johniam

quote: To me the bath water when it gets thrown out is dirty bath water. The bad stuff in TWI is the dirty bath water. The Baby to me is Christianity in general. We were trying to be Christians but found out by experience or observation that TWI wasn't what we thought it was. But we were in it because we wanted to be CHRISTIANS and tried to follow Jesus and were attracted by much Bible examination instead of church bingo or guys with boofont hairdos that ended every word with ah. You know, Jesus-ah! I agree with that! The baby is what GOD wrought in Christ. The bathwater is the sum of all human BS...ANYWHERE! I've been posting this for 4 months now. Anybody who claims they can't see it is guilty of very fine tuned selective reasoning. Speaking of babies and bathwater, I have 3 kids. They haven't been babies for awhile, but anybody with kids ever NOT bathe them??? Social workers and other professional people will get involved after awhile. quote: You don't move toward things, you move away. Rather than moving toward pleasure, you life centers around avoiding pain. You avoid answering direct questions because some of the answers may be painful. Your more reactive than proactive. LOL!!! What a crock of....bathwater. You wonder why I don't answer your questions? This reaffirms for me why I think psychiatry/psychology is bogus. quote: Consider what the ministry told us: •This is the absolute truth •Only we have it •We've reached our conclusions through extensive research •This works with a mathematical exactness and a scientific percision •You have to have faith that the things we tell you are true. •If its not working for you its because you don't have enough faith You must've been hearing voices; the ministry never told ME that.

I think VPs logic is fine.

whoops (double post)

I suspect that twi's recruitment of celebrities was OBVIOUS to the point it turned them off. Let's see...there was football player Tony Collins, baseball player Tony Phillips, hockey player Jim Schoenfeld, plus even Skip and Dave G. had pro experience on their resumes. I even heard that Ralph D. was undershepherding Eldridge Cleaver through the class. At some point it must become obvious that these celebrities were being used as props; not cared for as individuals. That had to factor into why HG left ABRUPTLY. In the world, celebrities are recruited into causes, like scientology, the environment, gay rights, etc. I suspect that sitting senator Al Franken had a lot to do with getting the Grateful Dead to help promote Obama during his campaign in '08. Franken and his then comic partner Tom Davis appear on at least 2 Grateful Dead videos. TWI is probably still desperate for anything that will up their credibility.

quote: Guess that ties to the supposition held by VPW that the word fit with mathematical precision? I never read Bullinger's Numbers in scripture; I'm just familiar with 2 meaning either division or establishment, 4 meaning the world, 5 meaning grace, etc. That's like putting salt, pepper, hot sauce, or whatever on your food. Might make it taste better for you, but the food is what gives the nourishment, not the condiments...I HOPE!!!! IMO math is the purest form of logic. If a=c and b=c, then a=b. In my 9th grade algebra class this was called the 'closure' property. If the bible really is God's word, then IMO it has to be logical. The trinity is not logical when compared with many scriptures. Neither is ADAN. That's what VP was setting us up for with that statement. That's not the same thing as numbers in scripture. Does Bullinger say anything about mathematical exactness and scientific precision in that book? BTW Socrates, I can hear your footsteps already. I recall fairly recently you said (disputing) if apples equal fruit and oranges equal fruit, then apples equal oranges. Apples are A fruit, not ALL fruit, therefore apples don't EQUAL fruit, neither do oranges. In math, if 2+2=4 and 1+3=4, then 2+2=1+3. Vp said God breathed = moved by the holy ghost, which = revelation. Certainly open for debate, but not "glaring error".

OK let me see what other ways I can express "throw out the baby with the bathwater".... throw out the pearl with the oyster throw out the chewy caramel center with the tootsie roll pop I dunno, at least baby and bathwater constitute 'aliteration', a proven literary technique. I also think the phrase implies that the throwing out of the baby is caused by a knee jerk reaction to the bathwater. Aughhh! Bathwater! Whoosh! Whew! Not realizing hey, where's the baby? Tripped out? The only documentation I can recall is in the way living in love where Walter Cummins says to Elena Whiteside that John Mark from Acts had tripped out. The guy who went not with them to the work of the ministry or whatever. WW, when you said aren't they permitted to think for themselves, don't tell me that wasn't condescending. Socrates, you don't have a clue what my "chosen belief system" is. I was in twi for 18 years and I never DID buy that "it's your believing" crap. Somebody told me that Vince Finnegan's dad died in a construction accident. The person said "that's where his believing was at". That person was my twig leader at the time and I didn't feel comfortable arguing with him, but, eww, someone DIES and that's how their last days are assessed? That's where his believing was at? Didn't buy it then, don't buy it now. Did you believe EVERYTHING you were ever told in twi? You have a press card?

