johniam

quote: I felt it further evidence that there were social classes within TWI. Normal dolts such as myself had to play by the rules but if one made a lot of money, exceptions were made for you. Richard Thomas says that he lived in the same house as Dr. Carolyn Rawlins the year before he went in residence. He says she was a "heavy hitter" ABS wise, so she could get what she wanted from VP with a phone call. He didn't really have anything bad to say about her, but every time she made a delivery she'd want to have fellowship afterward...even if it was 3AM. Nice.

Love the sinner; hate the sin. I first heard that saying from a trinitarian friend who is a Baptist. I thought it biblically logical at the time. We are commanded to love our enemies, love one another as Christ loved us, and pray for them that despitefully use us. Then at one of the last ROAs I attended, Don Wierwille used the phrase. He was talking about a situation in Minnesota in which some place's policy on tolerance of homos said that you can't just respond in the affirmative you had to really be tolerant of homos. I can't remember all the details, but his overview of the policy was that it's impossible to love the sinner and hate the sin. He wasn't being flattering. This was said at either the '93 or '94 ROA. Maybe someone else can remember that. It still makes sense to me. I know that's really relevant to most of you <_< .

I'll take that as "yes".

I remember at the beginning of the 1983 ROA he and Dorothea were walking down the paved path that goes from the gazebo to the big top. I was close enough to him to be concerned; it just looked like he was wandering in space when he walked past where I was. Then a friend of mine was at the Word in Business in, I think, Nashville less than 2 months before he died, and my friend concluded, "He's slipping". A month before that, he spoke at the dedication of the auditorium and to me he sounded fine. But if I recall, in Dec. of '84 he did a businessmen's pfal class in Colorado. It was a clipped form of pfal for people who didn't have time to sit through 34 hours of class. I don't recall it ever being referred to after that, so perhaps the BOT was humoring him by letting him do it; knew that the end was near. Was anybody here at that 'businessmen's' class? How was he then?

Apparently you all don't believe it is possible to love the sinner and hate the sin.

quote: I'm sorry for you that you're unable to read my full posts with comprehension, I understand English. As I said once before, I emphasize different things. The Jews had reasons for their desire to execute Jesus. They had facts, they had scripture, they had governing values, they had an agenda, all that stuff, but their conclusion was flawed. You demonstrate just as much selective reasoning, personal bias, reluctance to consider some ideas, and programming to an agenda as anybody else who's trying to make a point. I think you would get the nod if this were a formal debate, however, I believe that NOTHING supercedes the finished works of Jesus Christ. This includes salvation, not to be repented of, incorruptible seed, and a hope that fadeth not away. This is already a done deal. This is a door God opened that no man shutteth. God allowed the innocent blood of His son Jesus to be shed for you. Aren't you thankful for anything? This whole mess began when you started a thread as an overreaction to me saying VP was not an evil man. It's been talked to death. If you're so sure that your stand is legitimate, then why the non stop damage control? Why strain at a gnat and swallow at a camel? Why flee when no man pursueth? You may consider eyewitness testimony from individuals, but when you conclude that "old man Wierwille never taught safe boundaries, and VP was a bully, and he set a goal in 1942 to scam people and in 1970 he would finally get his well deserved virtual harem, and he was constantly drunk on Drambuie" (that stuff tastes like those old candy cigarettes, eww), you don't KNOW all that! It's pure speculation! It's obsessive. VPs ministry lives on. There are fellowships all over the country where people can hear the word taught just like the best of twi times. Last month 3 of our old timer's kids flew to the SF bay area for a seminar. The same people who did the seminar also do what amounts to LEAD and way homes. This weekend I'm going to attend a CG taught intermediate class. John Hendricks' CRF still has wows (lights) and corps (forget what they call that). People are fickle but God is still God. Are you really going to spend all the time you have left attacking a dead man?

