johniam

quote: Johnia, it's not CFFM's money. According to th IRS, yes it IS CFFMs money. Jesus, Paul, and Peter never had to deal with the IRS. The closest example I can think of in scripture is when the Romans wanted tribute money at Capernaum (Matt.17:24-27) According to Bishop Pillai, the fish had a piece of money in its mouth that was sufficient. The manna was no good because if they ate it they'd get sick because of the worms. The money was still legal tender therefore it was still good. That analogy is just another morally superior platitude with no basis in fact or reality. *I* did not veer this thread off course. Look at my first post. Look at some of the responses to it. There's your problem.

quote: What exactly does "reconciling men unto God to the church" mean? In that phrase there is somewhat of a confusion of destination there. OK lets you and me go back to the 5th grade; diagramming sentences. This involves naming the part of speech of every word in the sentence. I found this training to be an invaluable aid when retemorizing. The entire sentence is - God has delegated the responsibility of reconciling men unto God to the church. God is a noun, and the subject of the sentence. 'Has' is an auxilliary verb. 'Delegated' is a verb, paired with has, being the predicate of the sentence. 'The' is a definite article. 'Responsibility' is a noun and the object of the sentence. The remaining words in the sentence are two prepositional phrases, one of which modifies the word responsibility, and the other of which modifies the word delegated. Perhaps it would have been clearer if I'd rendered the sentence - God has delegated to the church the responsibility of reconciling men unto God. Sorry about that.

quote: The devil wants the word stopped so he created this narrative. Easy rationalization, then people who are trying to get the truth out are agents of the devil. Trying to get the truth out????? So you're entitled to slander people non stop because you're "trying to get the truth out"???? Then why doesn't scripture agree with you? In scripture why don't we see laundry lists like this when God's people are abused? For example, Joseph being lied about by Potiphar's wife, one of the first sexual predators identified in scripture, who tried to seduce Joseph and, when spurned, falsely accused him of trying to rape her, and subsequently causing him to spend 10 plus years in prison. No laundry list about her life. No mention of how she may have done this serially with every other household steward Potiphar hired. Nothing like that; just that God eventually made the situation right. Another who did evil to God's people was king Ahaz, Hezekiah's predecessor, who screwed up so bad that when Hezekiah took over as king he had to literally break open the door to the house of the Lord so the priests could follow the law. As with most kings of Israel and Judah, Ahaz was noted for whether or not he had prepared his heart to seek the Lord, and some of his screw ups were mentioned, but after he wasn't king anymore, nothing. Just, again, that through Hezekiah's meekness, God could make a lot of things right. God is a God of deliverance. You mentioned earlier that because of VP you will never be interested in belonging to a church or to a ministry again. I guess if you've given up on God what else is there to do but vent?

quote: I can't deny some of the nutty anti-social behavior and tendencies, the trendiness of themes and rhetoric and posturing but nothing where anyone would or went on the attack. It just never happened. I don't know anyone that I knew then or now who would have done such a thing. You can't just start arresting people for what they "might" do. Even the policy of having to register as a sex offender has hurt people disproportionately. Soliciting a prostitute requires those convicted to register as a sex offender, but everybody just assumes that all sex offenders are pedophiles. Nobody in twi ever blew up an abortion clinic.

quote: What I wanted to know was whether CFFM uses the money it receives to help the community around it, It's none of your business how anyone spends THEIR OWN money. quote: Rev. Billy Graham taught the gospel of Jesus Christ to MILLIONS. You don't think he charged money for this? Like I said, if VP is the guy on the street corner, you say he has no impact. I recall channel surfing once during the 80s. Donahue, the consumate liberal Christianity bigot, was grilling Orel Roberts because he (OR) charged money at his hospital. Orel says "it's kinda hard to pay electric bills without money". Then Donahue holds the mike up to some guy who says "yeah, you make a lot of money in the faith business, don't you"? The devil, through media like Donahue, wants everybody to believe that Christians are second class citizens who don't deserve the "privileges" of being able to spend their own money the way they want to. Again, charging money doesn't violate anyone's free will.

