johniam

What is the difference in meaning between the words 'family' and 'familiarity'? To borrow terminology from realtors, family is a fixed relationship and familiarity is an adjustable one. Fifty years ago me, my parents and my siblings all lived under the same roof. We were not only family, but we were familiar with each other's comings and goings every day. Now we're all still family, but we're more familiar with others. I think that's healthy. VP is not my immediate family. I still respect him as father in the word et al but in twi my immediate family was those I saw pretty much every day. Those are the people who helped me the most. Hurt, too. No, you don't shut off your critical thinking skills but you do naturally relax around those you consider your immediate family more than around anybody else.

Critical thinking is selective. Yes, we're supposed to do it, but as humans, we need to let down our guard at times. That's what families are for. If I have to engage critical thinking every single time I talk to anybody, I'm going to wear down eventually. I can relax around my family. So if twi is/was my spiritual family, then no big deal. quote: This was quickly followed up with the record of Eve's demise for considering an alternative to what God said, adding a word, changing a word, deleting a word, etc. And it all starts with considering "Did God really say?". Look how easy it was for her to get into trouble. I wasn't going to be like her was I? Compare Eve's situation to the other time in scripture the devil appeared personally to a human; Jesus being tempted in Matt 4 and Luke 4. Both times something huge was at stake. Eve, and later Adam were deceived; Jesus was not. The "critical thinking" Jesus used was "it is written". Bibliolatry? Mind control? Who can tell?

Socks: The ignore bit was for Thomas Loy Bumgarner (TLB). The reason I put the scripture in there was because I figured someone would think what? where was Jesus called a pervert? They were trying to convince Pilate that Jesus was proclaiming himself to be a king who rivaled Caesar. Rebellion is perversion I guess.

quote: Jesus wasn't accused of being a "pervert" in the sense you might be using it johniam ("and even a pervert") there in Luke, although that word gets used in various bibles and translations. The "actual greek" reads kinda weird in those straight to transliteration versions. Frankly I don't know how anyone can get an English rendering out of the some of the greek stuff, so I confess to being no greek skollar. But if the sense you're after is of a sexual pervert, no, that verse and that accusation - no. The original meaning of the word 'pervert' is a verb. It means to use something in a way it wasn't designed to be used. The verse in Luke DOES use that word in that way. Today because of the media the first thing you think of when you hear that word is a sex pervert. But in Luke, this accusation was the basis for their requesting that Pilate crucify him. The words 'heretic' and 'deceiver' were for their own people. TLB: Thought you had me on ignore. Seems you've made some progress. I do exist after all.

quote: I don't have anything against RD personally, he was nice to me, but comparing RD to Jesus is a bit of a stretch. We are as he is, remember? How are we going to be as he is if we don't compare ourselves to him? Geisha, did you know that Jesus had a 'cult awareness program'? It's in Matt. 15. Practically speaking, a 'cult' is any group which the mainstream representatives of that religion feel is misrepresenting their god. The Jews called Jesus a heretic, a deceiver, and even a pervert (Luke 23:2). They were the mainstream. Surely they were the "experts". Today's cult awareness experts fit the profile of the Jews who killed Jesus. Twi at one time fit the profile of Jesus and his followers. What exactly was Jesus' 'cult awareness program'? Matt.15:14 - Let them alone; they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch. He wasn't losing any sleep over these people being blind. Or over them leading other people into blindness. He was too busy doing good and healing those that were oppressed of the devil to care about people who were misrepresenting God. They wouldn't let him alone, though, would they? I don't know exactly what RD apologized for, but I doubt it was THAT.

quote: Why is it not obvious to everyone that snapping at someone in public and cursing at them-especially where small children are in obvious earshot-is wrong? quote: Ministering grace to someone with words never involves telling them to go flock themselves. It may make the speaker feel good or make someone else giggle, but not because it ministered grace to either of them. Was Jesus ministering grace to the hearers when he told those Jews ye are of your father the devil? How about when he told those in Matt 23 they were like whited sepulchers which outwardly look beautiful but inwardly were full of dead men's bones? Or how about when he told Peter get behind me satan? Once again, your 'one size fits all' moral superiority is a bag with holes.

