johniam

quote: In addition, much of what was presented in PFAL, that many have considered to be true, has subsequently been proven to be misinformation, Proven?????? LOL. That's like telling me that music has been proven to not exist...by deaf people, of course. Well, you have your "proof" and I have mine. I can SIT, and that's a fact. People who believe in evolution believe that their beliefs are "factual". More selective reasoning.

David Craley wrote a book called 'In search of the light (the hope of glory)'. This book is about his 'rescue' from homosexuality. He was well off; was familiar with the gay club scene in many large US cities. Even got witnessed to by a guy in a bath. Groucho says he's now openly gay but still Christian. IIRC.

The best thing anyone can do while on earth is to get born again. We're not saved by works, we're saved by grace. We have incorruptible seed. Our eternal relationship with God is not based on "what have you done for God lately"? Helping people who are starving, storm damaged, sick, abused, etc. will do good for this life only. Even LCM used to say it was a good thing that someone was building hospitals, but it wasn't Jesus or his disciples. You could make the argument that people need to be fed, clothed, loved, etc. before they can make a meaningful decision about God and Jesus Christ, but at least wows were honest. They were there to get people into pfal which would get them born again. That's a good thing. I make no apologies for what I believe. quote: Sorry, John, I'm not seeing any "deliverance" in that. You never will.

quote: I think another point to be made here is healing is a gift. 1 Peter 2:24 - ...by whose stripes ye WERE (past tense) healed. You can too claim and demand what belongs to you. I did just that per post #21. Did the devil do that for me?

I know a man here in STL who is black. I'm sure there is just as much variety in Christianity for black churches as there is for white. I don't know how common this man's situation was, but he went to a church where these 6 women called the mothers stood in a circle around him. They had him get down on his hands and knees and they asked him to repeat the words "thank you Jesus" over and over until the holy ghost took over and he spoke in tongues. He did this for 6 hours and while he was doing this those mothers were chanting stuff like YEAH YEAH JESUS COME INTO HIM JESUS YEAH. Then after 6 hours they stopped and said, "he didn't make it". The guy was heart broken. But he got witnessed to in a convenience store by a white girl. He came to a fellowship and after the teaching was over he raved and said he'd been looking for something like this his whole life. He went on to become a branch leader. Great guy. I can't really dispute that many of us were arrogant and complacent as though we had the copyright on God's word. I would only submit that the souls won for the Lord Jesus Christ through twi are every bit as precious as those won by Mother Teresa. I think Jesus was addressing arrogance and complacency when he said there were many lepers in Israel in Naaman's time, but he, a Syrian, got healed and they didn't. And there were many widows in Israel when Elijah had to run away for 3 years, but God sent him to a woman in Sidon, not Israel. There were probably a lot of catholic women who got assignments similar to Mother Teresa as well. A lot of good was done for God by wows.

Cman: If you can't say what it IS, then how can you say what it's NOT? Waysider: I was told that it was Billy Graham's grandfather who said Paul was a sex pervert. Never checked it out; nobody else told me that, but my twig leader, who generally was not given to obsessing about stuff like that, did tell me that in 1979. For what it's worth. For the record, there are other places in scripture where thorns are compared to people, such as the 2 VP quoted (Num33:55, Josh23:13), also 2Sam 23:6. In Matt 7:15,16 Jesus compares thorns to false prophets. Some scriptures indicate that thorns were used as kindling. Something people use to get a fire started, then it's gone good riddance. The devil certainly uses people with no regard for their future. The thorn in the flesh is the messenger of Satan, right? You don't have to be in a 'cult' to hate people.

In 1996 I had a situation. My right thigh had pain. Didn't go to a doctor. Some said it was my sciatic nerve. But I couldn't sit down for longer than 1/2 hour. Didn't affect my job. I had to sit near the rear or near an aisle at teachings. But in August of that year we went to a family camp put on by Vince Finnegan, Glen Post and others at Lake George in NY state. There were tapes you could buy. One such was by Sanghat Baines (sp) on the topic of healing. He kept repeating that healing is a right to the believer; that we can claim it and expect it; that this is OK with God. Usually when I have symptoms of something I pray and take whatever medicine I'm comfortable with (not necessarily in that order). I take Ibuprofin for muscle pain, Aleve for headaches, and coffee and beer for all others. But for something more serious that won't go away, like the pain in my thigh, I have to make decisions. I listened to the Sanghat Baines tape a time or 2 and I was driving to work after a particularly bad day with this pain. I got really po'd while driving and screamed at God in prayer. I wasn't mad at God, just frustrated with the situation. That day was so so, but after that the discomfort seemed to gradually go away. Never been back. If that hadn't happened I'd have eventually gone to a doctor. I see no shame in that or in what I did. Whoever posted that someone by "revelation" stuck their finger down your husband's throat. That's awful; you probably could have sued the person, if not twi for that.

