johniam

quote: Now it's time to cut the hair, get off the reefer, go back to college, and get a job - figuratively speaking. What? I've done all those things literally, but not figuratively. OK. Well, I didn't get a bachelor's degree, just an associates. Yeah, college. Where they let you espouse any belief system EXCEPT Christianity. Yeah, that's the ticket. quote: John is a troll. A good one at that. If you want trolls, go back several years to those Jehovah's witness castoffs who squatted on GSC for a time. Those guys were as bad as ANYBODY on transnet. I'm not intentionally posting "outrageous" things, or whatever that troll definition says, I'm just posting my opinion. Is spite the tenth fruit of the spirit? That's the obvious motivation for many of your posts. It gets back to moral superiority. You guys are morally superior, so you can handle it. You can be spiteful and it's OK cause you can handle it. I want to address this concept of "love bombing" again. Recently Twinky welcomed TonyZamboni to GSC on a thread in the open forum called 'I have opportunities' or something. This is GSCs form of love bombing. Nothing wrong with it. Many such posts have occurred. But if Tony or anybody goes the way of Johniam, the love bombing stops, doesn't it. Several years ago my wife and I went church shopping. Those people in those churches we visited seemed to perk up a bit for "new people" just as much as any twig I've been in, or visited. I want to talk about 2 other things now. One is twi related, one is not. Weird thing is, the one that is twi related is the one I'm leaning toward starting a new thread about; the one that's not is what I'd like to put here. I dunno.

I've heard non twi people say opportunity instead of problem as far back as 20 years ago. Same for when you assume you make an @** of you and me. Funny some think twi stole their classes but their cult terminology was original? Maybe. One thing that bothered me was this woman I once lived in the same house with used to always say "would it bless you to...." whatever she wanted me or others to do. The vibe was "this is supposed to bless you even if it doesn't, so do it, OK?" I HATED that. I don't think you have to be in a cult to try to manipulate with words, but it was definitely done in twi.

quote: I wanted to revisit this. So apparantly you were kicked out of TWI by a local region/limb idiot. He told you that you were "too dangerous" to come to fellowship. As a result you've rejected him as well as the leadership in power during that time, LCDumb@$$. Now years later apparently you've found a local Corpse or Corpse Alumni that accepts you and has you in their fellowship. Because they accept you, and you play songs at their kids fellowships, and have a little family like circle around you, you feel safe, esconced in the love bombing or whatever, and don't give a second thought to the fact that LCDumb@$$'s wife and her girlfriend Rosie the Horrible currently are carrying out the same type of monstrocities burning people just like that local region / limb idiot did to you. Do you think that during LCDumb@$$'s reign he burned all those people on his own? Or maybe possibly his wife helped and was the source of a lot of that too? Of course she was, and I have heard multiple accounts of this in the past and recent past. Sheesh, it's like people have to put their hands on a hot stove multiple times to figure out that it's hot. It's TWI. That means that eventually you're going to feel the effects. It's just amazing to me how even the second and third time around all you need to do is a little "love bombing" and people are ready to give up their entire base of rational thought for a feeling. You still haven't told me when you were in twi. Burning people? I didn't get "burned", I just got forced out of twi. I admit I second guessed that decision a bit, but I never really thought that God was going to let "evil things" happen to me. I also didn't blame ALL way corps for the actions of the ones who forced me out. LCM started "purifying" the ministry in 1989 but that was mostly for the way corps. It wasn't until 1994 that he REALLY went off the deep end and wanted EVERYBODY to be "pure" like him. LOL. He says "we're gonna do this thing RIGHT if I personally have to coordinate every twig fellowship!" Ever see that show 'Undercover boss'? They should do plastic surgery on LCM so nobody'd recognize him and have HIM be twi's undercover boss. Send him somewhere to be the limb secretary. That'd be good. Love bombing? I get love bombed every day by Jesus himself, man.

