johniam

quote: thank you that you believe me, johniam Waysider is right, but I appreciate that you're willing to share stuff like that. You posted recently that early on in Waydale/GSC you would delete entire posts because it felt bad to read it after you posted it. I think I remember one such post. It was on a thread started by Qamiqasi on the open forum. It wasn't about twi; it was about female beauty from a historic perspective. It wasn't too racy, but there were 3 or 4 other females besides you who erased whole sections of posts at some point. But look at you now. I have to admit that sometimes I dread the idea that stuff I've posted here could be read aloud in a court of law. Yuck! But it just feels good to get stuff out in the open. I suspect that the number of twi people, men in particular, who were like VP, is relatively small, but the ones who weren't like that had to tolerate it. Similar to men in a war who had to shoot at innocent civilians per their commanding officer. They really HAD to; they'd get court martialed if they didn't..or worse. But they couldn't possibly have been comfortable with it. The men in the fellowship I currently attend. I spend a lot of time with them. Camping, canoeing, wood cutting, drinking, etc. Just us men. In the 6 years I've hung out with them, not ONCE have I heard any of them say anything lewd or derogatory about their wives or any other women in the fellowship. Just doesn't happen. They KNOW that the sexual stuff in twi really happened. They've all been married 20 plus years just like me. They do physical work for a living like me. There's no inner circle of "mature believers" or whatever. I know who you are, BTW. Never met you, unless I happened to be standing in line next to you at an ROA or something. I know who your first husband is and I've met him before. I guess I shouldn't assume he is the 'fiance' you spoke of, but did you ever tell him what VP did? Was HE like VP in that way? I can't help but be curious. OMG! I'm going to read Kris' book sometime. Have you read it? Do you recommend it for someone like me?

quote: All things being equal - how can anyone NOT speak for what they know to be true? We may avoid it at times but if we know what we know - it is what it is, and it's really cool and fun when it's not a major pain in the but t. I remember when my wow training was over I felt pumped up, like I had a mission in life, like my life was important. This lasted a few weeks, too. It lasted until security kicked us off the U of MO Rolla campus. We witnessed there a lot. Late in the year our family coordinator said that the average wow in MO witnessed 1 hour per day. Not like it was a disgrace; more like it was reasonable, realistic. How can anyone NOT speak? Fear. The world builds fear to speak the word in people. Even politically, each side of the liberal/conservative spectrum tries to build fear in the other side. I think in twi we believed we were speaking for God, not just for a better community. Even L. Ron Hubbard, founder of the church of Scientology, said "you'll have to work if you want a sane, safe, civilization". I agree that being part of a believing community can be fun. Sometimes it seemed like all the universe was in sync with twi.