quote: Once you marketing yourself, it stops being about God and starts being about you. God gave us his word freely, freely it should also be given. It IS about you...and me. God has delegated the responsibility of reconciling men unto God to the church. Charging money doesn't violate anyone's free will. quote: So your telling me the minister whose giving people the bread of life on the street corner is presenting a poorer quality verson of the bible than someone, say, charging $100 for a class? The quality of the word of God is the same; how it is presented is a non issue. VP charged money and got over 100,000 people worldwide to hear the gospel of Jesus Christ. The guy on the street corner? Not so much. You don't think that counts for something as far as God is concerned? Since the 1800s mass production, sales, and marketing have been a way of civilized life. Plus, there's a devil who is the god of this world who doesn't want the word of God promoted, whether it's in the 1st century or the 21st. So of course the devil will always have false moral arguments against the spreading of the gospel. You speak with forked tongue: if VP was the guy on the street corner, you would say he doesn't have any impact, but if VP sells, markets, and mass produces the word of God, now you say he's charging for something that should be freely given. Praise God, not VP, but blame VP, not the devil. The double standards never seem to end.

I have experience with CFFM. One book on cults called 'Youth, brainwashing, and the extremist cults' quotes a minister saying that cults are the unpaid bills of the church. This means that cults (spinoffs, offshoots, etc.) wouldn't exist if the church was taking care of people properly. That logic even applies to all Protestant denominations. They all seem to start out from a person who gets genuine revelation from God which helps those in need. Then when the money starts to roll in, things happen which the originator of the movement can't possibly control. After having left TWI in 1994, I got a call in early 1997 saying that John Shroyer would be doing a fellowship at a home in Holland, MI, some 30 miles away from where I lived at the time, and that Kevin and Sarah Guigou would also be there. So I went to it. There were maybe 10-15 people in attendance, so JS could talk freely and openly. In TWI he had most recently been a region leader in Florida. He had been loyal to LCM despite some red flags. Then what did it for him was the events GSC has documented in the 'Driven to suicide' article (LCM told a woman to leave her husband and the man ended up killing himself)plus LCM told the way corps that he "saved this woman from contamination". JS said he raised his voice telling LCM what he thought of all this. Must've bothered LCM somewhat because in 1995 LCM said that JS was "solid as a rock" on a SNS tape. Then JS summed up the interim: 1)said God told him audibly to start a ministry while he was driving on a FLA highway. 2)became more and more appalled driving all over the country and hearing story after story of the LCM regime's abuse of people. 3)was in Holland that day in continuation of going where people were and seeing exactly what peoples' needs were. It was a good fellowship overall. The following year they got the property in Tipp City. JS said the IRS was way more reasonable to deal with than he had been led to believe. By all accounts God was working with CFFM. I have no reason to believe this has not continued. I wish them the best. quote: IMO the main problem we have today with Christianity isn't the concepts, the teachings, the fellowships. It's what enters in when people try to make a profession out of it. 501-c regulates the flow of money. Why do you need a flow of money? One person can give a gift to another person without that. You can live Christian lives in your home, among families, in a community. When $$$ comes in, that's when you start to see motives and behavior change. You start to see man building up endless empires unto himself, organizations to "serve". And when you bring God into the mixture of all that it just is really problematic. Christians spend money like everybody else. Why the discrimination? You can live rock and roll lives in you home, families, communities, too, but money has come in there as well. If you want to see a top level touring band, you need money. I paid $99.00 per ticket so me and my wife could see the Eagles at Busch stadium last June. Super show. Really good. But there were many fingers in the pie. Busch stadium workers, promoters, parking, concessions, security, public transportation, the band members, and much much more. That's part of the price paid for everything being so global. Again, why the discrimination? Why is it OK for rock and roll people and other entertainers to make a buck, but not Christian ministries? There is no scripture forbidding Christians to market themselves. Men and women with ministries may have to avoid certain situations, but there is a business side to any religion nowadays. Again, why shouldn't Christians be able to capitalize on that? quote: Like you stated, chockfull......with more growth, cffm starts carving out zones. Does the new terminology make their structure and intentions different than twi? Hardly. The pattern repetes itself and the arrogance/elitism is difficult to suppress. What if all distant areas became "satellite outreach hubs" and KEPT 80% of their offerings to strengthen activity/outreach in THEIR area? Sure, there is all the 501c technicalities and all.....but if there were dynamic individuals with ministries out there, wouldn't that be more fitting to the One Body concept? Does one's right elbow really need to be like-minded with his left ear.....or function more directly with his right arm? If cffm moves down the path of "cloning believers"......then its twi all over again. Just for the record, in the St. Lousi bible fellowship, which is associated with Chris Geer's ministry, 85% of ABS stays here! In 2006, when storms knocked out some people's power for 8 days in July, when it was 100 degrees every day, ABS money was used to help with motel bills for those affected. Cloning believers? Oh, the Catholic church doesn't do that? Uniforms at school? Buildings with domes and crosses on them? I guess a lot of us rock and roll fans were "cloned" when we had long hair, well, when we had HAIR!

