" definition here. Safe from WHAT? And who was it that enjoyed any kind of tangible protection? Ps.107:28-30 - then they cry unto the Lord in their trouble, and He bringeth them out of their distresses. He maketh the storm a calm, so that the waves thereof are still. Then they are glad, because they be quiet; so He bringeth them unto their desired haven. I didn't use the phrase 'safe harbor'. I said 'safe haven'. Good havens, let's not harbor any more doubts about the Lord's goodness unto the children of men!

quote: Do you realize that if Johniam had not started piping in with his opinions, we wouldn't have had so much to talk about during these last days of GSC? That's the beauty of this place: I get to reaffirm my position and you all get to reaffirm yours. There are more of you than there is of me...HERE, but outside of here, who can say?

quote: Do you have any clue what is happening outside of your little bubble? No, do you? Geisha, no offense, but the purely interpersonal aspect of my posting relationship with you has taken on a quality that reminds me of an old SNL skit. It was during the very first year of SNL. Candace Bergen was the host and in the skit she was an investigative reporter interviewing Dan Aykroid, who was a toy maker. He made toys called bag o' glass, bag of nails, and Johnny switchblade killer ninja, or something like that. She was trying to gently convince him that his toys were dangerous and he kept blowing her off. He'd say, "I'm just giving the kids what they want!". This analogy is not a 100% match, but as for the purely interpersonal side of this, I think it's kind of humorous. I noticed you came on GSC in '06. These threads are kind of a replay of dialogue from 2000 to early 2008. Same basic conflict. Some of the women who used to dispute with me have not participated. If your private message is active, they've probably contacted you saying, "Look, don't engage this guy, he's nuts, he's loony, he's not going to see the light.", whatever it is. I'm not merely trying to get a rise, I'm stating my opinion, and believe it or not, I'm not the only one with opinions like these. While I believe that VP did bad things, I don't buy the whole hype. There is an infinity of things he's been accused of and you and others seem to blindly accept all of it as a truth package. I do not. Some (perhaps most) of that stuff is either fabricated or exaggerated. There's a reason why he was never arrested for anything and it's not because the devil was protecting his own. He taught us great truth about God and the accomplished works of His son Jesus Christ. Truth that is the same yesterday, today, and forever. God wasn't looking for a few good men; He only needed one. His son Jesus Christ. We have eternal life, which is truly more than abundant. We have access to God, peace in our hearts, we were called to the one body, the mystery, seated on the right hand of God, righteous, sanctified, justified, redeemed, reconciled and reconciling. That trumps any laundry list of sins. If you conclude that all VP taught is bogus because of his flesh, then the dominoes all start to fall; you might not have eternal life, you might not have access to God, and the mudslide continues. Why did God allow me to be so cruelly deceived. Does God care about me at all? Does God even exist? Then you have to start over at the beginning. Most people will revert back to whatever they did before twi; religion, drugs, whatever, but it's all despair. Not hope, despair. Some here have said prove all things, hold fast that which is good, but in practice, most of you think that once someone has heard what VP allegedly did, then there's a point where it is expected that the hearer must "repent and be made clean". Yet there are many acceptible ways to be "made clean" as long as they don't espouse anything twi. The blood of Jesus Christ has already cleansed us from all sin. One sacrifice. One offering. One savior. This hasn't gone anywhere.