quote: You're right. It's wrong to say that in front of anybody and yes, I've said it myself in front of others. It's even wrong to say it when you're by yourself and I've done that too. I was responding to your earlier post where you commented how genuine, real, caring and compassionate Ralph was being when he told some guy to flag himself. I'm saying he was none of those things at that particular point in time. Frankly, I'm not so sure today that even Ralph would consider this action "right-on". The guy who was with him said Ralph did that to bless him, in other words, Ralph didn't just say stuff like that any time he felt like it. I was at a teaching of his in 1979 when he was trunk leader. He said something word related that made some guy in the audience mad. The guy yelled stuff at Ralph, who responded very politely and encouraged the guy to wait until after the meeting. The guy a few seconds later yelled "God LOVES people!" and Ralph said "that's right God loves people" and went on with his teaching. So the guy shuts up and after the meeting Ralph was stuck talking to the guy, but he didn't tell him to f himself. As for the smart mouth guy in Detroit, I bet he thought once or twice before the next time he dissed a 'jesus freak'. Yeah, baby! As for whether it's wrong to say that; the word 'swearing' in the bible has a different meaning than it does in modern culture. Today you can be arrested for swearing in public, which DOES mean using certain words, and we have to respect that, but in the word, 'swearing' means to make an oath to God, or in God's name that you don't have any intention of honoring. To swear, or forswear thyself, has more to do with one's integrity than it does the exact speech used. Jesus said let your communication be yea or nay, in other words say what you mean and mean what you say. Ironically, many adults who use so called swear words do so because they really want you to know that they mean what they're saying. Relevance? The thread is about faking it and socks said those who fake it run the risk of becoming something they are not.

You don't have to do that in front of McDonalds to do it in front of God. Neither of you guys ever used the f word before, eh? Right.

TWI did send people out as wows. That move put a LOT of trust in the individuals. Plenty of room for God to work. TWIs most productive years were when the most wows were out there. So LCM cancels the wow program because of "homo infestation". Good thing VP didn't cancel the original wow year because of drugs and hippies, huh?

quote: I feel badly for those who "faked" their convictions and actions to the point they were being something they were not. When we do that in regards to anything it's going to haunt us later. It's good to recognize it and deal with it and not let it linger or continue, I'd say. This reminds me of someone who did the opposite. Ralph. He was a high profile twi leader. He was a limb, region, and truck leader plus extention and outreach coordinator. Through all that, he got to teach a lot. He was passionate; he was as entertaining a speaker as John Lynn, Donnie Fugit, or anyone you could name. He was a very effective cheerleader for twi. Hearing him teach was often a shot in the arm. He definitely was not faking it. His first assignment after corps graduation was in Detroit. He wasn't the limb leader yet, but he had some wows under him. He wrote a letter to the city of Detroit explaining that the noticeable drop in Detroit's crime rate was directly attributable to all the wows that came to the city. Not long after that 4 high powered rifle shots rang through a house where a pfal class was being run, one of which hit and knocked off a wooden table leg. Nobody was hit or hurt. Few years later a friend of mine was sent wow to Detroit on his interim year. Ralph was at the limb HQ 100 miles away. Ralph visited this guy and the guy was hurting inside. Detroit is a tough town. They were at McDonalds and Ralph turned to a guy behind him and asked if the guy wanted to come to fellowship. The guy coldly said, "Why don't you take your act on the road?" Ralph responded loudly with, "Yeah! Why don't you f yourself!" There was a lady with small children a few feet away. Guy turned white as a sheet. Ralph didn't do that just to be a jerk; he did it to bless my friend whose feelings were hurt. Like I said...passionate...not faking it. He wrote an article in that book 'The living word speaks' which was presented to VP during twis 40th year. The book was a collection of articles written by names we knew. Ralph's article documented places in the word where corrupt leaders in the church hurt God's people. He was 'agin' it. Ralph used to post as Ralph D on waydale and I'm pretty sure he posted here by a different name as recently as a few years ago if not since. He no longer believes twi was a good thing. Again, he's not faking it. Do we have to be faking something to be in twi? Or a spinoff? The times I've faked it have been around outsiders, including my family.