quote: Likewise, correlation does not equal causation. Just because 2 events happen together does not mean one caused the other. More people get frostbite when sales of hot chocolate go up. Does the hot chocolate cause the frostbite? No, the hot chocolate sales go up when the weather gets cold.... Yes, and just because I posted something that doesn't agree with "GSC doctrine" 4 posts before you, in typical fashion, post a venemous response to it without reasonable provocation, doesn't mean that the 2 are related. Just a coincidence.

I can't add much here; I've never been a prof qual ANYTHING. But don't give up. I'm sure something will come along. Always darkest before the dawn, eh?

Jesus did tell the young rich guy to sell all he had and take up his cross and follow Jesus. This guy needed healing of a different sort. That book 'the Rescue' by Dennis McGee had a guy who was crippled get his healing when he jumped in a river to prevent someone else from drowning. Job got his deliverance when he prayed for his 3 friends. Most sports rehab involves progressive physical exercise. I agree that the sick need love. Without that everything else isn't going to be near as effective. According to that long presentation at ROA '77, Howard Allen got his healing after all else failed, all else included home remedies, much medical attention, much prayer, and much discouragement when it looked like HA would remain in a semi vegetative state for the rest of his life. His marbles started to come back to him after they just sat him at his office desk for hours a day over 2 weeks or so. A place where he would be reminded of work. Interesting.

There was a recent movie called 'Sunshine cleaning' about 2 women who made a living cleaning residences of recently deceased people. Maybe they could expand and promise post rapture cleaning. Non refundable, of course.

quote: I think my group could have used a little of something. I encountered the peculiar attitude in TWI that no matter how badly you were treated, it was still a privilege to be allowed to associate with them. Sometimes they would do things that even they seemed to have trouble stomaching and they would reassure each other with phrases like "The Word isn't always nice." and "No one said the Truth is easy". I remember when the Martindale scandal broke, we had an "emergency" meeting. The Fellowship was asked to vote on whether or not we would continue in TWI. But it was sort of like a Communist election: the result was never in doubt and no dissent was encouraged. One of the Big Fish in the small pond looked at everyone challengingly and declared "Well, I'm sticking. Everyone makes mistakes, and you can't judge someone by a mistake." Hmmmm, I thought. You guys sure do apply that principle selectively, don't you? Just before I bailed, I overheard the Fellowship Coordinator wringing his hands and exclaiming "I just don't understand why we can't attract people. What are we doing wrong?" Man, oh, man.... LCM said in 1994, the year many extreme control measures were started, "This is going to be done right if I'm the only fellowship coordinator in the ministry"!!! He also said to his leaders they had to have "sawdust in their veins" when it came to dealing with people about this stuff. He also said that some people think charity means the love of PEOPLE in the renewed mind in manifestation. He thought it was possible to love God that way yet treat people like crap at the same time. Doesn't it say somewhere in 1 John that if you can't love a brother who can be seen, then how can you love God who can't be seen? I would NEVER have stayed around if my first fellowship had been like yours, pot or no pot. When I left, the leaders tried to cause division between me and my wife. After 18 years I had tried to give twi the benefit of every doubt, but this time I had a knee jerk reaction. My attitude was 'this is wrong, this is not negotiable, therefore twi is now expendable'. I second guessed myself a bit, but the knee still works fine. Not seeking "knee replacement" in this regard. I guess knees are supposed to jerk once in awhile.

quote: "I was hoping for it because I think heaven would be a lot better than this earth," said Bauer, a tractor-trailer driver who began the voyage west last week, figuring that if he "worked last week, I wouldn't have gotten paid anyway, if the Rapture did happen." Would it be a lot better???? We'll have new bodies, but we won't be perfect. We'll probably have work assignments. We'll certainly have to work with....OTHERS! Jesus might not be our direct supervisor much. With Lucifer out of the mix, then yes, it's got to be better, but during the thousand years that satan is bound, there will be body and soul people living on the earth. We'll be basically cops and social workers in our new bodies. Those are 2 of the most stressful jobs EVER! Aww, I'm just messin' with you all. I don't know what it will be like. Remember, too, that Abraham wanted to 'speed dial' God's will once. He heard from God that he would be the father of many nations and Hagar (not Sammy) would be a convenient shortcut. That MUST be what God meant. Oops. But God's will was realized in Sarah and Issac and the return will happen sometime.