quote: And I'd have to assume they'd have quickly realized from their observation that the average Wayfer would prefer to talk your ear off about the bible, as opposed to shoot it off. If they were at LEAD HQ they may have thought there was a secret place on the property where they stashed the guns, but, as you said, eventually realized "these people are just Jesus freaks; they're harmless". How'd you like to be the agent who drew that assignment? lol

Just this past year there was something sold at tobacco stores and some convenience stores called K2. It was supposedly developed by a guy from Clemson U and you could buy 3 grams for $30.00. What's that. 2 joints worth? I thought about getting some but it became illegal in MO by late August. Heard from someone that 2 tokes would keep you high for 8 hours. I never had real marijuana that lasted THAT long! I also heard that some people experienced respiratory damage from that stuff. I haven't smoked pot since 1978 and I don't miss it, but now that these wanna be products are out I bet real marijuana will be mixed with this to water down the quality. After K2 became illegal there were already other pseudo pot products not illegal yet. What a mess for cops to sort out.

quote: So yeah, I'd like to know what kind of documentation there was or is or could be or might be that would substantiate that claim. Mind you I'm not a rank unbeliever, just a 1/2 stank inquirer. I would like to know who started this claim if anyone does know or where they first heard it - johniam, you sound like you heard it somewhere - mind sharing where? Don't wanna name names, but yeah, I heard it from people I respect. Most of what I heard was from people back in the late 70s including one WC Branch leader (don't laugh too loud), that we were followed and watched occasionally. The part about LEAD HQ was recent, that they even knew where FBI agents actually hid to watch us. If they were looking for guns, then that would explain why no arrests were made, but we all KNOW that twi was on 60 minutes and we got all sorts of bad lying publicity in the media, ESPECIALLY after Jonestown. Why is it a hard saying that the lying publicity was given the benefit of the doubt by some in authority? BTW that aforementioned WC Branch leader? He married a woman who was targetted by Ted Patrick himself. Patrick was seen on her street late in the 78/79 ministry year. I believe that was also the time period that Monte Pelto was kidnapped. FBI sure didn't do anything to stop THAT kind of activity. Hmm.

quote: Based on "principles" that allowed for any flight of fancy to become his latest revelation from god he developed a history of activity that would rival a bee's flight pattern for twists and turns. What made sense to him was what he made make sense to himself that week. One benign example that comes to mind is relative to today's date. In the late 80s or early 90s, not sure, March 4th of that year fell on a Sunday. LCM began the teaching by saying that as a child he had a subscription to Boy's Life magazine and that in its joke section one time one of the jokes was...what calendar date is also a command? Answer: march forth. So he titled that night's teaching 'March forth'. This reminds me of Zap comix: the comic that plugs you in! Shows a picture of a guy with an outlet on the top of his head and a plug coming out of the sky entering that outlet and his whole face shining. R. Crumb's work, I believe. March forth is a dime a dozen example of "TWI: the Christianity that plugs you in"! I suppose there are many ways one could spin a teaching title out of thin air and repeat the same old same old...stay committed, keep your mind tattooed to the word, etc. But VP would NEVER have resorted to that. Drambuie or not, he took some things about teaching protocol very seriously.