If capital punishment is a violation of "vengeance is mine" then so is a speeding ticket. In the word, there is capital punishment, but the closest thing I can think of to life imprisonment is slavery, and a doulos was only forced into it for 6 years. Anybody here not glad Osama bin Laden is dead?

I think Donnie got defrocked.

quote: so, what "power" does their certificate imbue one with? Education is just a tool. It is not a guarantee of virtue. What does a Harvard degree imbue one with? You could be Al Gore, or you could be Ted Kaszinski (sp) (the unabomber). Neither of those 2 is enviable to me.

QUOTE: now i am so happy to say that, when people ask me to volunteer or donate or do something, i say no thanks and i don't give an explanation. i'm not rude but i don't feel compelled since i don't feel guilt or like i owe them one In the late 80s I lived in a house of believers in MI and this lady moved in with us. She would come up to you and say, "Would you be blessed to...(something nobody was ever blessed to do)?" We'd just look at her and say, "Nope!" This must've worked where she'd lived before, but after a few times she got the message. Yeah, stuff like that was pretty weird.

quote: But the way international claim they are accredited with degree granting status. Is this current? Back in the day I heard that all corps grads diplomas were from Rome City because they couldn't get degree granting status from Emporia. Interestingly, Mark Olthouse, Harm's brother, got a bachelor's degree from Calvin College, a very respected school in Grand Rapids, MI. He took some greek classes from TWI and Calvin College at first balked at giving him the degree, but he demanded it and they gave it to him.

quote: So, then, you might ask yourself... why were we being groomed as salesmen instead of servants of our fellow man? Well, the answer is obvious, PFAL was VPW's product and we were his sales force. After that reality sets in, you can start to ponder this... If the Bible really has every thing you need to know about everything and anything, why weren't we trained using scriptural materials rather than all these non-Biblical/pseudo-Biblical sources? You're right, Waysider. We WERE like a sales force. So what? Why is that automatically "unchristian". What we did got the word of God to people and that's what counts. I know you doubt that, but you don't speak for everybody who ever took pfal. Many of us are still grateful for having done so. I think VP was clever for applying sales techniques to modern day Christianity. It worked; thousands of us found it helpful. Jesus certainly wasn't "faking it" on the cross.

Maybe this was a corps thing, but I was never grilled by anyone after a teaching as to whether I liked/understood it. PLus, to this day I often space out during a teaching and think about something else for a few minutes, either something in my daily life or something word related NOT what is being taught. Well, now that I think about it, one time Donnie Fugit's wife, Becky was just finished teaching and Donnie reproved us all saying "75% of you did NOT believe what she just taught". But that was rare. As for 'fake it till you make it', at this one job I had we all had to LOOK busy for prolonged periods of time and I got into the habit of sitting on the toilet without intending to put anything in it just to pass the time.

Sliced bread, maybe; canned beer? No way!

Here's a couple. One God the unfinished reformation - Bob Carden 2005 Grace Christian Press EW Bullinger a biography - Juanita S Carey 2000 Kregel Publications

I've never heard any story about a fish hook. Cancer is a physical disease which can be diagnosed by the 5 senses. Someone posted earlier that cancer falls on the dark side, or something. If it were possible, every cell in the body would become a cancer cell. Extremely parasitic. Fits the profile of steal, kill, and destroy. I'm guessing that the first person who ever had cancer WAS possessed. Those spirits used the person's body as a laboratory. This could still happen, but by now there HAS to be ways cancer can be caused by something that enters the body from without. Air, water, or food perhaps. It doesn't have to originate inside the body. I heard recently that animals in the wild never get cancer, but animals in captivity get it all the time. Hmm.