quote: And BTW, it's been found that surgeons that use written checklists instead of memory cut the complication and death rate by a more than a third. Written checklists and medical books are not the same thing. You wouldn't do well witnessing to someone if you had to constantly recheck your bible. As an asst. mgr of a restaurant chain I had to do checklists every hour, but if we got busy, then all bets were off, and people who I assigned to do maintenance stuff or housekeeping stuff were whisked into the food prep area until the rush was over. Nothing wrong with checklists; they're like a buffer zone. My wife has MS. She injects herself with something called beta seron every 2 days. There is a step by step procedure how to do this. She's done it many times, yet she still likes me to assist her by reading each step; takes about 5 minutes. She could probably do it all by herself, but she says it comforts her that I'm there to help. Plus there is a rotation of several injection locations and sometimes it's much easier to get at certain locations with me pulling back her clothing so she has her hands free. VPs point is good. You really WOULDN'T trust your physical life to someone who didn't know their book. How about a lawyer. You'd want competence there, right? Another good teaching point he made was when he said that if your financial statement says you have a million dollars in the bank, you can't literally see the money, yet you trust what is written on the statement, and that we can trust what's written in scripture the same way. At a day in the word in 1978 VP said there was no better way to build a scope of spiritual understanding than by just reading the bible. Not collaterals, not word studies, not the way mag, just read the bible a lot. I'm not buying this stuff about twi publications equal scripture; the whole purpose of that other stuff was to point you in the direction of or to reenforce scripture as the word of God.

OU812? So you know something about logical positions? Never would've guessed.

bad guy: I'm a prophet...I'm a priest... Sly Stallone as Cobra: Ur a diZEEZE...and I'm the cure.

quote: as if you know what that means, we are not told to Quote wait for the gathering together anywhere at anytime 1 Thes. 1:10 - and to wait for His son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come. quote: Can you use another reference to make your point? (Aside from Way materials) Why should I? NOW what's the problem?

Certs is a candy mint! Certs is a breath mint! STOP! You're both right! We're both sons and daughters of God AND slaves.

quote: I would be very, very afraid, if I were you.. I mean.. you've got all of your eggs in the redemption basket. What if you are, simply, WRONG? what if you woke up one day.. and found EVERYTHING you thought and believed was just plain WRONG? where would you go, what would you do? I can ask you the same question. But the only way to find out is to wait for the gathering together...OR the resurrection of the unjust. I'm not afraid. Hmm. The band ACDC performed 'Highway to hell' at Bon Scott's funeral. They're not afraid, either. I've heard that Highway to hell AND Hotel California are both about the music business. So you admit that all you want to do is make people afraid. Jeremiah 20:3b,4 - Then said Jeremiah to him, the Lord hath not called thy name Pashur, but Magormisabib (fear all around). For thus saith the Lord, Behold, I will make thee a terror to thyself and to all thy friends, and they shall fall by the sword of their enemiesand thine eyes shall behold it; and I will give all Judah into the hand of the king of Babylon, and he shall carry them captive into Babylon, and shall slay them with the sword. Good thing it's the grace administration, huh?

VP was both an apostle and a teacher. One sent to give light. His main light was ADAN and the holy spirit stuff. JCING he did reluctantly. One of the best teaching analogies he did was the comparison in session 10 to a surgeon having to have all his medical textbooks on the gurney with the one being operated on to a minister who didn't know his book. You wouldn't trist your physical life to a man who doesn't know his book. Remember?PFAL was full of those alegorical examples. I heard he once taught the way corps for 5 hours on the wortd 'of' in Romans 1:1. (Paul, an apostle OF Jesus Christ...) LCM seemed to fit the partial definition of a prophet; warns the carnal Christian of God's displeasure, etc. Donnie Fugit was definitely an evangelist. So was John Lynn. Paul Merkel was a pastor. He was territory cordo in STL for 5 years, one of which as limb cordo as well. He could be sarcastic as hell. Son of a doctor, jazz buff, sports fan, especially hockey. He had this 4 foot long sword laying against the wall next to him when he would do twig cordo meetings. Once he told a 6th corps woman that he'd cut het tits off if she was late to a meeting again; that's how he would joke around, but he just had this effect on people. Everybody felt comfortable around him. We had 10 twigs in STL when he arrived and 21 within 2 years. That is why I believe he had the ministry of a pastor. I heard Bob Moynihan had a similar MO at Rome City. Gotta mention Walter Cummins as a teacher. He doesn't yell, he doesn't even vary the volume of his voice much and he has a dry sense of humor, but you can listen to him very easily. LCM taught in a monotone. Even when he was yelling it was easy for me to screen him out if I felt like it. VP paced himself. Him and Walter both would gently explain their points. Those ministries were at work in those men, and many others.