The gurdawad's the gillawad! quote: First, because the issue of wife abuse in India is not the topic of discussion. It never IS! quote: The Supreme Court of India as ruled a woman's dowry to be her own property and she has absolute rights of them. Well, good for India! Seriously. quote: Have you ever been raped, John? Men do get raped, you know. By other men. But,my guess is that you have not. Because, if you had, I don't think you would be so quick to minimize the physical pain, loss of self confidence, sense of unworthiness and mental anguish that accompanies it. I don't think you would want anyone calling it "small stuff" in comparison to anything. Have YOU? I think it was on the 'was vp a good man' thread. I detailed having been sexually assaulted while hitching in Canada. Physical pain? Not much. Loss of self confidence? Yes. Sense of unworthiness and mental anguish? Definitely. But ultimately it WAS small stuff. Lots of people suffer lots more than that. There was a huge headline here in STL 4 years ago. A pizza parlor manager in his early 40s kidnapped an 11 year old boy, kept him as a sex slave for 4 1/2 years, then kidnapped a 13 year old boy from the same rural area for the same purpose. This man told the first boy he'd kill his parents if the boy called the police. Finally a cop saw this guy's vehicle and guessed right (a witness thought he saw the same vehicle used in the abduction of the 2nd boy). The guy is to serve 75 consecutive life sentences. If you want to look him up his name is Michael Devlin. But how'd you like to be either one of those boys? Especially the first one? The first one was on Oprah with his family. Lots of suffering and death in this world. Minimize? I'm one of 6 billion people. The only thing in life that is "fair" is the truth that God is no respecter of persons. If God healed MY heart, He can heal anyone's. Jesus knew life isn't fair... Luke 13:1-5 - There were present at that season some that told him of the Galileans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. And Jesus answering said unto them, suppose ye that these Galileans were sinners above all the Galileans, because they suffered such things? I tell you, nay, but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. Or those eighteen upon whom the tower in Saloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem? I tell you, nay, but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. We have already repented. Haven't we? Are we going to have to "repent" of having "repented" in pfal?

quote: Hey, Johniam, glad your tree landed where the damage was minimal. Not through the middle of anyone's house or on top of anyone. Small stuff (happily) compared with what's going on in Japan right now. I could use the same argument when sex abuse victims tell their stories. I could say that in India it's still possible for a husband to find his wife not pleasing and have her burned. That twi sex abuse is small stuff compared to that. I didn't think you'd be impressed. quote: and if you take a look at those in scripture who have truly been in the presence of God Job was not a son of God; he was a servant. We in the grace administration (the great mystery) are sons and daughters. The finished work of Jesus changed a few things. Mankind now has access to God; no more servants, but sons! You are in the presence of God for eternity. quote: You know on this element, honestly I'm a little more alarmed with you at your acceptance of all the evil at the top of TWI because it doesn't affect you than I am about a few people in your local fellowship coming over for a chainsaw wood splitting party. What of all the control at the top of TWI? What of the regurgitatingly vanilla STS teachings, magazine articles? What of the mandates regarding debt? The egotistical arrogant attitude? Actually, I did not accept this. That was when I walked away. I can't imagine what it feels like to have submitted to LCMs vanity for those years. Well, the only clue I have is what I have read here about the MI limb/region leader who 1) told me I was too dangerous to mingle with the household of God, 2) left twi saying he'd been following a lunatic for 6 years, 3) called Wayne Clapp after he left saying that he didn't know what he was going to do right then, that he was going to take time to figure it out, and 4) ended up going into business and doing well (but not being a clergyman anymore). When that guy first came to MI we heard he was the best quality limb leader we'd had in over 10 years. When he spoke to me telling me I wasn't welcome in twi fellowships he said he could guaran-damn-tee me he wasn't going to change his mind. I don't know him personally, but it appears he experienced some 'vexation of spirit' dealing with this. But again, compare that with the US government. Has there not been "evil" at the top of it as well? Should I 1) expatriate, 2) become a revolutionary of some kind, 3)join a cult (oops, already did that), or 4) just deal with stuff? If the evil in the US government doesn't affect you, it's easier to blow it off, I guess. I just believe we all have access to God and that He can make a lot of stuff right. God doesn't favor me above any of you.