I wondered because I used to get increasingly annoyed when LCM would predictably use numbers in scripture to support his theories. It got to the point where you got the feeling that numbers in scripture was more proof of the rightly divided word than anything else. That got old fast. He did that a lot to give athletes of the spirit credibility. So it seemed plausible that math based forensics could help solve some crimes, but perhaps not like it does on that show. Interesting.

quote: Instead of trying to bully him into silence, maybe you should have asked him for clearification? I think he was trying to bully me (and by association, Tony) into silence. The self appointed damage control czar at it again. For many here, the other side of the story has become the ONLY side of the story, and when Tony makes an honest observation like "why are there so many tripped out Christians here?" this is a problem. He has what? 30 posts? WWs message was very clear.

quote: I have a major in math, / So where do we go from here. I have twenty years experience in electronics and electronic repair.. a *real* four year degree in *almost* computational mathematics, and beyond. four semesters experience, teaching intermediate algebra. / the "core curriculum" usually is worth four credits per class. Calculus I, II, III, makes up about 12 credits. then there is Linear Algebra, Differential equations. Aha! You ARE a math freak! No, I didn't say 'meth' freak. On post #412 of the 'Victoid's ministry' thread, Ham, you said stuff about prime numbers. On post #420, I responded with.... quote: quote: then in mathematical terms.. if I survive past teen years, I must be doing pretty good.. OK, I think I follow you. 53 is the 17th prime, then 59, 61, and that means 67 would be the 20th...past teen years. Remember, 68 was VPs age at death. I've wondered about the significance of prime numbers off and on myself. One time I figured out every prime number from 0 to 1,000. I was expecting that after the number 100 that the number of prime numbers would drop off...that there would be less likelihood of numbers being only divisible by 1 and themselves...the higher the numbers got, but NO! There are 170 prime numbers between 0 and 1,000. There are 23 between 0 and 100, but 5 of those are in the first 10. After 10 all prime numbers must end in 1,3,7,or9. As an asst mgr for a fast food chain in the 80s one of my duties was to take a huge sales reading and reconcile the numbers with sales projections for that date and day of the week. To do this I stuck the key in the manager register and hit 601 enter. Then for the next 5-10 minutes this huge tape of sales readings and statistics for the previous day would spit out of the register. Moot now that it's the digital age, but 601 happens to be a prime number. I wondered if that was why or part of why they chose that number. Who knows? You didn't respond. I am curious if you ever watched that recent cop show called 'Numbers' and if so, what you thought of it.

quote: In other news, why do all the people who object to the GSC all use THE SAME LANGUAGE? There's always this obsession with infants in a tub. EVERY FREAKING TIME someone doesn't like us, they mention a baby, and bathwater, and a few other things, and that's about all they say. It's like they're all reading from a short script or something. Aren't any of you permitted to think for yourselves? I mean, if we got the same complaints, I'd expect them to use different phrases to make them. Why do all the people who type in English all use the same language? Every time they need to use a definite article they use the word 'the'. That's the only word they use! Aren't they permitted to think for themselves? The English language must be for hillbillies, I guess. You'd think a legitimate language would have at least 50 definite articles in it. It's called LANGUAGE! If you communicate to others in a LANGUAGE, then you must use the proper words of the LANGUAGE! Most people think babies are valuable; those same people think that bathwater is expendable. The reason a cliche is a cliche is because it's true. If you can think of a better way to communicate "throw out the baby with the bathwater" then have at it. If you can think of a better definite article than 'the' have at that, too.

I agree. Some here HAVE thrown out the baby with the bath water. I get into many arguments with people along those lines, yet if I walked a mile in their shoes....so I can't totally fault them. I left twi in 1994. Since doing that I've been exposed to 4 different twi spinoffs plus for a year or so my family attended a Presbyterian church, which wasn't so bad. Currently I attend a fellowship which is similar to the best of times in twi, yet, refreshingly absent the verbal abuse that kept getting worse and worse in twi, especially after 1989 or so. Some people here feel betrayed. Some were sexually abused. Those folks got sick of being told all the time just renew your mind. People just need to get that stuff out.

quote: .......interesting to think about all those commune groups popping up across the country from 1968-1973. On a quest to find God, to meditate, to isolate from society. Looking back, it is amazing to see all the parallels. During the 80s I came across info about the Oneida colony, a commune started in 1848 by a guy who believed Christ had already returned. They had weird sexual beliefs, including complex marriage and the complete withholding of male orgasm (?). They made silverware too, and when the thing dissolved in 1881 all assets went into the silverware company, which still exists. There's several wikipedia articles on it. I guess the desire to withdraw from mainstream society is not new.

quote: The basis of all this hysteria is the New Madrid fault, running near St. Louis. They've been predicting an earthquake along it since the early 90s. No talk of this to speak of here in STL. Most folks are concerned about flooding here and there. Wouldn't want to be up in the arch if that did happen though.

quote: He's got some balls using this salt covenant thing in the first place. I remember being taught how serious it was. Give me a BREAK! Rosalie talked casually one morning before our weekly cabinet meeting about how much more the consequences are for people who break the salt covenant versus not being corps and leaving the ministry. I dunno, the hardest consequence for me is decompressing from years of being salted to an abusive cult. Interesting that twi taught that water baptism was just a physical ceremonial ritual that had no impact on being born again, yet, somehow the salt covenant, also a physical ritual, issued in major "consequences" if broken. During my wedding ceremony the reverend who married us said we had asked to do the salt covenant. Neither of us asked him to do that. By then I guess it was implied that if you wanted a twi clergyman to do your wedding you did the salt covenant. IMO it added about 1 minute of time to the ceremony. Didn't add or subtract to our marriage whatsoever.

