johniam

quote: keith gardner i feel like i remember you and your wife. were you in the 11th or possibly 10th There was a Keith Hinegarner in the 10th WC. His wife's name is Donna. BTW thanks for the info you gave me about David Hogshead; I called him and he was very nice. Possibly moot now, but I met Cliff Adelman not quite 2 years ago. He gave me this... cliff@adelman.com - He repairs instruments now so it might be a business, but if it's still good you should be able to contact him.

quote: JAL, above all things, loves to hear the cheer of the crowd. He'll do whatever it takes to get it. That's my opinion, anyway. Similarities between JL and Paul. Both were serving God as best as they knew. Both changed their minds about certain things. Paul didn't start his ministry until 14 years after his conversion. Paul spoke to a different audience as well (Gentiles instead of Jews). JL changed his mind about the law of believing in what? 1988? I'm sure Paul liked the cheering of the crowd, too. This analogy is probably a 50% match, but still relevant IMO. quote: They must be in a serious state of denial, then, because it was VP who taught them this "law of believing" in the first place. JL made a very clear distinction on the video between what is true about believing and what is false, yet you stubbornly put it all in the same box of "law of believing". At least someone who is in denial doesn't have their head buried in the sand.

quote: This may seem like a snotty question but I've always wondered.. why was it Jesus' resurrected body still had the hole in the side where he got the spear? You know.. where Thomas thrust his hand? And the nail prints? Some body. Hmmph! If Jesus could change his form so that he wasn't recognizable to the two on the road to Emmaeus, then instantly disappear and be back with the disciples behind closed doors seven miles away, then I'm sure it wouldn't be a problem for him to again change his form to display wounds he endured on the tree. Digital technology. Indeed, some body! You don't want one of those? quote: Not that it is going to matter to you what I say ....but.....Jesus said it would have been better for Judas if he had never been born. If Jesus didn't forgive Judas, then why was Judas there right to the end? Jesus knew that Judas would betray him. What do you think would have happened if Jesus would have stood up during the last supper and said, "Hey, guys! I hate to tell you this, but Judas Iscariot here, is planning to betray me. He's going to take 30 pieces of silver from the high priest for showing them how they can arrest me. What's up, Judas?" What do you think would have happened? I can just see Peter saying "Damn you, Judas, I KNEW you were screwy! C'mon guys, let's rearrange his face". Nothing was stopping Jesus from doing that. He apparently also knew that Judas would kill himself. He gave Judas every chance to cancel his plans to betray him; he also gave Judas every chance to not kill himself. Just a quick question, Geisha. If it's OK for Jesus to say of Judas, a grown adult, it would have been better if he had never been born, then why isn't it OK for a woman with an unwanted pregnancy to do the same?

quote: So what are you trying to say Jesus was saying there? He said nothing per that verse; just the simple fact that Judas was still there proves that Jesus had forgiven him and Judas would have SIT on the day of Pentecost with the others if he hadn't killed himself.

quote: Do you think Jesus Christ in his resurrected body might have a few things to say about that at the return or awards stand or wherever? Yes, I do. 1 Cor. 15:4,5 - and that he was buried and that he rose again according to the scriptures; and that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve. This was after the resurrection but well before Pentecost. Matthias hadn't been selected yet. Judas Iscariot was there. Jesus, in his resurrected body, had forgiven Judas. I think we should all be thankful that God is more forgiving than we are.

May 21st is a Saturday. I went down to the mountain, I was drinking some wine I looked up into heaven, Lord, I saw a mighty sign Writ in fire across the heaven, plain as black and white Get prepared, there's gonna be a party tonight Uh-huh, hey, Saturday night One more Saturday night Hey, Saturday night. Reminds me of 1982, or whenever the planets were supposed to all line up. This was supposed to cause major destruction to the earth. So one of my friend's work buddies threw a 'going away party'. We'll see.