I'm really not out of the woods yet. The storm blew the tree down 11:30 PM late on a Sunday night. The news advised everybody to go down the basement at that time. Monday was when the adjuster came, saw the damage and made his conclusions. He retreated to a car computer which calculated the mean costs for tree removal and fence replacement for that size fence. I'm going to try to remove the fence myself, but if I do have to hire someone to come for anything, then the cost may exceed all the money they gave me. This is the first, and hopefully, last claim I'll ever file with them. The only other time I filed a claim with homeowners was 2001, when a hailstorm battered our roof, but that was with another insurer. Geisha, yes, I think it glorifies God when his family comes together to help someone in need. Even non Christians can do that. As far as "respectable sins" are concerned, to me it's not a moral issue as much as it's a quality of life issue. If God really is our Father and not just our God, then shouldn't we feel comfortable in His presence, even if we just screwed something up, or still have weaknesses of our flesh? Do the Obama girls have to beg their dad with sackcloth and ashes if they want to get something out of the refrigerator at the white house residential area? Is Barack Obama just their president now or is he still their daddy? Doesn't he love them the same way, or does he have to filter their daddy love through their presidential love? But God isn't as loving as our president? I don't provoke my kids to wrath by keeping them scared that I don't love them any more by making too many rules for them. At least, not on purpose. Sure, kids need discipline; even God's kids. Hebrews 12 says God corrects those He loves. Personally, I'd rather be too laid back than too harsh.

On a related note. Owsley (Bear) has passed away. Died in a car crash in Austrailia, where he has lived for awhile. He was 76. Interesting that he lived so long, being an LSD pioneer, and so did Dr. Albert Hoffman, the swiss physicist who discovered LSD, who died several years ago at 102. Interesting that some GSers make a point of saying VP wasn't really a doctor. Well, Dr. VPW did more good for me than Dr. Hoffman did. For those unfamiliar with Owsley, his full name is Augusus Owsley Stanley. He had legal troubles when LSD was made illegal in 1966 and he was the Grateful Dead's sound engineer at one time.

No harm, no foul? Didn't I say the tree was 70' tall and 2 1/2 feet thick at the base? It fell on fencing and a wooden shed. So you think it's morally wrong to convert the wood into fire wood? What was I supposed to do? Pay some company to come into my neighbor's yard and haul away a bunch of tree sections a foot tall and 2 1/2 feet thick? No thanks. For one thing, my neighbor called her landlord and he never came out to see the damage or called them back. That was 2 weeks ago. Well, remember that Michal the daughter of Saul thought it was morally wrong for David to bless all Israel with food and wine and dance naked. David did something to bless people and her first reflex was to lay a guilt trip on him. I ask my friends to help me out in a situation (hell of a way to spend a Saturday), so they do it to bless me, it blesses my neighbor to get the big tree out of his yard, it blesses him and other neighbors to get free firewood, but your first reflex is to lay a guilt trip on me about it. My insurance adjuster knew I might need some of the money to do things other than tree removal and fence repair; he said so. I don't know exactly how the insurance business works. I know insurance fraud is a serious matter. But you ARE a morality cop if your first reflex is to find fault. You must be a lot of fun to be in a relationship with LOL. Twinky: OK, I stopped posting on 'Dishing it out' like you said you wanted. Oldskool also requested that I not post there anymore even though I still don't think I alone did anything to that thread. But now nobody else is posting on it either. Jeez you guys are fickle. You should be thankful I started posting again; you haven't had this much excitement for awhile. I guess.

Quote: Didn't LCM wipe the 1st WC records clean and then give out honorary membership to it? At ROA 1993 one night LCM said that Gary Curtis, who had been the last 1st corps still standing had left, so there were no more 1st corps, so he made the trustee family (Don, Wanda, Howard, and Emogene) honorary 1st corps. Fitting that Howard would write that threatening letter to Bo. "Hey! I'M the 1st corps now! You get out of here!"

quote: I find it interesting that "putrid fruit" of an organization is raised, directly challenging Johniam; and he answers with something completely different. Ah well. Have at it, John. Ah, but this is where YOUR focus is in question. Putrid fruit? You're talking about ME! Me, and thousands MORE believers. We all still find much value in what VP did. How do you know YOU aren't the ones with your heads buried in the sand? But this is what we all have in common. You have proved that you can live without anything remotely twi, and I and my ilk have proved that we CAN still fellowship together like in twi. It's a level playing field. I'm not the only game in town, and neither are you. This doesn't bother ME. What's YOUR problem? quote: Why file a claim if there was no harm, no foul, or no need to pay for tree removal? Gonna send that part of the check back? It's all about money to you, isn't it? Just because I need tree removal doesn't mean I have to pay top dollar. I DID pay for the rental of the splitter and I fed those guys. Overall it was a good transaction; those guys didn't intrude into our lives and we made it as convenient for them as we could. Our neighbors didn't seem to mind the noise. I probably got enough fire wood to last 3-5 years, but I'm going to give what I don't have room for to my neighbors. But leave it to you, the morality cop, to find SOMETHING wrong with it.