quote: Is it possible Johniam could suffer from Asperger's syndrome? I can't think why else he would be so obsessed with one principal idea (about VP) and so lacking in empathy to other people - and so quick to jump from one thing to another and never stay on topic. Aspergers syndrome Sorry, that's a bit personal, John, but I really do not understand why you don't empathize and follow along with conversations. If there's a reason, I think we'd all be glad to cut you some slack. I think to an extent that you DO cut me some slack. I mean, face it, if enough of you really really wanted me out of here, I'd be gone. Interesting you should mention Aspergers. I know you meant it as kind of a put down, but I have 2 sons who are autistic. The elder is 20. Half his school day for the 3rd year in a row is at a work site. They all say he does well. That he has good organizational skills and a good attitude. The younger is 16; he learned to swim this year. Some people think the word 'retarded' is offensive. I do not. It means slow. Special ed kids are allowed to proceed at a slower pace than regular ed kids. With autism, the common denominator is difficulty with verbal communication skills, as noted in the wikipedia article you gave the link to. Having watched them grow up, I have concluded that they respond to love as much as any regular ed kids and their play time was healthy. Whether they were playing with the toys we got them or the boxes they came in, the would totally immerse themselves in their play. I think all kids NEED time to do that. As far as why I don't "empathize", I don't totally understand it, either. Let me explain. I am not a stone cold heartless person. I have a lot to be thankful for. My family, our house, my job, the spiritual family, and the relationship with God. I don't deserve any of that. When I read about what happened to Excathedra and Marsha, and Kris Skedgell, of course I find it disturbing. The idea that a man I've respected for almost 35 years now would do something like that. I believe they're all telling the truth. If I read an article about a serial killer or rapist I'm always glad when they're caught. One thing that bothers me is, as I alluded to a few days ago, if this was so heinous and so traumatic, how could these women stay with twi for 5-10 more years? Nobody really stuck a gun to their heads. Guilt? Mind control? What does that mean? Fear, self preservation? That would make more sense. But I think about what happened to these women and I wait for it to sink in. Surely, some moment in time it'll all hit me. I'll realize, HEY! You've been played! But that isn't happening. Why not? Isaiah 55 says the Lord's thoughts and His ways are higher than man's thoughts and ways. To me, if that's true, then it really doesn't matter WHO teaches this stuff. By their fruits ye shall know them? Everybody has both good and bad fruit. Even VP. I've heard people tell of kind things VP did for them. I think VP DID really think what he was doing was OK. His intent was not to victimize, it was to please himself. A serial killer/rapist takes pleasure knowing his victims will suffer. VP didn't do that. Insensitive? Selfish? Big time. Any of those women could have played dumb until they got out of the motor coach and then called the cops, the FBI, ghostbusters, or anybody they wanted to call at that time. The fact that they didn't is significant. It is definitely possible that VP didn't see that these women were uncomfortable with what had happened. Drugging them? That's significant, too. Still a lot of grey areas, though, from where I look. Do I HAVE to post these opinions HERE? Like I said, I think you've all cut me some slack thus far.

quote: So inerrancy is a "new" claim about scriptures made from what I see as a defensive position. In my view, it stems from a fear that a study of the Bible's sources and different writers, claims, errors, etc. would bother people. I disagree. Plenty of Christians accept the imperfections in the texts while still believing in God, Jesus, salvation, etc. If God is not perfect, then Jesus was not perfect, then our very salvation, eternal life, access to God is also in question. I refuse to debate this. God IS perfect, our salvation is a done deal, and Jesus finished the works his Father gave him to do. Scripture validates this. 2 Peter 1:20,21 - Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the holy ghost. That says inerrancy to me. John 10:35 - If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken. If the scripture cannot be broken, then the scripture is inerrant. We can and do debate what constitutes scripture. Example: the comma in 'verily I say unto you, today' or 'unto you today,' etc. VP has just as much right to reach conclusions as anybody else. I have as much right to choose him as a competent authority as others have to choose someone else. quote: How does one come to the place where posting this is "correct" after years of seeing it obviously is non-factual? There's a few possibilities: A) Lying is perfectly acceptable if the poster is the one doing it. B) One can't see outside the mental "prison" of a framework that only holds extremes. C) One can distort things if one is upset. D) One is hallucinating completely and doesn't see the posts others make at all. I find all the possibilities disappointing and sad. You keep attacking my credibility, yet you continue piling on as if the "integrity of GSC is always at stake". THAT is what is sad.