quote: I Kings 1:1-4. (KJV) 1Now king David was old and stricken in years; and they covered him with clothes, but he gat no heat. 2Wherefore his servants said unto him, Let there be sought for my lord the king a young virgin: and let her stand before the king, and let her cherish him, and let her lie in thy bosom, that my lord the king may get heat. So what exactly did she do "lying in his bosom", blow on his neck? Know means pregnancy, not sex only. He had many lovers even if they weren't all wives. He had 19 kids by at least 10 different women. Bathsheba had 4 of them, including Solomon and Nathan, who is mentioned in Joseph's line (Luke 3). It's good to be the king. Your strategy works, for the most part. You figure that by micro analyzing everything I post, you will numb the mind of anyone who actually takes the time to read all the way through your long winded damage control. That's basically what theologians do to scripture, so by the time those seminary students get their degrees, their minds have been numbed to the point that they don't believe the bible is literally the word of God they're supposed to be subject to. It's just a sampler plate from a buffet to them. No actual submission. At least, that's the goal. Speculation? All the stuff VP is accused of and you're telling me speculation? Thanks for posting that lumberjack song. I used to watch that show, but I was usually stoned so I can't remember much. King Solomon actually drafted 80,000 lumberjacks. It took him 13 years to build his temple and there was no war for him to worry about, so he sent those people up into Lebanon to cut down trees, float them down the Mediterranean sea to Joppa, then transport them to Jerusalem via horses and wagons. They were lumberjacks and they were OK. Don't know about the high heels, etc. Interesting to me that Solomon's rotation for the workers parallels the Grateful Dead's touring schedule during their heyday. Two months at work; one month home with the family. The Dead toured like that whether they had an album to promote or not. That allowed time for them to do other music projects and non music activities. That's how they lasted so long without burning out. Solomon's lumberjacks worked for two months and stayed home for one month. I just find that interesting.

This guy was my twig leader for 3-4 years before that. When rumors started going around at the time POP came out, he had what I would call cautious skepticism. Didn't want to overreact to anything, but as time went on he became more visibly concerned. It was the same meeting where Don W said that when CG was reading POP Don wanted to interrupt and say "NO,NO!" but he didn't and he (DW) then thought that if he HAD interrupted then there wouldn't be a twi anymore. I personally heard a tape of DW saying that. Us people on the field were allowed to hear a presentation called "Leadership tapes" later, maybe 1992. Most of it was LCM dissing CG, but there was also the tape of DW.

quote: It counted for a lot. But her only protest is "I'm pregnant." We have nothing to indicate she's significantly troubled by having a young, good-looking, popular, rich king want to have sex with her OR to make her a Queen. He wasn't young; he was around 50. Just like VP. Even at the end of his life he had them find Abishag to "keep him warm". quote: Anything about Bathsheba being "forced" into all this is all speaking where God was silent. vpw himself said "Where the Word of God remains silent, he who speaks is a fool." David requested her presence. She didn't. She really had a choice? BTW where does "God" speak and not be silent about all the things VP is accused of? Nice bit of selective reasoning on your part; especially when considering how you think it was wrong for me to mention that Jim Doop may have been involved in the same things. We'll see who's really being "fooled".

I remember during Living Victoriously (1982) one night a car with known troublemakers in it followed a believer's car outside HQ. There was an altercation. The troublemaker's car got dinged pretty bad. The troublemakers called the police and gave them Howard Allen's license # as the one who did it. So at 3:30AM the police came and HA had to try to start his car. He told police he hadn't driven it in 2 days, so when it didn't turn over immediately the police knew the known troublemakers were lying. As for the bodyguards, a friend of mine who used to post here was in the 11th corps. He stayed until corps week in '89 or '90, can't remember which. He was listening to Don Wierwille talk and that did it for him. His real desire was to walk up to the front of the stage in the big top and just throw his corps nametag on the stage, but it occured to him that this might be hazardous to his health, so he and his wife just walked out of there.