I haven't seen more puss filled black and white thinking than your hatred of VP. Your whole position is flawed. Ben Roethlisberger is a good NFL quarterback. But you all would say that he can't possibly be a good quarterback because he sexually assaulted at least one woman. How ridiculous! Ulysses S. Grant can't possibly be the right general for Lincoln to use because he drank too much. Ridiculous again! Being a man of God isn't just this moral platitude where you just keep your penis in your pants and miraculously God will make all the bad stuff go away. A man of God has to actually DO STUFF. Make right decisions. Decisions about what to emphasize, what to not emphasize, what to include in classes and teachings, what not to include. To borrow terminology from our president, VP may have been the only 'shovel ready' MOG around at the time. You all represent the kind of religion pfal delivered us from. Saved by works, not grace. Jesus is God, not the son of God. Dead people are floating around with Jesus, not dead. Scripture disagrees with you. Believe what you want, but scripture disagrees with you.

quote: He absorbed the full wrath of God. Wrath toward sin. Whoa! En garde! Full wrath of God???? Where do you get that? God is light; in Him is no darkness at all. You're saying He's a child abuser. quote: Christianity is evil is what I heard. Then that's what you're going to "hear" every time I post anything, right?

quote: Still, the message in the Advance Class is clear. If you don't speak in tongues daily, God won't talk to you. I didn't get that from the AC. God never talked to Martin Luther? If I'm driving on the highway and there's an accident or bad weather or anything which actually requires me to focus with my 5 senses mind, then I'm not going to worry about if I SITd enough that day. Might pray with the understanding. I just never processed twi stuff as commands from the Almighty like that. I was never in the corps. I've heard about face meltings like the one you described where the 6th corps guy nodded out during corps night. I'm sorry if you got scarred in that scenerio or any other. LCM used to say (and I think he got this one right) that you shouldn't let your kids go to bed for the night thinking you don't love them. You should be willing to spend as much time as it takes to make the situation right. So I could never picture God Himself getting all stern and saying, "OK today you SITd for one minute and fifteen seconds. THAT'S NOT ENOUGH!!! Just for that, I won't talk to you for 8 days!" (gavel pounding). That's not the God who so loved that He gave, is it? Sure hope not.

quote: Don't you think that fear of death is something that is common to all humankind? Heb. 2:15 - and deliver them (everybody) who, through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

quote: Christians do not minimize sin. Understanding what it means to be a sinner is all important to understanding the true message of the gospel. I'd rather minimize it than maximize it. Christ paid for ours. This doesn't justify sinning deliberately; there will be cosequences for that, if not in this world, then in that which is to come. But VP made a point of having his ministry be different from the oppressive sin consciousness that dominated religion during his childhood. He saw the evil that can come from that. The pharissees were like that, too. Being everybody's sin cop is an effective way to control other people. It's OK, even wise, to be your own sin cop, but don't try to be everybody else's. Today the media tries to do that with politically correct and other false standards.

Waysider: SIT felt good the first time I did it in twig. It felt good doing it during my first session 12. It feels good doing it today. It has never NOT felt good to me. I guess I have not been subject to someone trying to pressure me into doing it all the time 24/7, other than the annoying examples I stated in my last post. But I don't schedule time to do it every day; never have, other than lift lists. I used to believe that if I SITd silently to myself after reading each name(s) on the lift list that this was praying in the spirit. Not sure about that anymore, and prayer with the understanding has always been fine, too, but I don't really think I hurt anyone by praying for them like that. Trying to pressure me into SIT is like trying to pressure me into eating more grapefruit. The first thing I put into my mouth every day is usually a half grapefruit. (not all at once) If somebody tried to tell me to eat more of them, then I might consider switching to tart apples. Jonathan, maybe. Just to make them mad.