quote: I'll shamelessly plug my own story and article which are posted on the front page as further bits of "what we got" for your review. I read the article a few weeks ago, and I just read it again. It pits VPs 'fundamentalist' position against a position which doesn't believe the bible is inerrant. But either position leaves room for the same potential, IMO. VPs position is, in a nut shell... the bible is God's word God is perfect therefore, the bible is perfect. That is the premise for his research, right? He further says that the closer you look at something man made, the more imperfection you see, but the closer you look at something made by God, the more perfection you see. That is some air tight logic. He always said read it for your self. But if anybody read it for themselves and came to a different conclusion than VP, there were problems. OK, point well made, but the other position is no different. If I believe the bible is not inerrant, then my 'research' is going to look for scripture and supportive logic which agrees with THAT. You have to start with SOME kind of premise that only YOU can decide. If I'm a clergyman and I don't believe that the bible is inerrant, then I have to justify how I can believe in an imperfect word of a perfect God. This will involve insisting that my followers agree with my "take" on scripture, which is not inerrant. If one of my followers disagrees with my take on scripture, I'll eventually have to pull rank on him/them. How is this really different than VP as a mode of research? Different strategy; same potential for friction. It made sense to us that if God is perfect, then His word had to be perfect as well. I think a lot of us got a lot of mileage off that.

Penworks: Duly noted, but, I think there are several others on this thread who have made up their minds about VP.

Just thought of something. As believers, as the church, as ambassadors for Christ, we were told we had the power (authority) to speak God's word any time anywhere. In scripture, sometimes it was 'in season/out of season' and sometimes it was 'the spirit suffered them not'. We were also told that the adversary hates us speaking the word more than anything. I agree. You want a question? OK, here's a question. What affect, if any, did taking the AC have on your speaking of the word? How long did this last? In late August of '78 I brought my mother to a fellowship. We were in someone's back yard. The teacher that day was an early 20s girl who had just taken the AC. She was OK as a person/believer. But she began her teaching by screaming "who wants to be pope? who wants to lie, cheat, steal, kill, etc.?" Whew. With slightly less volume she continued her teaching for a few minutes. Then it rained...HARD...enough to force everybody inside, the teaching was over. The rain lasted only a few minutes. I looked at her face later and it seemed like she KNEW what she had done. My mother wasn't very impressed. It was years later before I had the nerve to ask her to go to another fellowship. The good part was... taking the AC made this girl aware that she, too, could speak God's word with authority. The bad part was...you don't need to blow up the house just to swat a mosquito in the kitchen. Just a glitch in technique, I guess. I had 6 years to mull over this before taking the AC myself. My first day at work after the class was over, and, sure enough, I mauled this poor guy in the break room. Talked about the devil's armpit, yes I did. I, too, could speak the word with authority. This guy already knew I was a 'Jesus freak' and he didn't give me any weirder looks after that than before; didn't even try to avoid me, but my zeal didn't last long. I guess the 'urgency of the times' isn't a good enough excuse to 'serve' people.

quote: I think I"m still trying to understand what your original question is/was johniam. I wanted to get some discussion going. Didn't really have a question. It's just something I ran through my mind lately; wanted to see what folks here might say about it. I took twi's AC twice; once at Emporia and once in fall of '84 when they did classes for grads in local areas all over the country. Maybe GSC isn't the place, but I was actually hoping someone would say, "Oh, no! The AC connected with ME! Let me tell you about it....etc.". That kind of thing. The only twi spinoff that I KNOW has an AC is John Hendricks' CRF. Chris Geer has one on the way, I'm told. CG plans to run his ACs in the local areas; not at a central location. John Hendricks' are all done at Destin, FL, near where he lived. I can't really dispute anything you said. I think you make a good point about how doing the miracles was not about 'look at me, I have power' it was about 'there is a need here, how can I help'? Perhaps this should have been emphasized more.

All you guys got is.... VPW sinned in his flesh...therefore nothing he ever said is true. You can come up with many ways to say this and elaborate on it, but... That's all you got. Case dismissed.

quote: I needed a relationship with a loving Father. Quoting Bible verses, focusing on what I wanted, then shooting the picture, determining what was available, how to receive it, what to do with it after I got it etc., knowing to whom the Bible was addressed, the fact that 4 were crucified with Jesus, were of no value. Neither was being smug in knowing that I knew the rightly divided Word, and that I was a graduate of The Way Corps etc. all were hollow. Being led to the one who carried my sin, crying like a baby while I repented of my sin, and then receiving his acceptance and true love were what delivered me. Vince Finnegan had a similar testimony. He said that after he left twi he felt heavy. His dilemma was "if God so loved the world, then why do I so hate it"? I can't remember his exact words; I had brief exposure to his group, but he described an emotional (not out of control) segment of time where he felt "washed". I've had times where I cried about stuff. I guess I never felt obligated to tell twi people about EVERYTHING going thru my head. None of their business.