quote: The sad part is that there's lots of UNBELIEVERS who have no difficulty understanding keeping themselves from sinful behavior on the grounds that it's harmful to themselves. They're called "Straight Edge." https://secure.wikim...i/Straight_edge "In its simplest form, straight edge is a philosophy of staying clean and sober: meaning refraining from using alcohol, tobacco, and recreational drugs. For some, this extends to not engaging in promiscuous sex, following a vegetarian or vegan diet, not using caffeine or prescription drugs." "Originally, straight edge was most closely associated with hardcore punk which developed in the late 1970s and early 1980s" Interesting-while vpw was trying to get the hippie Jesus People to sin, there were punk rockers at the same time abstaining from alcohol, tobacco, drugs, and promiscuous sex. And they aren't born again! Drag. quote: God was not a co conspirator in VP's lifestyle. God is not a co conspirator in sin. Where do you get this garbage? For someone who accuses Billy Graham of idolatry...you sure don't have a problem bringing God down to a human level yourself. The difference is....Billy G believes Jesus was fully God and fully man...sinless. Not conspiring in sin. I believe Jesus IS fully man and not God and sinless. Did God cover for David? 1 Sam 11:26,27 - and when the wife of Uriah heard that Uriah her husband was dead, she mourned for her husband. And when the mourning was past, David sent and fetched her to his house, and she became his wife, and bare him a son. But the thing that David had done displeased the Lord. Question 1. How much meaningful consent did Bathsheba have in this? Question 2. Did it matter that she didn't literally belong to the King? 1 Sam 12:13 - And David said unto Nathan, I have sinned against the Lord. And Nathan said unto David, the Lord also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die. Does this make God a coconspirator? 1 Kings 15:5 - Because David did that which was right in the eyes of the Lord, and turned not aside from anything that He commanded him all the days of his life, save only in the matter of Uriah the Hittite. Notice it says the matter of Uriah the Hittite, not Bathsheba. Didn't her life count for anything? Was it God's will for her to be forced to have sex with David? Was it God's will for her to later be forced to become David's wife? David made all that happen to HER, yet he turned not aside...etc. As I said, the big gray area is that God is not obligated to reveal to us exactly how he metes out justice for every jot and tittle of anyone's life. I didn't say VP turned not aside...etc. I DID say he should have some consequencees. But we now live in the administration of grace. VP didn't have to pray "take not thy holy spirit from me" like David did. You all may continue to misrepresent what I said and meant all you wish. I maintain that we all have eternal life, incorruptible seed, access to God, peace in our hearts (not as the world giveth), and an Advocate (comforter); Jesus Christ the righteous. None of your arguments has negated any of this.

Did it change the world? Did Jesus change the world? The world that's been trying like hell to sweep him under the rug for 2000 plus years. Yes, I think he did change the world, yet some ignore this. They have science and other forms of education and world wisdom as their belief system. I bet it rankles them to realize that they have to kiss Jesus' a$$ every time they write a check. What do I mean? A check has to have a date on it. What does the date 2011 refer back to TODAY? Did twi/pfal change the world? My belief system says yes, but I'm only one person. Did it change me? Oh, baby. Before twi I was hurting. Most of it was my own fault. I was using drugs, had no respect for authority, and was unable to succeed at schools, jobs, or relationships. We can all assign blame for things that happened in our past, but if we as individuals don't make any effort to get back on our feet, then it won't happen by itself. My most critical years in twi began with my wow year. I was held accountable for getting and keeping a job and for making myself presentable to speak the word to a general mix of people. The 8 year period beginning with the wow year really WAS like being in a greenhouse. It was as though I pushed the pause button on my whole life for that time. I needed that. It was a 'climate controlled' environment where I got doctrine, reproof, correction, and most importantly love. Love from God and from people. Then after 8 years I moved back to my home city and gradually I focussed more on my personal life and less on my twi identity. That's when doors opened to me for jobs, marriage, etc. I didn't expect too much from twi and they didn't expect too much from me. That changed in 1994 and after this became clear, I left. quote: Another thing I would like to mention is that things for me didn't get really bad until I entered The Way Corps. That's when the indoctrination really began. Up until that time I was a faithful attender, but I still had a life. I hear that changed as well after my departure. I have very few good memories of being involved with the WC. I can't think of one right now. I made some good friends, but that's about it. I have to admit that when I first went to twig those people were like family; I could relax. Didn't have to worry about saying the wrong thing. But when I went to the orientation meeting for my first pfal class, there was a noticeably different vibe when the corps guy walks up, introduces himself, and shakes my hand. No more casual family vibe; now I had to be totally serious. This never stopped. I learned the system. I got to know many way corps, but I knew not to try to discuss certain subjects with them. To a degree, I think this parallels other situations, like perhaps the difference between being around your closest coworkers and then the administrators walk into the room to make a presentation. That can be awkward. quote: In short, the mainline church of the 60's and 70's did not relate to the young people of that time. Amen. My paternal grandmother was a strict Southern Baptist. Wouldn't let you bring a deck of cards in her house. Would pour alcohol down the sink if she caught you with it. Could be very nice and sweet, too. Her son, my dad, rejected her religion; was more fascinated by science. Never went to church as an adult. His wife, my mom, had her fill of religious behavior as a child. Hated it. She was mentored into a liberal church in her 40s. That's how she tried to raise me. I stopped going to church after 9th grade. Later got into twi. Never really drank the liberal koolaid. My daughter doesn't go to fellowship much anymore. When she turned 18 I told her that if she rejected the word we'd taught her she would be continuing a family tradition. That she may very well choose a path I may be disappointed with, but that ultimately it was her decision. She went to fellowship yesterday and to a weekend thing a month ago, but we don't put any pressure on her. But, yeah. Youth seem to at least consider alternative belief systems than their parents'.