quote: What happens? Well, for starters, you initially feel guilty. Must be trippin' out or somethin'. What if Gawd tries to talk to me? I won't be able to hear Him. How will I be able to pray for stuff? (Gawd doesn't understand the more mundane languages, like English and such, ya know?) And what about that inner spirit that needs me to keep feeding it? Won't it start to suffer from malnutrition if I deprive it of spiritual mashed potatoes? I mean, I know it's supposed to be completely, completely, complete already but maybe it can still become more completer. And then, something interesting happens. You realize that speaking in tongues seems to have been acting as some sort of fuel on the fire of self delusion. You start to feel like you are waking up from a dream. Things take on a new perspective. And the whole world doesn't collapse around you with a thundering crash. But, of course, I'm probably just a devil spirit trying to trick you. Yeah, that's it. Can't take the chance. Just too risky. During my wow year I recall my wow brother asking one of the girls if she was SIT. She said none of your damn business. :) Two years later my twig cordo whom I worked with briefly would ask us that while we were on a ladder painting. He'd just say "lo shunta" in a cheerful voice. My wow sister was right; it is nobody else's business. Guilty? Tripping out? Can't hear God? Man, what cult were YOU in? I wasn't in any cult like that! Even when I was forced out of twi I never felt like God was going to abuse me. One doesn't have to project twi bullying tactics onto God. God doesn't do that stuff.

I think it's 'if my words did glow'. I don't want to hear David Burger's words, I want to hear waysider's. quote: [Nothing in Scripture says those who follow the law of sin die IMMEDIATELY or SOON. Nothing in my post did either.

Thanks. I just might do that. Do you know if he's still in twi? If he is he might not want some "contaminated" guy playing his music, I dunno. He showed me the chords to that song in 1980 at a family table; was pretty nice. If I can't get those words here, then I probably will do it.

quote: no, that's a miracle.... he got a sober thought.... lol I just KNEW somebody was going to have fun with that one. quote: So, then, what if there really is such a thing as speaking in tongues but the stuff VPW sold us is fake? Would that make you feel betrayed? So what if c-a-t really spells dog? Makes as much sense. quote: Remember in that vaunted pfal class where wierwille highlights the word "but".... remember? "But" sets in contrast that which precedes with that which follows....it doesn't co-exist with it. Johniam, it is surprising how you seem to esteem pfal, yet cannot follow what was taught. You can't have it both ways: esteem wierwille and disregard his teachings. Doesn't coexist? Yes, it does. James 3:8-10 - but the tongue can no man tame, it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison Therewith bless we God, even the Father, and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God. Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing... Rom 7:14,15 - For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. For that which I do, I allow not, for what I would, that I do not, but what I hate, that do I VP said of senses faith that it does everything except act on the word. The word 'but' truly sets in contrast the works of the flesh with the fruit of the spirit, yet both exist "under the same roof" in all of us. Rom 7:22-25 - For I delight in the law of God after the inward man, But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin, which is in my members. O wretched man that I am, who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind, I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin. Do you know how we serve the law of sin with our flesh? We die. If you serve something, then you are paid wages, right? The wages of sin is....death. As I said, this is as good as it gets in this life; the body of Christ. Imperfect people worshipping a perfect God. Difficult? Wretched? Yes, but in this life, it's as good as it gets.