What is this about JL kicking babies? I remember him punching a teddy bear, but nothing about kicking babies. As for the 'believing in reverse', in 1984/85 I used to get the tape of the month, and once it was Walter Cummins. Long teaching. He said there was a difference between what he called 'natural fear' which was good, and destructive fear, which was bad. The destructive fear was what got people bad results, but the natural fear included, let's say, you're driving while tired and you start to nod off and before your car leaves its lane you wake up and BAM you have a surge of adrenaline that wakes you up even stronger. That was an example of a good kind of fear per WC. That was back before VP died. I think a lot of people knew that pfal despite its 34 hours still left a lot of unfilled in blanks about stuff like this. Those people just navigated their way through it without letting it bother them. The worst stories I heard in twi had people die because they weren't "believing", but it didn't take much to extend that into people dying because their lives were "contaminated" (the plane crash that Donna M was yelling about).

quote: School yard bully could be another example. Society honors him and shuns the nerd. The bully might goad the nerd into doing his homework, and then take is lunch money. But the bully is needed to win sports games. He is above rules that apply to others. Was VPW a bully? Did society value him over others? There's no happy ending for this. Yes, people who don't belong in jail go there and people who do don't. Sometimes it's as simple as the school yard bully situation and sometimes it's not. I'm keeping one eye on the Rod Blagoiavicz (sp) trial #2. As governor of Illinois, he tried to sell Obama's vacant senate seat to the highest bidder. Feds have been investigating him for years. They have him on tape calling Obama a MF as well as other things. He's acting cocky. Sure looks guilty to me. SOMEBODY is trying to get him off other than his lawyer. Who knows how that's going to turn out? The guy looks like Bobby Goldsboro with his hair dyed.

Bout time.

quote: Law is totally inept for producing goodness and godliness. This is why Jesus Christ came, to inspire, teach and enable us to love and truly good works. This reminds me of when Jesus said it's not what you put in your mouth that defiles you; it's what comes out of your mouth. VP defined law as a command to do something or refrain from doing something issued by a competent authority according to jurisprudence. (apparently thou shalt not commit adultery and thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife aren't competent enough) Even though the laws Moses wrote down originated from God, they were in the hands of people to enforce. In the same writing VP said justice is usually fraught with error. I know that people end up in prison who shouldn't. If it was me I'd just pray a lot. What else could I do? The guy I referred to who got sentenced to 18 years? The 18 years part is up for debate, but he did something very serious (not sexual). Most people just somehow figure out how to stay out of trouble. Especially people who have families. I posted earlier that if I hadn't got into twi that I probably would have spent my adult life in and out of prison. I was already involved in a criminal activity; drugs. I already had 2 arrests for that. Odds are I would have had a third at some point. Maybe a fourth. TWI, for all its faults, gave me a support system. Once I went wow, I was with twi people 24/7. For years. That was all I needed to break free from the drug crowd. From that viewpoint I firmly believe that anybody can make their own luck.

quote: You stated your position as being that hard work and determination are all that is needed to succeed in this life, that if someone should find themself incarcerated, it's their own fault. That is the position I refuted. I posted no such thing. quote: ...black males are incarcerated at a 6 times higher rate then white males This reminds me of a Richard Pryor routine. He and Gene Wilder did that movie Bustin' Loose at a prison in AZ. So Richard was wondering why, since there are no black people to speak of in AZ, then why are there 20,000 of them in this prison? What is wrong with this picture? Then he talked to some of the prisoners. One conversation went like this... RP: What are you in for? Prisoner: I killed my family. RP: What for? Prisoner: Dey was home. After a few conversations like this RP decided he was GLAD there were penitentiaries for these MFs. I said life isn't always fair.

At first when I saw this emoticon I didn't see it as someone clapping; I saw it as someone foaming at the mouth.