quote: then what does that tell you about the organization? Irrelevant. They taught me the bible; I believed what they taught; my life is better. End of controversy. Next diary entry: Today was good. A 75' tall ash tree 2 1/2 feet in diameter fell during a storm 2 weeks ago. It destroyed fencing between my property and my neighbor's and it fell on a shed and all but destroyed that, too. The insurance adjuster cut us a check for tree removal and fence repair. The neighbor just laughed. They didn't even use the shed. So I called a believer and told him what happened. Today 5 guys came over. Three of them had chain saws and we rented a splitter. Started at 8:30, finished at 2PM. Lots of firewood, nothing in the neighbor's yard. Some of you probably call that "arborcide". I call it the family working together.

quote: I do wish, however, that you would please take up the cause elsewhere, perhaps on the thread Twinky made. I came back to this thread to read about CFFM, who has my interest in a good way. But what do I find? another lengthy defense from you. So where's all this interest in CFFM? These threads seem to have a life of their own, too.

Waysider: Regarding W and U, as I said, I don't care if my analogy is not a 100% match. quote: QUOTE LCM was presumptuous to act like we OWE twi our utmost commitment beyond our lifetime. VP wasn't like that. VP may have expected more of way corps, but he knew that it doesn't do God any favors to guilt people into serving. He as much as said that in the way living in love somewhere He may have said that in the book, but, it certainly wasn't reflected in the way he dealt with Gary Dunhoff's death. Apples and oranges: VP wasn't trying to guilt anyone into service, he was saying get it together or get out. He was harder on way corps than others; he thought God let that happen because they knew better. He was saying after all this time why don't you believe me. I recall a recent thread where this (Gary Dunhoff's death) was discussed, but I also read about it a few years ago in an excerpt of KKs book on Waydale. quote: I'm not great at analogy interpretation, so will have to guess. 1. Cosmopolitans are a New York drink and drinking them in St. Louis while you are a woman in a public service office will cause New Yorkers to give you a black eye? 2. We should be outraged at VPW, he should be held to a higher standard, and God should do that? 3. The fact that VPW was a drunken lecherous charlatan didn't change the Bible, just cause new interpretations of it? 4. Citizens of St. Louis county aren't rethinking criminal law? I don't know, man, maybe I've got it all wrong. But people will do stupid things, cult leaders will bewitch masses, people will get used, God is still God, and a good portion of citizens of St. Louis county are selling meth thereby living criminal law as opposed to rethinking it, for which it's doubtful they have the capacity. A good portion? There are 2.5 million people in St. Louis city and county. How good is good? Most of that activity is done out in the rural areas, I recently read. BTW Chockfull? If you don't mind my asking, when were you in twi? Sounds like since 1994. quote: First off, to get a proper analogy you'd have to have this happen with a procecutor--who interprets the law books and decides who goes to trial and who doesn't. Not the cop in the street, while valuable, they're at about the level of a twig leader. The cop in the street is our contact with government, the twig leader is our contact with The Way. Again, I don't care if my analogies are a 100% match. An analogy is like a parable. Jesus' parables weren't a 100% match; they drew a parallel between 2 things. For example the parable of the prodigal son (Luke 15). This parable drew a parallel between 3 principal povs in 2 different situations. In the actual scenerio, there was 1) Jesus, who spoke for God, the true forgiving Father, 2) the publicans and sinners, and 3) the Pharisees and scribes, who were resentful when they should have been rejoicing. In the parable there was 1) the forgiving father, 2) the younger son, who was being judged by...3) the older son, who was resentful when he should have been rejoicing. Get it? Both VP and the officer were people who were associated with a standard which had authority behind it, who did unspeakable things. That's the comparison. Argue all you want.