quote: I was thinking more about that if things didn't happen in a certain way, it was often considered "off", or even "devilish" in TWI. Case in point: A person came to a twig one time who was African American. He liked to say "amen", and, "Uh huh", a lot during the teaching. He also said other things like, "Preach it! Preach it!" We thought the guy was possessed and discouraged him from doing this. I find out decades later this type of behavior is fairly common in many African American churches We got a black guy in the fellowship I go to. Great guy. Been around for at least a decade. He went to a fellowship for a different spinoff and he always ends his prayers with "in Jesus' name, amen". One of those guys called him a "Jesus boy", said he wasn't ready for the foundational class yet. Huh? IMO, God knows which "Jesus" he's talking about. Another thing. There's a difference between someone having a devil spirit and someone just repeating a chain of sentences that habitually formed in their mind years earlier. How many times do you suppose an individual was deemed "possessed" because he/she said something out of habit like that? I was raised in a non Christian home. I went to a church that was originally Baptist, but morphed into liberal/religious. Most of their ministers were from the U of Chicago Divinity School. It's called Fountain Street Church if you want to look it up. But during 8th grade we spent half the school year going to other churches around the city; Catholic, Jewish, Mormon, Reformed, and also True Light Baptist Church, an all black church. We went there in late April of 1968, less than one month after MLK was killed. We were not VIPs by any means; we were snot nosed 13 year old upper middle class white boys. They treated us like we were angels or something. They let us sit in the front several rows. They were nice to us. The service was LOUD. I sang the hymns the best I could, although their choir was so loud I couldn't hear myself sing. It wasn't quite as intense as the church scenes in the Blues Bros. movies, but almost. Now, I suppose it is possible that spirits could influence a scene like that, but that whole service felt really good. If I was going to join a church based on atmosphere, that one would get my vote. The Reformed church we went to reluctantly let us sit way up in the balcony.

the lyrics to the whole song 'Make up your mind'? It was written by David Hogshead, who was in the 6th corps band Living Waters and also the Victors (he was the blond guitarist). It was popular in the twi circles I was in, yet I can't think of any recording that has it. The chorus goes... Jesus Christ is the one who can turn you around set you on the right track put your feet on the ground it's all up to you now you're the one that must make up your mi..iii...iii...ind any takers? If it's on a long music thread, just tell me where to start fishing.

quote: I don't think the fact Wierwille taught S.I.T. is any indication of him being a "pioneer" as you say. You said yourself, the Pentacostalists had been speaking in tongues for years. Maybe it wasn't part of the mainstream (whatever that is), but it certainly wasn't new. It hasn't been "new" since the day of Pentecost. In the book of Acts SIT was the proof that someone was a Christian. The 5 examples in pfal document that. Today, and basically since before the end of the first century, SIT has been replaced by creeds and nonbiblical doctrines like the trinity. Pentecostals didn't make SIT easy, practical, OR harmless. Their people who SITd had to roll around on the floor, handle snakes, throw hymnals in the air, and other self demeaning stuff. Not so pfal grads. VPs ministry proved that anyone could SIT without having to act like an idiot. In the session called Living Victoriously in God's peace, VP said he got a phone call immediately before coming on stage that really teed him off. His solution? "I waited until I got a sober thought, then SITd like crazy. It still works, baby!" That is practical. quote: Wierwille actually did this important aspect of Christianity an injustice in that he endeavored to put restrictions on the movement of the Spirit. 1 Cor. 14:27 - if any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or, at the most by three, and that by course, and let one interpret. v.34 - Let your women keep silence in the churches... v.35 - if they will learn anything let them ask their husbands at home... v.37 - if any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord. v.40 - Let all things be done decently and in order. I guess VP wasn't the only one putting "restrictions on the movement of the spirit".

quote: Which category does vpw & co. fall in? ......Works of the flesh (Gal. 5:19-21) OR fruit of the spirit (Gal. 5:22,23). Paul spoke these truths as well, right? Those of us who are born again have both fruit of the spirit AND works of the flesh. We will get no rewards (inheritance) for works of the flesh (vain repetitions, church attendance, abstination from vice, community service, and all the things that some religious people do to show themselves godly), but for listening to God's still small voice and ministering grace to the hearers and being the kind of Christian that others want to be like and be around, that's part of the fruit of the spirit. We've all been that person. Even Jesus' own group of disciples had a guy who was in charge of the money who let it get to his head and made a very bad choice. What Christian group are you going to possibly join where something like that can't happen? Nobody's going to betray Jesus again, but every fellowship or church is going to have money to watch over, people to steward, spiritual curriculum to consider, activities to plan, and, oh, yeah, imperfection in the very Christians who oversee it all. The body of Christ is as good as it gets right now.

quote: When Paul said I would that ye all SIT was he really saying everyone could? Yes, he was. Hey, Eve, did God really say thou shalt not eat of every tree of the garden???