Very interesting. OK, he's condescending, he's a 13 dollar bill, he's a wanna be cult leader...nobody seems to want to deal with his actual message. Haven't had any dealings with his group. It was good to hear him talk again. Reminds me of back in the day. What I find interesting is that, having dealt with 4 other twi spinoffs, I conclude... 1) Vince Finnegan's Christian Biblical Counsel - don't recall anything specific about the law of believing, but since Vince rejects much of what VP taught, I'm guessing that applies here as well. 2) John Shroyer's Christian Family Fellowship Ministries - again, don't recall anything about the law of believing, but never took their class (wasn't done yet). This group seems to track much more with VP but don't know what they teach about the law of believing. 3) John Hendricks' Christian Research and Fellowship - definitely promotes the law of believing per VP. One of his collaterals uses an example of the law of believing that parallels the mother whose little boy was hit and killed by a car. JHs example is a pimply faced kid from his youth who had no trouble scoring with women juxtaposed with a handsome guy who had fear that affected all his relationships. 4) Chris Geer's Word Promotions - makes the same distinction JL just made: that our minds don't control the universe. That if that were true, then, as John Jeudes says, no God needed. BUT! IF God has given His word in a situation, THEN we can believe and act with the expectation of success. I liked that JL said there's no way to disprove that you had doubt if someone says you weren't believing. That DOES make it ridiculous. There's also no way to prove God gave you revelation if you say you WERE believing something. That part of it is a stalemate. I can't even prove that the God I believe in exists, but nobody else can prove He doesn't exist.

Propaganda? I know a man who was just sentenced to 18 years in prison. He is 54 years old. I've known him for over 30 years. Yes, he's a believer. Was a twig coordinator, wow, AC grad, has 3 children of his own. Down on his luck? Sure. Aren't we all. This thread isn't really about people going to prison; it's about people who don't go to prison. Life isn't always fair. At least, THIS life isn't always fair. I have hope of a life beyond this life. You?

The phrase 'down on their luck' implies that these people are somehow not responsible for their actions. quote: "bad decisions" can be construed as "not as crafty or refined as vpw" or "less resources at their disposal than those who get away with it" Again, somehow not responsible for their actions just because others can afford better lawyers. Not buying it. quote: (down on luck could mean a mental handicap that is not recognized by the system yet . . . or a language barrier . . . racism etc.) Again, somehow not responsible for their actions because others aren't targets of racism. Being responsible for your own actions is for YOU, not society. If YOU take responsibility for your own actions, then you will be in a much better position to make your own luck, like Joseph did. He was sold into slavery by his bretheren, didn't speak Egyptian, wasn't from Egypt. But he made his own luck by trusting God. You didn't want to hear that, did you?

Had 5 of 'em go through STL on good Friday night. One of which missed my house by a block. Lost our power for 2 days, and several buildings were damaged, including the airport which was totally closed down for a couple of days, but no loss of life.

Will do. Congratulations!

quote: Jesus gave His followers a particularly chilling warning when He said ....."Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!' That is actually the opposite of . . . the Body of Christ is in all who confess His Name and believe God raised Him from the dead. . . isn't it? The great mystery had not yet been revealed when Jesus said that stuff. That would be the one body of Christ. THAT great mystery. The one that had not been revealed to the sons of men. That includes Jesus. Remember, God was baiting a trap for the devil. He took the bait, too.