Speaking of the advanced class, does anybody know if LCM redid it? Did they use VPs? I mean after 1994. I remember for awhile they used Earl Burton's intermediate class, then went back to VPs. I assume LCM used VPs.

Thank you very much! Mystic, CT; must be the same Mystic, CT that once had hamburger all over the highway, says Firesign theatre. My mom once made the word 'quahog' in scrabble. Didn't challenge her, but never knew what a quahog was. Definitely not livestock. Thanks again.

quote: The new and improved way international was all about planning the adversary out of your life. Sounds like they effectively planned GOD out of their lives.

My family and I will be vacationing in New England in August. Be there for about a week. Will be visiting family I haven't seen in 16 years. Why bring this up? This is kind of a vain thing, but, I've been in 46 states. One of the 4 I haven't been in is Rhode Island. I'll be staying maybe 2 hours away. Be a shame to get that close and not go there. Now, I can get any info I want off the internet, but some of you guys are local, or at least, in the area. There's got to be something about RI that you personally just think is cool. THAT's what I'm wondering about. A beach? A mansion or castle that can be toured? A seafood restaurant? Anything that would justify a half day's excursion. I would appreciate any info, thanks.

quote: God did chose an imperfect mode of communication, using language.....to impart His perfect will. What is up with that? Language is neither perfect nor imperfect; it's a tool. People are imperfect. God is perfect. For instance... For God so loved the world. That is a perfect thought. No? The language is what it is; 'Chose' is the past tense word; 'choose' is present tense. You seem to do the same thing with 'lead' and 'led'. That's not the language's fault; it's yours. The on the spot reporters have had many breaking stories about my failure to properly use the quote function or whatever. Again, that's not the quote function's fault; it's mine. Ye shall not surely die. That is not a perfect thought.

quote: Then why bother to have this discussion? Yes, we get back to that old bugaboo, what's your agenda? quote: So, then, what's your point in being involved in discussion other than to push your private agenda? You guys are the last people who should finger point about an agenda. Yours is so obvious that it can be seen from space. You are the on the spot reporters waiting for any breaking story about Johniam. Must be a slow news day.

Excathedra: This can be a good lead in to teaching him about the reality of death. I can't think of anything in life that ages people as fast as the death of a loved one. My whole generation got exposed to death when Kennedy got killed. Perhaps your husband would be the one to have a talk with him about it.

Funny. I thought I supposedly had the copyright on derailing threads. There is a deathbed account in scripture: Jacob's in Gen. chapter 49. No sign of him changing his mind about anything. Some very confrontational stuff, however, plus a prophecy about Judah being the tribe Christ comes from.

quote: I don't really believe Penworks post was a challenge to debate, but, rather to discuss, and this is after all, a discussion forum. Geisha, remember the first thing Penworks said to me was that she thought I had my mind made up, and she is right, I do. Her pov includes premises just like mine. What I posted is how far I'm willing to go in that direction on that topic. I wasn't putting her down. Would I learn something if I read those references she spoke of? Sure. But do I HAVE to? Keep in mind, also, that VP chose his set of premises AFTER having been in seminary and being exposed to some or all of the same considerations Penworks has brought up. We're not robots; we all have to decide what to keep and what to discard. VP taught no private interpretation, but, IMO, it isn't humanly possible to be interested in the bible and to process it verse by verse or word by word WITHOUT speculating here and there what something might mean. That's private interpretation, isn't it? The first time I read the book of Job I felt like I was reading a good mystery story. Who was right? Job? The 3 friends? What about the 4th guy? Quite the boatload of controversy, eh? God gets involved, He reproves Job, yet Job passed God's 'smell test' better than the 3 friends. But God says nothing to or about the 4th guy. Much debate potential here. Some say the 4th guy was born of the wrong seed. Some say he did well; that he pointed Job back to God rather than focus on Job's sins, like the 3 friends did. Who can tell? I think God WANTS people to try to think critically about stuff like that. I kind of think that's what Penworks is doing. I have no problem with that. I merely choose not to investigate further at this time.

Hmm. Perhaps an old dog can teach itself new tricks.

quote: Expand your horizons, John. First, do some research on abuser/abusee situations. And then think what practical help you could offer. Quoting scripture verses just won't cut it. Quoting scripture was not intended to help anybody; it was to give my perspective...where I'M coming from. IMO the most practical help anybody can give is to just be honest. Nobody knows everything about everything. I think much of the reason you guys have cut me this much slack is because I shoot from the hip. Bull in a china shop? Sometimes, but I'm really not just here to be inflammatory. BTW, did you know that David Byrne, lead singer of Talking Heads, was diagnosed with Aspergers when he was 12? I saw a video on Youtube of him singing that song 'Once in a lifetime'. Even my daughter thought it was funny. "Same as it ever was....(bonks himself on the head)".