I don't need a hair dresser if I don't have hair, and I don't need to "wake up" if I'm already awake.

quote: On page 18 of PFAL, VP says, " I promised the Father that if He would forgive me, as long as I lived I would never preach a negative sermon, I would never condemn anybody." This is one way that you and some others consistently misrepresent me. I don't believe everything VP said was God breathed. Why do you act as if I automatically do? VPs strategy with the way corps seemed to be like this: he would teach you pretty much all he knew about any biblical topic. But the flip side was, that he would hold you more accountable also. The alcoholic was a feeble individual, who needed more love than the average person. VP realized that his sermon was counter productive. He wasn't condemning John Nace or the way corps, he was 'upbraiding them with their unbelief and hardness of heart' (as he saw it) just as Jesus did with his 'way corps' so to speak, in Mark 16:14. I suspect this falls on deaf ears, however. You are as anti way brained as you accuse me of being way brained. quote: And once again I'll ask: your claim is everyone has an agenda, what's yours? You've been reading it for 3 1/2 months. By my definition, an agenda is a biproduct of anyone's belief system. The belief system is 'fixed' the agenda is 'adjustable'. Your agenda is to deconstruct twi any which way you can. By comparison, mine is to pick my battles and disagree with yours. If you believe twi did evil to you, then just stick to your guns. I'm not really trying to sell pfal to anybody; you already know pfal. The links you posted really did come off to me like self pitying excuses. The first step to getting out of that (as IF that's what you want to do) is to recognize that. You wanted my opinion or you wouldn't have posted those links. Others here do not blame God. They have connected with Him in other groups. Broken arrow, Geisha, even Kris Skedgell goes to a church. You seem to have the attitude of 'screw all of it'. Friend you look worn, like your heart has been torn. People may be fickle, but God is faithful.

quote: also, Quote Socrates: I think you are still blaming God for having "failed you". That's why you don't get results and I do. that, to me, was a very wayfer like thing to say I was just being honest. I read both the links he posted on #29 of 'asking your opinion. Sounded like a bunch of self pitying excuses for why the word doesn't work. I guess even wayfers can still get some things right. -- quote: to me, hurting people is not god like or christ like Was Jesus being christ like in Matt. 23 when he repeatedly said woe unto you scribes and pharisees hypocrites and serpents and generation of vipers? Right there in the temple where everybody could hear him? We were discussing something and Socrates tone was just as confrontational as mine. quote: i mean,you might hurt someone unintentionally but if you do you (if you're normal) say you are sorry To everything there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven. This includes a time to break down and a time to build up. Don't you ever confront your son about what he says? Doesn't it hurt his feelings sometimes? quote: but to me, sticking up for your dogma, doctrine, etc., has nothing to do with god or our savior this is my humble opinion Didn't Jesus say "my doctrine is not mine, but His that sent me"? He stuck up for his doctrine all the time. quote: and if telling what happened to me is hurtful to others, like i've been counseled here, it's not because I hurt you You have every right to tell others what happened to you. In a court of law, eyewitness testimony always hurts those who are guilty and the loved ones of those who are guilty. So what? If you're telling the truth, then that shouldn't concern you. I'm not trying to imply that I don't think you're telling the truth, I'm just saying.....

quote: also, Quote Socrates: I think you are still blaming God for having "failed you". That's why you don't get results and I do. that, to me, was a very wayfer like thing to say -- to me, hurting people is not god like or christ like i mean,you might hurt someone unintentionally but if you do you (if you're normal) say you are sorry but to me, sticking up for your dogma, doctrine, etc., has nothing to do with god or our savior this is my humble opinion and if telling what happened to me is hurtful to others, like i've been counseled here, it's not because I hurt you see what i mean? hope you do ps. norm believes i've hurt him tremendously for that i am sorry and i'm sorry for others i have hurt here. i really am My response to this will soon be on the personal soapbox thread. Wouldn't want to be accused of derailing any threads.