I have another analogy. Last year a police officer, a woman, drove drunk and killed 4 teenagers. On Wednesday she was sentenced to 8 years in prison. Lots of local outrage. The teens families are from India. They wonder if the light sentence is because they're foreigners. She drank 5 Cosmopolitans at a pub. Other officers were there yet didn't stop her. I don't even know what a Cosmopolitan is. The analogy is that as an officer, should she have been held to a higher standard? She probably arrested others for this. Put cuffs on them, read them their rights, etc. We say that VP was a clergyman, so he should be held to a higher standard. We should be outraged. He should have morals, so he should be penalized MORE because he was a recognized moral leader. Treatment of VP is now up to God, and treatment of the woman is up to the courts for now, but even though the woman was an officer, knew the law, enforced the law, gave law enforcement a black eye by doing what she did, she didn't negate the law! Drunk driving is still illegal. All the reasoning behind that and related laws is still respected. The citizens of St. Louis county don't have to individually rethink all criminal law just because an officer who was recognized as an enforcer of the law did something unspeakable. I think you can figure out where the rest of this analogy is headed.

quote: There's an old Yiddish proverb: when the first man calls you a donkey, laugh. When the second man calls you a donkey, get angry. When the third man calls you a donkey, punch his face. When the fourth man calls you a donkey, buy a saddle. A lot more than 4 people called Jesus a deceiver and a heretic. He didn't try to appease them; he stuck to what he thought was right.

quote: My opinion differs. To take a young person in their teens or just out away from their family, immerse them in TWI in their homes and all their activities, produces a higher level of indoctrination. Can that be good for people and can they exist in that beneficially? Sure, there's a lot good basic people can do to shield those in their fellowships from the problems higher up. Many of us did that as well. But at some point you have to pay the piper, one way or another. True enough, but the same can be applied to military service and even college. What those 3, college, military, and wow have in common is discipline. Each of those things is a different kind of discipline, but ANY discipline will take the person's mind off their family and force them to rethink everything. Even a gang can do that. To an extent, I think it's healthy for young people to spend time away from their family comfort zones at some point.

OK. This is more like a diary entry. Back in the day, LCM once said that the "dropout rate" in twi was highest the year after the wow year. He was acting like that was a BAD thing. I think it's a GOOD thing, and I saw related reenforcement of that couple nights ago. Let me explain: Going wow was sort of a litmus test for the individual. I don't know about that "ten year's growth in one year" stuff, but before going wow, pretty much any believer could lead whatever double life they wanted. Go to twig, put on your church face; go home or elsewhere, put on any other face you want. But when you go wow, you live with and hang out with believers 24/7. Even on your job your time is regimented. No room for a double life. Not arguing the ethics of this, just saying that by the time that wow year is over, you KNOW what you're in for if you continue with twi. So it's perfectly normal if someone decides "hey, this is not for me". TWI was WRONG to try to guilt people into staying committed without letting them think it through on their own. If someone got benefit from twi just from either going wow, taking foundational pfal, or even going to ONE twig fellowship, twi should have been thankful, cause it's God who gives the increase, right? I know of someone who left immediately after his corps graduation by design. So what? The gift without the giver is bare. Not just the gift of finances, any gift...commitment too. LCM was presumptuous to act like we OWE twi our utmost commitment beyond our lifetime. VP wasn't like that. VP may have expected more of way corps, but he knew that it doesn't do God any favors to guilt people into serving. He as much as said that in the way living in love somewhere. So it's perfectly normal if someone decides "hey, this is not for me". BUT it's also perfectly normal if someone decides, "hey, this IS for me", as long as it's their decision. A lot of us did just that. I go to a fellowship run by a 9th corps couple, Russell and Cindy Coleman, whom some of you remember. They have 3 adult children. The elder guy is now 24 years old. He does a fellowship for young adults every Wednesday night. He was raised going to fellowship and taking classes, but wow isn't available anymore. However, he spent about a year living in what amounts to a way home with other young adults in WA state. They had secular jobs, did word related things, and basically hung out together for that time. The change in him is dramatic. Mainly, it's HIS belief system now, not his parents'. He did the same thing as the returning wow who decides, "Hey, this IS for me". That's a GOOD thing, but my overall point is that going wow gave us the enablement to make an informed decision as to whether to continue in this type of ministry or not. I got invited to that fellowship to play 2 songs on guitar. I played Sam Pruyn's 'You've been forgiven' and Dean Ellenwood's 'It's gotta be God'. Normally us old timers are discouraged from going to that fellowship. I don't write many of my own songs, but I'm like an oldies station; I can play several twi songs from back in the day and they're not "old wineskins" to the believers here. Even the young folks like some of them. I suspect that the real reason this thread was started was to get some kind of "payback". You want to coax me into posting things of interest to me just so you can try to "derail" it like you think I have derailed other threads. Well, have at it!