quote: Clearly, God is a sports fan, meaning of course Baseball, and having seen the rousing competition between the Oakland A's and the SF Giants last night has decided that this season needs to continue for at least one more game. If more, we will get to see the SF and Oakland series through. Weren't those same 2 teams going to play each other in....Oct. of 1989??????? Maybe this time God'll finish the job. Just kidding.

quote: When I mentioned some book I was reading on Biblical scholarship, they snapped "This (the New Testament) is all you need. God doesn't want you to read anything else. Everything you need is. Right. Here." Needless to say, that was my last meeting. quote: Later, the Fellowship Coordinator ranted that I "wasted everyone's time" and "no one understands anything you say". Not exactly putting their best foot forward. Can't blame you. At my first fellowship we smoked pot after twig was over.

I tend to agree with Geo here. They're just buildings. This reminds me of 2 parallel situations. 1) In Grand Rapids, MI where I lived in 1987 Burger King wanted to open a new store in the downtown area. The site they wanted to open on had a house on it that used to be lived in by the sheriff of GR in 1860 something. This historical society fought it in court...and lost. The judges decision was at 9:15 AM. By 10 AM the house was completely razed. 2) I own a 2 disc DVD set called the closing of Winterland. Used to be the 'home of the ice follies' until Bill Graham took it over after Fillmore West closed down. But Winterland closed down, too, and the Grateful Dead, the New Riders, and even the Blues Bros. did an all night concert complete with breakfast on New Years Eve 78/79. The 2 discs include 3 sets by the Dead, plus footage of the other groups, and interviews with band members, roadies, and BG himself all about Winterland. Neat place; I personally went to several concerts there. The Rolling Stones played there in '72. Wooden stage, wooden floor, good acoustics overall, nice place to see a show, but there were incidents of big chunks of plaster falling from the ceiling. The location is now occupied by condos. I visited Rome City a few times and twice I drove down and worked the Christmas party they did for the staff. Neat place. But unless they can find a reason to occupy those buildings and the cash to execute said reason, it'll probably get turned into a public park if not a mall.

One more day to go; yikes. Do they say what time it will happen? I don't want to miss that show Baggage.

quote: "I found out at this site, Greasespotcafe about........ I don't go there that oftem, but they usually have the scoop on what's happening, headquarters tells us very little." That's funny as hell.

quote: Simply follow the recipe and the "law" will guarantee a perfectly baked cake. VP didn't use those exact words, but if it was so obvious to you that THAT was the message, why didn't you get suspicious when it didn't work? quote: I worked with 2 guys in the 90s. Both about the same age (early 20s). One guy was the eldest of 3 boys, father abandoned the family when he was an adolescent, went in the military, good looking, was a supervisor, girls liked him. The other guy was overweight, impulsive, lived with his parents, envied the hell out of the other guy. Sure, each guy was where their 'believing' took them, but each of their backgrounds had a lot to do with how they turned out, IMO. According to VP, if the 2nd guy wanted to improve he had to 1) drop the envy 2) realize the 1st guy had too great of a head start on him for the 2nd guy to get the exact same results, and 3) get serious about what he could do to build his own confidence. Come to think of it, I should've witnessed to the 2nd guy. My bad.

quote: It can certainly be seen as a process as there's a process involved in achieving that state of awareness and acceptance but it doesn't always and may not need to always be a deliberate action on our part. That's kinda what I meant when I said the only thing college students are "believing FOR" is an education. In that case the state of awareness is whatever is gleaned from sustained exposure to the campus. I don't think VP taught the LOB as the bible being the "universal believing playbook". He said that "you are where you are today because of where your believing has taken you". That's an individual thing for everybody. I worked with 2 guys in the 90s. Both about the same age (early 20s). One guy was the eldest of 3 boys, father abandoned the family when he was an adolescent, went in the military, good looking, was a supervisor, girls liked him. The other guy was overweight, impulsive, lived with his parents, envied the hell out of the other guy. Sure, each guy was where their 'believing' took them, but each of their backgrounds had a lot to do with how they turned out, IMO. VPs angle was...OK, here's where you are now. Do you want to improve anything, or not? If so, God can help you, but you must do your part (believe). If you believe, then God will do the heavy lifting, but you must believe. I think people on their own morphed that into a godless philosophy; that if you scrunch your face up and believe then anything will come your way. I just don't think VP ever intended it that way. AND I didn't rub shoulders with too many in twi who talked like that. VP once said that love is the badge of Christianity right after saying that believing is the genus of Christianity. As basic as breathing. So it's going to be talked about a lot, but most of the talk I heard was people believing for stuff they NEEDED with prayer and action, not for pie in the sky stuff they had no experience in that their whim for the day desired. That reminds me of a cartoon. Mr. Wizard. This dufus named Tutor Turtle would say to Mr. Wizard, "Duh, I want to be a fireman". Then Mr. Wizard would wave his magic wand and chant something and TT'd be a fireman. After a few minutes TT would be in mortal danger, cry for help, and Mr. Wizard would wave his wand again and rescue him. Every episode was like that. Life doesn't work that way. Even people who win the lotto have usually already bought many tickets before getting the winner.