Yes, the cat seems to have the upper hand. The dog gets jealous of the cat when I pick her up. I've caught each animal sniffing near the other's rear when the other was asleep. Amazing. We humans need background checks, blood tests, resumes, and the like all because we don't entirely trust each other. All animals need to do is sniff and they have all the info they need. Very efficient.

Yes, the cat seems to have the upper hand. The dog gets jealous of the cat when I pick her up. I've caught each animal sniffing near the other's rear when the other was asleep. Amazing. We humans need background checks, blood tests, resumes, and the like all because we don't entirely trust each other. All animals need to do is sniff and they have all the info they need. Very efficient.

quote: Nothing against John personally, just wish he would stay somewhat relevant. Nothing personal????? Please. Nice rationalization, though.

We replaced our 2 pets 2-3 years ago, but not without some excitement. In Oct. of 2008 our 7 year old cat was behaving weird. Before we could get him to the vet he ran away and never came back. The following month we got a cat off Craig's list. The new cat (Ginger), a female, was glad to eat the food we gave her, but she had antisocial tendencies. Not too violent, but I suspect she had been a stray for a time. When we had her spayed in March of '09 we were told she was probably a year old then. She just wasn't very trusting. AND she could catch mice with amazing skill. The dog we had was a 12 year old male 80 pound lab/chow mix who moved slow. Ginger didn't have to be afraid of Bear (the old dog). In July of '09 we had Bear put down. He wasn't happy, he had arthritis, and we thought it best to put him down. A month later we got another dog, also off Craig's list. This dog is the same age as the cat, a lab/corgi mix, and very hyper. The cat was now VERY concerned. It got to the point that Ginger exiled herself from the main floor of our house. She'd be down the basement during the day and upstairs in one of the kids' rooms at night. This wasn't good, but here's where the success story comes in. I took intro to psychology at the community college in 1983. For the most part, I have no use for psychology, but here they actually helped me. They showed us a film during the semester about a 4 year old boy who was playing with a white stuffed animal when a fire truck rode by the house and made an abrupt LOUD noise. The 4 year old was traumatized to the point that he would freak out whenever he saw a white stuffed animal; he associated the animal with the trauma. They cured the boy progressively. First they gave him a piece of blue plush carpet. He'd play with that for a few days, then a yellow piece of carpet, then a white. Then a blue stuffed animal, then a yellow, and by the time they gave him a white stuffed animal again, he wasn't afraid anymore. I can't give you a case study name or anything like that, but the therapy worked. Recalling this, I tried a kind of similar experiment with our 2 pets. The upstairs in our home is 2 bedrooms, a bathroom and the stairs. When all 4 doors to those things are closed, it creates a 4'x7' room with nothing to hide behind and nothing to jump on top of. So, with help from my daughter, I put the dog up there, then carried the cat up there, closed all the doors, and just set the cat down. The dog was on a short leash so if a fight had broken out, then we could have controlled it not to last more than a second or so. But Ginger's hair stood up and she hissed at him and the dog just looked clueless and curious. They got as close as a foot away from each other.We let them "interact" for about a minute, then I scooped up the cat and got her out of there. I was prepared to do this once every day as long as it took. I did it the next day and after that Ginger started using the main floor of the house without being forced and they are comfortable to this day. Whew. I've come up with ideas like that which did not work. This one did, yay.