quote: Umm, method number 3: maybe they should TALK TO EACH OTHER? This is covered by "show me what I can do to help her (him)". You wouldn't want to say the wrong thing, would you? I suppose that too much verbal communication is better than not enough, however.

Quote That he really thought that sex outside of marriage could be "liberating" as a regular practice. maybe the big question should be: do you AGREE with that doctrine? or that its OK under the right circumstances.. or do you abhor it? No, I do not agree with that doctrine. I believe that there is no better witness for the Lordship of Jesus Christ and his relationship with the church than a Christian marriage. Feminists will never understand that concept. All they will ever see is that the Christian husband plays the role of Jesus and the Christian wife is to be in subjection to her husband and that just CAN'T be right. That's the whole key. Ultimately, the man is not a superior gender to the woman; they're both persons and God is no respecter of persons. In a Christian marriage, God says He will honor the man's commitment to be to his wife as Christ and He will honor the woman's commitment to be to her husband as the church. Perfect? LOL. If I'm the woman, I'm thinking, "Wait a minute. My husband isn't really Jesus. Why should I treat him as though he is? How can this work?" And if I'm the man, I'm thinking, "Wait a minute. I'm not really Jesus. She knows that. How can this work?" Yet God says He will bless and keep such a commitment. But..... As for the second part of your question, your phrasing..."the right circumstances". Now that covers a LOT of ground. Let's explore that. As I said, men are not superior by creation to women. Some men think they are, without any prompting from twi. They already got prompting from family, peers, coworkers, church, etc. Women can get the same prompting. Let's say hypothetically, that a man is being compelled to say the words "I'm sorry" to his wife. She's overreacting to something and she's being emotional and the man knows that if she doesn't hear him convincingly say the words "I'm sorry" then he's going to be in the dog house indefinitely. So he says those words even though he doesn't feel like it. IMO this scenerio DOES play out OFTEN. One sided? You're right. So let's explore the other side. Let's say, hypothetically, that a woman doesn't feel like having sex with her husband on any given day or night. She isn't angry with him. She doesn't have a problem with his "technique". She isn't having her period or any other medical situation, no, she just doesn't FEEL like it; that's really all there is to it. But she senses that hubby has been a bit fragile lately and she knows that if she says no that he will REALLY let it bother him, so she does it, even though she doesn't feel like it. Couples have to work through stuff like this all the time. It's an extension of "work out your own salvation". The "way of a man with a maid" goes a lot further than the sex act. If you're in that situation, you can deal with it one of two ways: if you're the man, you can curse your wife and say 'why does she keep doing this to me? God this is a pain in the butt." OR you can say to yourself 'whoa, she's hurting somewhere. God, I pray that you help her with whatever it is and show me what I can do to help her, In Christ's name amen.' Same for the woman. Ideally, the marriage will survive, but if one spouse allows him/her self to get into the habit of thinking negatively as a reflex and this goes on for years and years, then functionally, that marriage is flawed. ANY couple can put on a content face in front of others, but inside they're hurting. Some couples don't survive this. So, Ham? What if your marriage was like this? Doesn't matter if you personally are the good or negative spouse. Your marriage has been dysfunctional like that for years, and you meet a woman you're attracted to and your first impulse is to be discreet, but the more time you spend together, the more it becomes possible that you will have sex with her. And it happens. Legally, you're still married and you just committed adultery, but spiritually, your marriage hasn't functioned as Christ with the church for years. Would that make you really evil? Only you can rightly divide that situation. Some marriages should have ended years before (they DID end in the minds of the couple), and one of the two people meeting someone new is what finally gets them to divorce. This is the only kind of "circumstances" that comes to my mind, but as for VP????? No. If he was a regular adulterer. If he used his wife as a cook/maid/occasional concubine and treated all other women as his virtual harem, then he should have some consequences. I'M just saying that he could STILL do the things that a church leader can do. He delegated a lot of responsibility to others. God covered for him as long as He did. People got hurt, but people got blessed, too. Not just me. The big gray area here is that God is not obligated to reveal to us mortals exactly how he metes out justice for every jot and tittle of anybody's life...in this world...in that which is to come. Many things will remain hidden. Gal3:21...for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. If there's no law that gives life, then there's no law that takes it away. VP was definitely born again. His ministry got a lot of other people born again, too.