quote: That's right, you believe when the epistle Titus is speaking of evil doers Paul is speaking of Christians. Yes! Look at Titus chapter 1. Verse 4 doesn't say "law, judgement, and confusion", it says grace, mercy, and peace. In the verses I quoted, the unruly and vain talkers refer to the gainsayers of verse 9. Titus was to "ordain elders in every city" per verse 5. After listing the qualifications of a worthy bishop, verse 9 says holding fast the faithful word...sound doctrine...to exhort and convince the gainsayers. Why would a minister of God try to exhort and convince "evildoers" who don't have to be forgiven? quote: How do we know about the unforgivable sin....it is through the actions and hearts of the Pharisees. I am genuinely confused by why someone would think Jesus forgave them. Not ALL Pharisees. quote: The Apostle Paul spoke more about the lives of false teachers, their immorality, and their wickedness than he did about their doctrines.This is what really exposes them for who they are! They lead people away from Jesus Christ and salvation and their behavior is a reflection of this truth Simon Magas of Acts 8 was a false teacher, and he BELIEVED (verse 13)! quote: Wasn't it you who said Jesus forgave the Pharisees from the cross...was that before or after he accused them of the unforgivable sin? Not ALL Pharisees. quote: Oh yes, and that I live in a religious dream because I say the scriptures define morality for us. I think you live in a religious dream world because you think it's possible to live in a perfect world and you expect perfection of people in the bible and of people today! quote: And out of genuine confusion I have to ask..... how is forgiving someone for yourself...so you can move on, even if they don't want it or are not sorry or even think they wronged us, how is that loving, and really, how is that even forgiveness? That just makes it all about you. Matt. 22:39 - and the second is like unto it, thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. Loving yourself IS all about you. Peter forgave himself for denying Jesus 6 times; Judas didn't forgive himself for betraying Jesus. If you can't forgive others......

quote: I love it when you attack me personally....I must be doing something right. quote: I could go on.. So could I. But why bother. We disagree on so many levels. We are NOT going to connect. That's why I don't try to deconstruct everything you say that I disagree with. I didn't even quote LCM verbatim, but that was an eye opener. I spent several months directly dealing with twi's attempt to break apart my family in the name of "purifying the household" per LCM. The last twi guy I talked to was the limb leader of MI who told me I was too dangerous for him to "turn loose on the HOUSEHOLD"! Then 5 years later he himself leaves twi saying he'd been following a lunatic for 6 years. Perhaps it was trigger happy of me to compare you with LCM. You seem to have a life AND a support system which you enjoy. I have no problem with that.

Hmm. Is it a coincidence that at the bottom of this page it says FBI school, campus or online. I saw a drug bust in progress in San Francisco in 1972. I was walking to this place on Market Street and there were 3 or 4 guys standing up in handcuffs next to this unmarked car. There was an FBI guy in charge. Small crowd had gathered. I had long hair at the time. So a voice asks me do you know if they were arrested for sales? Like I'm supposed to know this? I was 18. I said I don't know. That was my closest brush with the FBI.

This whole post reminds me of the random article I read yesterday. When you click forums there are a few random articles you can read if you want. Yesterday's included a staff meeting in 1996. LCM went on and on about how the devil spirit realm was trying to take over the ministry by people refusing to change their personal habits and becoming contaminated. And how people will become indignant when reproved and say I'm righteous who are you to tell me this or that. This was LCMs rationalization for the debt purge, the homo purge, the planning your day to 15 minute increments, reporting back...all the control measures because we gotta keep the household clean for Jesus, y'know. The part of LCMs sermon that really stood out was when he said he hated hearing celebrity athletes on TV say "don't give up on your dream". Who cares about your dream? What's GOD'S dream? THAT'S what we shouldn't give up on! So we're all just robots for God, huh? That's where this witch hunt mentality leads. No thanks.