quote: I'd like to hear some viewpoints from people who weren't "raised in The Word ™" as to why you took the foundational class, and why you stayed afterwards. Were there warning signs in the class that you ignored? And which class was your foundational class? I definitely was not raised in the word. Had a flippant attitude toward religion in general. Much of that was based on the other kids on my street. Not much religious discussion, but I KNEW they weren't any 'holier' than I was. Took the foundational class for the same basic reason I did pot for the first time: I trusted the person(s) who turned me on to it. The guy who got me in the word I'd known for years. We both played guitar. I respected him as a person. He seemed to have his life together in ways I didn't, yet he wasn't self righteous about it. He had tried in the past to convince me of the God of the bible, but I spurned him. This time he was taking foundational pfal himself and he was much more bold, yet, again, without being self righteous about it. At that time my thoughts often had a dilemma; on the one hand, there must be something about the bible worth knowing otherwise why is it still here, but on the other hand, I don't want to be like all the religious people I'd met whose lives seemed to be dominated by useless rules. So after talking to the guy who got me into the word I made a bold decision, just between me and God. I would spend 1 year trying to be a Christian, trying my best, following wherever I was led. But if I saw no discernable results, then I would go back to being a non Christian. I think God can work with an attitude like that. "Wherever I was led" began with this guy and the fellowship he was in. Three months later I was in the foundational class. Why did I stay afterward? As said earlier, it had become (and still is) my family. I don't speak for all, but in my case, the spiritual family was much more of a 'rose without thorns' than my earthly family ever was. Still true today. Warning signs? This implies that there was something to be warned about. To me, this is up for debate. People will always let you down. Even those in your family, earthly, spiritual, or otherwise. I can speak more conclusively about 'warning signs' regarding the time I left twi. During the so called 'fog years' and for 5 years beyond, I gave LCM the benefit of any doubt. But during the time period 1989-1994 the warning signs were from the way we were treated at fellowship. It just wasn't as loving anymore. I wasn't an individual who needed to give and receive love now, as much as I was now a renewed mind unit who either "produced for the cause" or didn't. That shift of focus in expectation was the biggest warning sign to me. In 1994, when LCM began the debt purge, homo purge, etc., there was no more doubt to give the benefit of. My first foundational class was $100.00 for both foundational and intermediate in Jan/Feb 1977. Twelve new students, 10 of which finished the class, and it was a film class.

quote: Gender:Male / As the mother of three children Umm.... Oh, wait a minute. OK I get it. Never mind. (my husband's a cop; you wouldn't believe how dirty he gets my clothes)

quote: Prison is full of folks down on their luck. People our society shuns. They don't fit in, so they end up in jail. Our society accepts anybody who has the initiative to make their own luck. Before twi I had 2 arrests for pot. If I had not gotten into twi I think I probably WOULD have spent my adult life in and out of prison. VP once said, "there's a judgement day for newspapers". There's a judgement day for those who despitefully use people as well.

Courtesy patrol??? Are they serious? That sounds LAME! Doesn't sound like it would strike fear in any serial troublemakers. (RUN!!!It's the COURTESY PATROL!!!!) Ought to call them the exterminators or something. I worked bless patrol at the 1986 ROA late at night in tent city. Didn't do very well. Earlier in the evening I kept 2 plastic forks from a food stand. I cut off the handles and smoothed them down so if I put both forks side by side in my mouth it looked like scifi monster teeth. I was paired with a woman. We walked past these 2 guys who were talking excitedly about, believe it or not, the word. One guy was quoting 2 Kings of all places. Then they saw me with those teeth and...HUH! End of conversation. Then a minute or so later a small child saw me and ran to his tent. Aw, man. Hopefully he was safe and secure in his tent knowing the fang teeth bless patrol guy had his back. I dunno. The woman gently persuaded me to save the teeth for halloween. Maybe they ought to put ME on courtesy patrol.

quote: About 2 years ago, from a very reliable source, I heard he was conducting tours around Israel for John Hagee's ministry. J.S. taught O.T. history at HQ a very long time ago. I like John Hagee. JS could be in worse hands. I see JH on TV every so often. He's passionate. Once I caught him talking about being in lover's lane waiting for the urge to merge.

I think the word 'exclusivity' means elitist, as Socks used it, not merely a subset of people with a finite number.

Who exactly was Herb Diamond? Other than taxicab's dad. Was he a reporter? Martin "Lucifer" King? Wow, that's harsh. I do recall someone saying that MLK had the same "spirit of riot" that Demetrius had in Acts 19. Ironically, the guy who said that is black and a WC grad. I think I'll file that one away with "all 4 Beatles are wrong seed".