OK. Thanx 4 the thread. I guess I'll treat it as my personal diary. Deep thoughts by Johniam, if you will. quote: while there may be some parallels, the term "witnessing and undershepherding" is TWIspeak. Paul didn't teach "witnessing and undershepherding classes". It might be valuable to rid yourself of all the TWIspeak before you can truly think on your own in a genuine fashion. I don't view raising children as "witnessing and undershepherding". There are many other choice terms that I can use describing it, depending on the day But that's just IT! The one common point of reference we all have is twi/the bible. I don't care if my analogies aren't a 100% match; this isn't a science class; it's an opinion forum. quote: All the "devil spirits" talk is simply TWI's indoctrinated method to quickly implement "shunning" people. It certainly is the quickest method that a TWI leader can get unsuspecting underlings to not consider the logic of someone's argument. And usually it is a great indication that the argument has merit and is in opposition to the leader. TWI did use the concept of devil spirits to shun people, but they still exist. Jesus MUST have told his disciples SOMETHING about how to spot them, what to say or not say to them, and when to pull the trigger (cast them out). Those guys rejoiced that even the devils were subject to them. Jesus said it was more relevant that their names were written in the book of life, yet he allowed them to be human. Yes, the idea of me myself casting out a devil spirit even with the power of God required to back it up is kind of overwhelming. It is noteworthy that when they are mentioned in scripture, it's usually when they're about to be cast out, or at least, told to shut up. quote: In all the responses to you there are varying degrees of understanding your intention. I wouldn't call that "crippled logic". I would use that as an indication that you need to explain yourself a little more clearly and to more clearly understand where someone else is coming from. No, they aren't trying to "understand my intention"; they've already judged me. My last post on the dishing it out thread may explain some things along these lines, however.

quote: Could I respectfully suggest that if John posts again on this thread - the rest of us ignore him, copy any response onto the Soapbox thread, and respond to him there? He can do what he likes there. Go off on any tangent he likes. Your argument is totally bogus! The first person to start derailing this thread was actually Excathedra; something about don't tell your story because it hurts the kids and grandkids. Then you didn't mind Oldskool, Mstar, Brokenarrow, Chockfull, Socrates, and Skyrider; all these posters, directly comparing CFFM with TWI. This is all on the first page; MY first post was the first post on page 2. I related my experience with CFFM, quite legitimate, on topic. In doing so, I addressed stuff posted by Chockfull, Socrates, and Skyrider. Don't I have the right to dispute what others post? You all certainly dispute me! Then Pawtucket himself made the next post, seemingly concurring with some stuff I posted. That's why you passionately appeal to folks to ignore me. Pawtucket, apparently, won't cooperate with you. Then on post #31 you dispute what I posted. Then I commit the unforgiveable; I IGNORE you. Then, in post #37 you accuse ME of derailing this thread. It's been 3 months now since I started posting again. I'm not trying to "convert" anyone to any organization or ideology; I'm just giving my opinion, which still embraces much TWI teaching, I admit, but the revised rules say, regarding opinions and povs, "we welcome them ALL". In those same 3 months there have now been several threads which would have had less than 100 posts and stopped except for overreactions to me. It is, I guess, so threatening to have even ONE poster here who sticks to his guns and still supports ANY twi doctrine that, as I said before, the damage control just keeps pouring in. You really DO misrepresent me. If I dispute even ONE thing unofficially recognized as GSC "doctrine", you act like I'm the devil. You assign to me all manner of evil thinking that I NEVER posted or thought. Is it ME that's rattling your cages, or are you doing that yourselves? One more thing. When TWI got going, at least during the 60s, they surely fancied themselves as the other side of the denominational story. People could come to twig, calmly discuss their dissatisfaction with their churches, and receive meaningful input. But by the time someone has been to their hundredth fellowship, sat through their hundredth believer's meeting, and taken foundational pfal for the tenth time, then the other side of the story becomes the ONLY side of the story. That's not something VP could totally control; when that many people get involved, the group takes on a shape and life of its own. That's true of any business as well. To many of you, the other side of the twi story is now the ONLY side of the story. That's not Pawtucket's doing, it's YOURS! Paul Allen didn't post that much on Waydale either, he picked his spots. I can't stop you from ignoring me or even forcing me off here, I guess, but what does it say about YOU that you say "Aughhhh! I'm melting!" just because ONE poster can't be persuaded to concur with you?