Nobody seems to know what the topic IS. On the thread itself it says 'culture of selfishness', then it's about Christ's compassion. Instead of whining, why don't YOU get us "back on topic". You're like that little gold fish in 'the Cat in the Hat'. You think you're the voice of everybody's conscience. You think you're going to sweet talk the devil into changng his ways and turning his life around. Good luck with that.

quote: In The Way there's always been a "yeah, so what?" attitude towards "good works". Makes me think of 2 things... 1) I once heard Donnie Fugit say that the Jesus freak movement was started by 2 guys who sat through the first 4 sessions of pfal and didn't finish the class. This was supposed to be a bad thing; that they should have stayed put in twi. I just looked up their wikipedia article and, it appears, they had a lot of impact in their time. Especially getting Christians from different groups to spend time together for week long festivals, and that Billy Graham himself was OK with this to an extent. I don't see that as a bad thing. 2) Here in STL there was a 'Church of the abundant life' visible from one of the highways in the 70s/80s. I was told it was started by a lady who was a pfal grad. I don't see that as a bad thing, either. Here we have 2 examples of people who were exposed to pfal, then went in their own direction and did their own good works. Ralph D once said he thanked God for people like Billy Graham and Oral Roberts. Even LCM once said he didn't really mind people giving to causes like the Salvation Army as long as it wasn't done out of guilt. Eph. says we were saved unto good works. I don't think twi leaders were all oblivious to that. TWIs structure, in and of itself, was not a bad thing. Many good works for God were done in twi. So they charged money for a class. Big deal. I just can't forget how blatantly viscious the response was at times going out witnessing. It was bizarre. Nobody hates like that without the devil's direct help. The devil is subtle. He got people emotional over the trinity, but that's people. The devil himself and his spirits? They took twi VERY seriously. There was SOMETHING in twis overall presentation that he did NOT want known. The mystery? SIT? ADAN? Not sure, but as long as twi was big enough to potentially get legitimacy and credibility, the attacks never stopped.

quote: It's just so nice to be able to speak. (Thanks, again,Pawtucket for this place in which we can speak our piece.) Must be nice. quote: How many twi or extwi groups would (1) take a group from the nursing home to see a movie, and then (2) would think "that just rips your heart out" if something happened to those people? Christians do that. They care about other people, that's what the Holy Spirit does in your life. Why does Christianity have to be "seen of men" to be legitimate. If I take my family out to see a movie, or do other things that benefit them or my circle of friends, why isn't that good enough for God? I think I'M the one being bullied and even baited right now.

It stands for if I remember correctly; his name came up on a thread and I'm pretty sure it was Groucho who posted that he was now openly gay. But this was years ago. Wouldn't make sense that he was still married to a woman. Pamela? Was that her name?

quote: I would just like people to think a little more deeply about what they read, and what they repeat, parrot-fashion – and how much richer, much much richer, their understanding would be if basics of English language were understood. English grammar can be studied in great depth. I’m not advocating you take a degree in it. I’m suggesting just enough study to get more out of what you already know – to understand the subtleties of written English. You probably do understand the differences in the tenses even though you can’t quite put your finger on what the differences are or what they mean, and it’s not quite so important in spoken English because there are usually non-verbal clues to a fuller understanding. Okay, I’m getting off this soap box for the time being… Why? You're doing so good. Jesus Christ the same, yesterday, today, and forever. So, if 'by whose stripes' is Jesus Christ's stripes, then the subsequent healing is also yesterday, today, and forever. Past present and future. Either you're healed or you're not. What are you going to confess? Jesus said 'Father, for this purpose was I spared' a positive confession....when he was about to DIE!!! All your soap box amounts to is arguing with God.