This is a continuation of my input on the 'asking your opinion' thread. I want to talk about the concept of "derailing" threads, since this is such a sensitive issue for some. First... quote: Every post comes from a belief system, an agenda, and opinions and observations. If I start a thread called 'connect' and my first post presumes that the pfal series is legitimate Christian teaching, then for someone to dispute that, they may feel the need to establish their OWN belief system/agenda before giving their opinions and observations. This does not constitute derailing a thread. It has the potential to expound on a side point which may require many posts before resuming continuity, but it isn't a deliberate derail. We all do this to an extent. I stand by this. I used my 'connect' thread as an example because I could have easily accused, say, Tbone of "derailing" the thread. His post on page 1 disagrees with my premise that the pfal series is legitimate Christian teaching, and he gives the reader a scope of his own belief system and agenda before giving his opinions. I don't agree with some of his opinions, but he was NOT trying to derail the thread. Neither am I on other threads. quote: So let me ask you directly - why do you refuse to answer questions and instead feel the need to teach everyone around here? Do you think we don't know scriptures, aren't Christian, or what? What are your conclusions regarding the people on GSC? There's plenty of people on here that were in TWI longer than yourself, did more in the organization, took more classes, taught more, etc. This quote is from Chockfull on the 'asking your opinion' thread. Am I supposed to not answer his question because it's off topic? One could argue that my post scolding those who falsely accused my of sending that message to Excie was provocative. I thought something was merited. I guess you catch more flies with honey, eh? The idea of "derailing" threads reminded me of a thread on Waydale 11 years ago. Can't remember the thread title, but it was going along and someone used the word 'duel' figuratively making their point. Then someone else went from the word 'duel' to the late actor Peter Deuel, who was in 2 TV shows in the 60s (Love on the rooftop, w/Judy Carne, and Alias Smith and Jones) before taking his own life in 1972. So then we get 20 or 30 posts about Peter Deuel, mixed with objection from whoever started the thread, leading to viscious name calling between 2 posters. By then there were 120 or so posts; Extwi (Paul Allen) ended up deleting more than one third of the posts on that thread. Now THAT is a derail. Anybody else remember that one? Look at all the threads on About the way that I HAVEN'T posted on. I'm really not here to start fights; I'm just giving my opinion. Actually, I think my opinions reenforce to many of you why you have distanced yourselves from twi. That's not a bad thing, is it? For example, Geisha doesn't really expect me to change my mind about anything. She uses my posts as an excuse to voice her own opinions to everybody else. She has been posting since 2008. I haven't read any past threads where she has discussed her specific beliefs about Christ without me in the mix. Her beliefs seem to be what I would call extremely fundamentalist; more so than most GSers who are still Christian. Perhaps her input with those posters has run its course. She has nothing new to say to them, unless...HEY! Johniam is here! I can post my opinions to HIM! I don't have a problem with posters doing that. That's another thing I think we all do to an extent. But Abigail is right. If my opinions are forced out of here then it's a closed system, and the other side of the story has become the ONLY side of the story.

Wait a minute. Paw, are you talking about just the post where I named 3 other posters and scolded them for wrongly accusing me?