When one is injured physically, healing doesn't occur instantaneously. Our bodies have to process the injury so that the healing replaces that which was lost. About a year ago I was doing a window cleaning job which required the use of a 6" wide razor blade. I was holding the razor, a squeegee, and a strip washer in the same hand at one point. I ended up cutting my left index finger between the 1st and 2nd sections of the finger. Ouch. It took me 2 hours just to stop the bleeding. I could continue working, but for more than a week I had to constantly change bandages, apply triple antibiotic ointment, etc. To this day I feel numbness if I touch the place where the skin was broken, although I still enjoy full use of the finger/hand. But it took time for my body to "forgive" the injury. I believe that when we are hurt inside, our minds/souls require time to process these injuries as well. You can't just think a thought like flipping on or off a light switch and expect immediate healing. There's a part of the process, though, where, IMO, forgiveness is the best medicine. Each person has his/her own way of dealing with this stuff. One verse that rings true for me is... Eccl.5:20 - For he shall not much remember the days of his life; because God answereth him in the joy of his heart. Sometimes you can get healed, not by saying in your mind 'I forgive, I forgive' but by just having a life, living it, and not letting yourself be distracted by past hurts. But this is not always possible. In the analogy I used about cutting my finger, part of my body's ability to "forgive" the injury involved my whole body as a support system. If one member suffer, all members suffer with it, right? A medical person could explain it better, but when my finger was freshly cut, then the rest of my body sent nutrients or something to that area to speed up the healing process. I think it's easier to forgive if you are part of a body of people with a support system. We don't have twi any more, but many of us have moved on to SOMETHING else like that. GSC, perhaps. I have rarely asked God to help me forgive somebody/something. I can still work myself into a rage over something that happened decades ago if I let myself. I just don't think I should have to not be able to get through a day without thinking about stuff that is painful. I see no point in that.

quote: Of course he did, John. If he didn't, you and I were following the ministry of a man who "didn't know what he was doing". Is that how you like to think of yourself? As someone who followed the guidance of someone who didn't know what he was doing? Do you really think that silly "answer a question with a question" nonsense will fly here? Did he? The Jews Jesus prayed about knew what they were doing PHYSICALLY. They knew that by having Jesus arrested, having an illegal trial late that night, having a second trial during the next morning in which they put burlap bags over his head and blugeoned him and taunted him to identify his attacker, then taking him to Pilate, to Herod, then back to Pilate, then waiting one more day, then gleefully watching him get crucified while taunting him yet again...they KNEW that this would cause him to suffer and die...YET Jesus said they didn't know what they were doing. They didn't know that their actions were opposed to the God they claimed to serve and worship. Forgiveness is first for YOU! If you can't or won't forgive, then you are saying to all who see you that YOU are in bondage. Silly? Answer a question with a question is silly? Matt.15:1-3 - Then came to Jesus scribes and Pharisees which were of Jerusalem saying, why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? For they wash not their hands when they eat bread. But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition? It wasn't silly to Jesus. It wasn't silly to them, either; they got offended (v.12). Titus1:10,11 - For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision: whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake. This verse is talking about born again ones in the fellowship; people who "had the class". Every place I lived in twi there seemed to be a pocket of believers who were always at odds with leadership, always making trouble just to make trouble. Notice it doesn't say "whose cash flow must be stopped", it says "mouths". Jesus did this a lot by answering a question with a question. Mark 12:13-17 - and they send unto him certain of the Pharisees and of the Herodians to catch him in his words. And when they were come, they say unto him, Master we know that thou atr true, and carest for no man, for thou regardest not the person of men, but teachest the way of God in truth; is it lawful to give tribute to Caesar, or not? Shall we give, or shall we not give? But he, knowing their hypocrisy, said unto them, why tempt ye me? Bring me a penny, that I may see it. And they brought it. And he saith unto them, Whose is this image and superscription? And they say unto him, Caesar's.And Jesus answering, said unto them, render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's. And they marvelled at him. It goes on like that, and finally... verse 34b - And no man after that durst ask him any question. In other words, their mouths were stopped. Silly, huh?

Did he?

quote: "father forgive them for they know not what they do". this prayer by jesus is the "gold standard" of forgiveness. So....if they KNEW what they were doing (like the devil did) they could not be forgiven. Cain was not forgiven. Gehazi was not forgiven. Blasphemers against the holy ghost have not forgiveness in this world or that which is to come. Harsh but true. The verse that rings true to me is Gal6:1. It takes forgiveness to do that. Puts you on the offensive.