That's VPs grandson, right? JPs son? I remember seeing him at a ROA. He couldn't have been more than 5 years old. Wow.

QUOTE: we are assuming a lot here.. people who have a "ministry?" I've met John. I have the highest regard for him.. but is he willing to accept your description? Or insinuation that he has a God-given ordained MINISTRY? how is "research" a "ministry"? Research is a form of service. Driving 700 miles for a weekend seminar is definitely an act of service. In Living Victoriously in service, VP explained that his service to us that night was to teach. That night he taught on figures of speech which cause change. He also read a letter sent to him by a way corps guy whose job was to clean the porta potties late at night. The guy said that despite the low profile image his job had and the difficulty of doing the job with limited lighting, that it was still what was required of him and he should put as much heart into that as into any other job. Maybe John's service is more along the line of helps and governments, but I bet VP didn't spend as much time with the honey wagon people as he did with John and his peers.

While we're talking about people with ministries, I learned last night that Researchgeek is in town for a weekend seminar. It has been said, I believe on this thread (some of the discussions on these threads are running together for me; not sure which thread is which), that the 5 gift ministries got too much press in twi, and that helps and governments were underrated. Research is certainly a good thing, whatever category it's in. I was asked to play music at the weekend, but I got too much going on. I am acquainted with the guy whose house it's going to be at, but I don't even know what the topic of the weekend is. Sure wouldn't mind being at a presentation of Geek's, though.

quote: Vp avoided prison for his deeds, but, no matter how they appear to overcome, they're in a mental prison for the rest of their life. Speak for yourself. So God refuses to heal? Not mine. This is another example of the form of world wisdom we call psychology.

quote: Whether any of these other guys were guilty of similar actions is a moot point because it's mr. wierwille's deceptive practices that are on the examination table at the moment.. Only because you want to put them there 24/7. If Twinky had titled this thread 'a prophet (VP) is a difficult man to live with', then you might be correct, but without specifically mentioning him in the title, she left open the option of more creatively exploring the ethics of ANYONE'S being worthy of the title, 'prophet'. IMO it is blatantly hypocritical of you to waste no opportunity to put VP on trial and then shun the idea of putting anyone else on trial. Many things to consider: I went to my first twig fellowship in 1976 and took pfal in early 1977, yet I didn't hear of Jim Doop until I went wow and began to rub shoulders with people from outside my home area. Never heard anything bad or controvertial about him; just that he had a role in twi history. The people I fellowship with these days don't like GSC. There is a limit to what I can discuss with them. The man who told me about JD has been around a long time. I've heard him tell stuff like that about a lot of topics. His take on JD seemed to indicate that JD was a borderline nut case whom VP was actually patient with. Yet, IMO he had a genuine ministry of God. Only God can give ministries like that, call them gift ministries or whatever, and the gifts and calling of God are without repentance, so no man can literally "steal" a God given ministry like that. Why did JD spend ANY more time with VP if VP was so obviously self serving? VPs first love was scripture, the right dividing of God's word. The other stuff fell in his lap. Somewhere along the line he decided that it was OK with God for him to allow 'liberties' in his life that led him astray. That he really thought that sex outside of marriage could be "liberating" as a regular practice. IS IT really impossible that any man could practice error while running a Christian ministry? Jim Doop saw SOMETHING in VP that piqued his interest. JD already had his God given ministry. IS IT really impossible that JD, for a time, bought into VPs take on sexual liberties? That's why moral superiority is a myth. We're all human. We all get tempted. We all screw things up. Moral superiority is merely a spiritual football. So you say it's just not possible that a Christian ministry can have skeletons in its closet like that? Look at all the denominations. They are part of the body of Christ, yet they believe Jesus is God, which is idolatry, and which is REQUIRED for membership in the National Council of Churches! This is not good, yet they are part of the body of Christ. People go to those churches and get saved, delivered from bondage, feel like they belong in the body of Christ, all that good stuff. It happens there, too. None of us is qualified to be a moral policeman or judge. We can say this is wrong, that is wrong, and slice it up as finely as we can, but to build this gigantic, bigger than life, superstructure, where VP is the epitome of evil? That's God's job. I'm not building a statue to VP. YOU'RE building a statue to moral superiority.