I dunno, I never thought of God as a principle. Receive retain release. That's a principle, but I've always thought that God wants us to pour out our hearts before Him; snuggle up to Him, if you will. I admit that back in the day I totally bought the "committed beyond your lifetime" stuff. You just don't leave God's ministry. But people gotta be where they get their needs met; where they're blessed. I rejoice that God comforted your heart. I've been a Christian just about 35 years now, yet I don't pray as if God owes me anything. Every day of life is a gift. I've had just over 20,000 of them. There's always something to be thankful about. I have an acquaintance whose experience may be similar to yours. He was in the way corps, married a 9th corps woman, then stopped going to the offshoot fellowship I went to 10 years ago. All I heard was that he'd joined a "Jesus church". Next thing I hear is he and his wife were divorcing. She sold off and gave away a lot of stuff of their's. We got a huge tent free. In 2005 we went to the Grand Canyon. I tried to set up the tent but with no written instructions I couldn't figure out how to get it up, so I called this guy and asked him to come over and show me how to set it up and that he could name his price. All he wanted in return was to be able to talk to us about his current situation. He said he could talk to Jesus and the first thing he said to him was "I'm not a devil spirit". Nothing about Jesus being God. Nothing about twi being evil. Just that he liked what he was into now, even though it cost him his marriage. He left an email address and asked if he could have the tent after we got back from the Grand Canyon. He was never consulted about her giving stuff away. I looked up the tent company's website and found that a brand new tent that size would cost $350.00. I concluded that he should have had first right of refusal regarding the tent and gave it to him. Haven't seen him since, but the talk was pleasant. As I say, if my situation isn't broken, then why should I try to fix it? But I wouldn't be afraid to call this guy again, or even join a church if things changed.

quote: johniam, If you are going to incite, like you did before, then your welcome will wear thin quickly. We are not in grade school, He/She hit me so I had to hit them back. Take the high road Pawtucket, have you seen any of the threads I've posted on over the last 3 1/2 months? Took you long enough. Yeah, whatever, it's all my fault, isn't it?

Socrates: I think you are still blaming God for having "failed you". That's why you don't get results and I do. Twinky: Chockfull asked me a question and I answered it. My PM is not active. Excie's last post on page 1 seems to indicate satisfaction with the input she got. Why must you make a problem where there isn't one?

quote: So let me ask you directly - why do you refuse to answer questions and instead feel the need to teach everyone around here? Do you think we don't know scriptures, aren't Christian, or what? What are your conclusions regarding the people on GSC? There's plenty of people on here that were in TWI longer than yourself, did more in the organization, took more classes, taught more, etc. The need to teach everyone around here is a biproduct of what I believe. As I see it, the conflict here is, as I posted earlier this week somewhere, that most of you believe that pfal et al could not possibly be the word of God becauser VP wasn't perfect. I disagree. Jesus didn't answer all questions. Some questions you just know where they're going and why mess with it? But this brings up a relevant point. Every post comes from a belief system, an agenda, and opinions and observations. If I start a thread called 'connect' and my first post presumes that the pfal series is legitimate Christian teaching, then for someone to dispute that, they may feel the need to establish their OWN belief system/agenda before giving their opinions and observations. This does not constitute derailing a thread. It has the potential to expound on a side point which may require many posts before resuming continuity, but it isn't a deliberate derail. We all do this to an extent. My conclusions regarding people at GSC are incomplete, yet specific. Most if not all people here have had issues with twi and need to get it out. They need to tell the rude truth they could never tell while in twi. But, IMO, many here have thrown out the baby with the bath water. It doesn't matter WHO speaks God's word, as long as it's God's word. All the immutable things of God in Christ are still good. Eternal life, incorruptible seed, peace, grace, mercy, love, the family of God, all of this is still available. God is still God! Many of you don't get that. I don't know what else to say.

This is a fine example of why I get really F'ing sick of your moral superiority. I'm specifically referring to Twinky, Chockfull, and Waysider so far. Your first thought was, it HAS to be Johniam. Well, you're all WRONG!!! You're all on a witch hunt! You're all the fine upstanding citizens of Salem, MA a few hundred years ago reincarnated. How does it feel? Excathedra: actually, I don't think you overdo mentioning VP. I haven't read all 20 million of your posts, but you really don't bring it up all the time that I can see. quote: What's important is to live another day to tell the story, learn from it and move forward. You're doing that otherwise you would have blown your brains out years ago - some do that. Amen. What VP did hasn't stopped you from being married, and having a cheerful disposition on GSC. I think most of us admire you for that in spite of disagreements. I think the phrase "as long as the horse rides" means that what happened to you is relevant in some discussions, but not others. It does sound to me like it was intended as a put down, however.