quote: John, rather than make this some sort of personal feud, I simply extend to you the challenge of demonstrating how your post is relevant to the "law of believing" that was taught in PFAL. That is, after all, the subject being discussed here. You started this thread didn't you? It's about JL denouncing the LOB. At least, that's what the top of this page SAYS I'm replying to. Make up your mind.

Sanitation worker: BRING OUT YOUR DEAD! BRING OUT YOUR DEAD! Man on wagon: Uh. I'm not quite dead yet.... Maybe they're considering doing what Landover Baptist website did; few years ago somebody posted a link to LB. This place is fundamentalist purgatory. They tell you that Jim Carrey is going to spend eternity getting a hot poker shoved you know where every 5 minutes for having made Bruce Almighty. Stuff like that. I would browse there for grins until this sign said the website was not for the 'unsaved'. Aww. No more grins from them, anyway. I thought perhaps twi didn't want 'contaminated' people on their holy website.

quote: None of this has the least bit of anything to do with the "law of believing", as taught in PFAL. Not from the soot colored glasses you look through.

I want to throw one thing in the mix about believing. Something I've observed a lot (so has everybody else). I'm comparing 2 places; college campuses and workplaces. As far back as I can remember, there's an atmosphere on college campuses that's really strong. Two of my siblings went to the U. of MI over a period of 7 years ('58-'65). I recall being 5 years old and going to visit my sister there. The whole city of Ann Arbor seems to have the campus atmosphere. To this day every time I go to a college that atmosphere is there. There's just something in the air; don't know what else to call it. Could be a big college like U. CA Berkley or the community college I got my Assoc. degree from. Once I'm on campus the world changes. So what causes it? We used to hear in twi that 'learning is an exciting adventure'. I think that's true. ANY learning. College campuses have lots of mostly young people who are learning about something. Even outside the classroom there's a learning atmosphere. The student centers, peoples' dorm rooms, the cafeteria, etc. It all seems to become one. JL said that nobody's thoughts affect anything outside the person, but they DO affect things inside the person. So if you put thousands of young people in the same space interacting with each other, "believing" to learn and get educated, the result is an "atmosphere". They're not believing FOR anything except an education, I guess, but their collective interaction in that particular scenerio creates a consistent world apart. This is a tangible result. OK now let's talk about workplaces. Totally different atmosphere. Some workplaces have everybody doing their best work, bubbling with excitement and enthusiasm. You feel it as soon as you walk in the door. Other workplaces are filled with burned out people who don't like their jobs as much as they once did and just can't get a better job. You feel that as soon as you walk in the door as well. Same dynamics in both places. Your thoughts (believing) won't affect anything outside of you directly, but they sure affect the contribution you make to the whole, whatever that is. Nothing people do is absolute truth. People are fickle. You want absolute truth? Check out God through Jesus Christ's finished work.

John Lynn points out what he thinks believing IS and what it AIN'T. Some here are one dimensional; they get in parrot mode. RAWK...law of believing...RAWK...false doctrine. They put any and all discussion about believing in that one box. That's all they need to know. Like the glassy eyed plantation owner in the 1967 movie 'In the heat of the night' who slapped Sidney Poiter (and got immediately reciprocated). He knew all he needed to know. Per JL, believing is NOT... your thoughts going out into the universe and causing you to get a sports car or anything else your thoughts affecting anything outside your body believing IS... as a man thinketh in his heart so is he your thoughts definitely affect things inside your body if you pray faithfully for something that is God's will, that's not just your thoughts going out into the universe, because God is now involved Just because some people had that wrong in some situations doesn't mean they were teaching 'false doctrine'. The issue was muddied. JL saw that, so did others. Gotta go for now.