LOL. I DID hear that from someone who was in the 5th WC. Someone who was around in the early 70s. Selective reasoning? Ya think?

quote (from the prophet is a difficult man to live with thread): While I believe that VP did bad things, I don't buy the whole hype. There is an infinity of things he's been accused of and you and others seem to blindly accept all of it as a truth package. I do not. Some (perhaps most) of that stuff is either fabricated or exaggerated. Compare with... quote: So, the guy who kidnaps children to molest and murder them is morally on par with the one who dedicates his life to feeding hungry children and delights in good? Now THIS is exactly what I'm talking about. Kidnaps children??? Molests???? Murder???? That's pure fabrication. That's slander. That's liable. Are you trying to bait the Wierwille family or TWI into suing you so you can air your issues in court? Is that what this is all about? Did the Packers win the superbowl because they were "morally superior" to the Steelers? Do judges rule on cases because of how "morally superior" the attorneys are? There's a word for people who think things SHOULD turn out a certain way because of moral superiority. Loser. Talk about doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result! White supremists thought they were morally superior when they abused black people in the south. Same for supporters of Apartheid. Same for Nazis. Same for those who actually murdered the Christ. Don't you get it? God is the only moral judge. I did not say that there is no good or evil, I just said that you all aren't the judges of such. Not man versus man you're not. You have your opinions. You have criminal and civil law. You have this forum, but you do not have the copyright on what is moral. Isn't that what got us in the soup in twi? Thinking that we had the copyright on truth? (((((((Rascal))))))) Good to hear your voice! How's the husband and kids? How's the animals? I know your secret fantasy is to hogtie me and brand an 'R' on my butt. Maybe God will let you do that after the return, huh? Hmm. Maybe I better not give you any ideas. Excathedra: I think every time you post you demonstrate that twi did not destroy you, rather, you overcame THEM! Some rewards are for what we overcome (Rev.2:26). And we are more than overcomers, right? Kit says you're getting a throne. I'm sure it'll be a good one!

Interesting. I heard he was quite the womanizer himself.

quote: There's a difference, John. Most of what you are seeing other posters bring to this discussion, whether right or wrong, has been filtered through a critical thinking process using logic and reason. Most of what I have seen in your posts, in contrast, has been filtered through the "Yo Mamma" thought process. "Yo mamma" thought process? I notice you spell mamma with 3 m's but Wordwolf with only 2. Did you get that from different texts or is that like Noah's son being rendered either Sem or Shem? Just kidding. You're saying that my posts are all an emotional reaction, right? I could say the same of you all, but really all human communication is a mix of reason and emotion. You say that your arguments are "filtered through a critical thinking process using logic and reason", but it's still all based on credibility. You assign credibility to some people; I assign it to others. You assign relevance to some facts/opinions, I, to others. Not much common ground, at least not on this topic, but you're not doing anything different than I am. You just THINK you're morally superior. Moral superiority is a myth.

quote: Very well, then. Safe "haven" from what? From trouble, distresses, and the storm, just like it says in the verses I quoted. That's what twi was for me. You can read the post, but you can't see the word of God.

quote: I don't know if Mr. Natural was a prophet. He definitely had a gift ministry, though....bestowed upon him by one Mr. R. Crumb. On second thought, he must have been an apostle----bringing new light to a whole generation of freaks and heads. Yeah, sure, it was really old light but....... Don't forget the fabulous furry freak brothers; they were a tight twig.