My point is that you believe what you believe and you really have no more "proof" than me. There. My 3000th post. Yay!

All over the motorcoach? Talebearer's license, I'm sure.

quote: and all he really cared about was money. You don't know that. quote: Who is speaking of works to earn salvation? No one I have read. Me either. I spoke of producing spiritual fruit by trying to perfect your flesh. You can't produce fruit of the spirit unless you already have salvation. quote: He told everyone else sex outside of marrage was wrong, meanwhile his motorcoach had a revolving door. As I said, there is no guarantee that a born again one will always act virtuously. quote: Paul is telling us right here God gives morality. God gave mankind the capacity to make moral decisions. Romans2:14 - For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these having not the law are a law unto themselves; These heathen made moral decisions that were pleasing to God. verse 15 - Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another; But they aren't/weren't born again. All the law could enable them to do was accuse or excuse one another. The law could not give life. 3:20-22 - Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin, but now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all that believe, for there is no difference. No difference between VP, you, and me. This is supposed to be GOOD news.

Witness: It is my opinion, that he was too drunk on Drambuie to take my confrontation of the word seriously. Attorney: Did you give him a breathalizer examination? Witness: No. Attorney: Then how do you know he was drunk? Witness: Well... Attorney: And could you tell the difference between Drambuie and, say, Grand Marnier just from smelling his breath? Witness: Um... Attorney: How do you know it wasn't Listerine? Witness: HE WAS DRUNK, OK? Attorney: Objection, your honor, move that her remark be stricken. Judge: Objection sustained. Did you actually see him drinking ANY alcohol? Witness: No, sir. Attorney: No more questions for this witness. Judge: Witness may step down.

quote: morals are man-made? Really?!?! please provide some documentation to back up that philosophical assertion. Gen.6:5 - and God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. Gen.8:20,21 - and Noah builded an altar unto the Lord; and took of every clean beast, and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt offerings on the altar. And the Lord smelled a sweet savour; and the Lord said in His heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; FOR THE IMAGINATION OF MAN'S HEART IS EVIL FROM HIS YOUTH; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done. Many people today would consider the slaughter of animals and birds immoral, yet God says it smelled good. Gal.3:24,25 - Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. Heb.7:19 - For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did, by the which we draw nigh unto God. Yes, God gave the law, which included the 10 commandments and many other commandments, but God knew the law would take mankind only so far. Christ had to come into the world sinless like Adam and Eve, and he had to STAY that way, unlike Adam and Eve, which he DID! Christ already did the work; we don't have to. VP said it best in chapter 6 of the blue book, the counsel of the Lord, that mankind cannot produce spiritual fruit by trying to perfect his flesh. Gal.5:19-21 lists some works of the flesh and verses 22,23 list the fruit of the spirit, ALL of it. If avoiding the works of the flesh was the object, then why weren't ALL of them listed? It says "and such like" in verse 21. If having the fruit of the spirit was dependent on avoiding the works of the flesh, then shouldn't ALL works of the flesh be listed? It doesn't say we have either the works of the flesh OR the fruit of the spirit, one or the other. The truth is we all have both. Those not born again only have works of the flesh. Tom Burke's line comes to mind, "he looks as righteous as an eagle scout, but the wrong seed's in him and it won't come out". This is possible. Works of the flesh can look oh, so religious and legitimate and safe. But we who are born again have the option of fruit of the spirit. This doesn't get rid of our flesh and the works thereof, it just gives us an option (escape clause) to act virtuously despite our having flesh and the works thereof. It doesn't guarantee that a born again one will always act virtuously, either. God doesn't control us; we're not robots. It is the utmost in absurdity to believe that "well, I don't DO the works of the flesh, therefore I am SPIRITUAL and every thought in my head is the word of God". Isn't that kinda what LCM thought during his reign of terror? Yes, he thought he was morally superior and look where it got him? God could give us enough morals to cover every second of our lives like LCM did from 1994-2000 to those poor SOBs still in then. But it's totally up to each individual to apply morals, and none of us will do it perfectly; that's why Christ had to come. Therefore I say, morals are man made.

So how do you know VP was always drunk on Drambuie?