quote: Okay, I opened a new thread specially for Johniam to have his say. Other people have gone there so that they can continue to converse with John. Who hasn't shown up there yet? John!!!! Awwww. All dressed up and no one to seduce.

quote: my witnessing and undershepherding days are long gone Don't you witness and undershepherd your own kid? You may not teach him the word, but you teach him anything you think will help him, right? That's all witnessing and undershepherding is. quote: common sense seems to be what i like Everybody's common sense is based on SOME belief system. quote: Do you really think the inhabitants of GS are a mass shelter for devil spirits, and it is your mission to "clear them out"? LOL. If I was going to suspect anyone of having devil spirits, it wouldn't be because of what you believe about VP et al, it would be because of the crippled logic used in responding to what I say. You still constantly misrepresent me.

quote: Who is saying anything about arresting people, and how did sex offenders and pedophiles get into this conversation? The context is arresting people for what they "might" do. Registering as a sex offender isn't arresting, but it's penalizing. It's opening a can of worms. IMO if somebody is truly a sex offender, is convicted, and doesn't respond properly when given a chance to reenter society, then they should be locked up for life. quote: So you don't like mark and avoid in a secular setting. Yet you condone this type of behavior when Craigmeister did it during one of his purges. You condone this type of behavior now that RR is doing it with the recent scandal in CO. You don't condone this type of behavior? Then why are you silent? The 'mark and avoid' scripture of Romans 16:17,18 is about people who cause doctrinal divisions. In 1 Cor. 5 the admonition to put away that wicked person is, again, about someone with a chronic problem. It's not about penalizing people for what they "might" do. No, I do not condone the behavior of RR or LCM in this regard.

quote: Example, spiritual plane: we on nothing in this world its all on loan, so the Internal Revenue can argue whatever they want, God gets the last word. Did you mean to say we OWN nothing in this world? We all have the burden of deciding what is spiritually relevant and what is not. Jesus in Matt. 17 did not get all morally superior with the Romans about whether they had the right to demand tribute money from Jesus and his disciples, he just gave them what they wanted. What do you think would happen if TWI or CFFM told the IRS "This isn't our money, it's GOD'S money!" You can't just blow off authority figures like that with your moral superiority. Yes, God gets the last word, but not only on the IRS, but on you and me also. In THIS life, we most definitely OWN things.

quote: So out of all the points I made in the past two, three post this is the only one you could cherry pick to make some sort of counter argument I have to "cherry pick" because there's no substance in most of your arguments. quote: You and I are only ambassadors. Those who share the good news. Not the ones who actually "reconcile men to God".. God already wants to reconcile, and any willing person that comes to Him is reconciled, but you and I are just there to share the news and help point the way if they willing want to go and reconcile.. If you want to call that help, reconciling, well, it's your business. According to 2 Cor. 5, God has GIVEN us the ministry (service) of reconciliation, and God has COMMITTED unto us the word of reconciliation. We are the link between salvation and eternal death. When I was a WOW I constantly heard people say that if God wants them to believe, then He can just pop in front of them and say "Here I am, believe in me!" Not going to happen. God has given/delegated/committed reconciliation into OUR hands. The church's. Remember that song 'Stand and be counted'? God has no feet but our feet to walk among the dead. Yes, it says that God was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself, but God has committed himself to the church. We really do have the God given right to speak God's word to others regardless of the cultural, moral obstacles in our way.

quote I recall channel surfing once during the 80s. Donahue, the consumate liberal Christianity bigot, was grilling Orel Roberts because he (OR) charged money at his hospital. Orel says "it's kinda hard to pay electric bills without money". Then Donahue holds the mike up to some guy who says "yeah, you make a lot of money in the faith business, don't you"? Donahue was not a liberal Christian bigot. Donahue was not a Christian at all. He was just a jerk. Maybe, "consumate liberal bigot" would be more fitting. Sleep it off and LOOK at what I actually posted. I did not say "Christian bigot", I said CHRISTIANITY bigot. He is, IMO, a liberal who is a bigot who targets Christianity. There. That spell it out for you?