johniam

I agree with a soft answer turns away wrath. Having been married almost 23 yrs I've practiced that one many times. So has my wife.

Thank you all for the input. We leave this Friday. I'm kind of excited.

You're inclined to THINK??? News to me. quote: those who use these words publicly don't have the intellect to meaningfully express themselves in any other manner. quote: Therefore, our handling of others, whether in "sermons" or "teachings" or just everyday matters, should be with goodness, forbearance and longsuffering. Not with screaming, yelling, foul language, and belittling, quote: Well for me, it actually isn't about the bible. I just got to the point in life where I will not accept verbal abuse from anyone anymore. quote: Language is a form of human communication and contact, a verbal gesture if you will. Basically, more or less but mostly more. We impact others externally through our language, communicate our thought and intent. Words that signify force - think about it. It's tempting to think that an aversion to "swearing" is an outcome of religious convictions but I don't think so. "god damm (sp)".... The "n" word.....one of the most volatile words in our language, today. I can guarantee there's no religious ties to how that would be interpreted by most people today. No religious convictions are required to demand that language reflect respect for others. Me, I'm not "afraid" of using certain words but I would use certain words carefully so as not to offend others unnecessarily. Living peacefully with others? How I speak and communicate is something I control - if I use language that will insult or offend others that's not acting responsibliy.... Unless I want to insult and offend. In that case, I get what's expected. The practice of swearing by Wayfer "Leaders" - an ignominious practice. Stupid, unnecessary and wihtout merit. There's no excuse for it, if there is I'd like to hear it specifically and how it benefited those involved. Say on, all who would. quote: They should be avoided, but sometimes that's not possible. It says in Romans 12 if it be possible as much as lieth in you live peacably with all men, but it's not always possible. A Christian should not be afraid to use those words. Waysider. THIS is what is being discussed. You have a serious disconnect.

quote: Let's just back up a bit here. What would Jesus do? Did he yell and scream at his disciples? It doesn't seem so. He did reprove them, sometimes sternly - but lovingly. He didn't belittle them, tear them down. He certainly didn't aggrandize himself. How did he treat others - hangers-on? He taught them kindly, using words and expressions, graphic examples, what was around him, that they could relate to. Have another look at the sermon on the mount (for example). What would Paul do? He was skilled in argument. He argued with the best. Not arguing rudely, aggressively, or belittlingly. He argued persuasively about "the unknown God" in many locations. In fellowships, he taught at length, in detail. He didn't bellow at those who were listening. Even when some sleepyhead fell out of the window, Paul didn't bellow at anyone for their lack of believing, or lack of attention / falling asleep. Aw, now you just HAD to mention Jesus. OK. First of all, I think everybody will agree that there's a difference between talking to your family/household and talking to an outsider. Especially if the outsider is trying to harm/disrespect you. The first post on this thread refers to someone dealing with an outsider. First paragraph. I know that twi became much more abbrasive at the twig level beginning in 1994. I was spared this, for the most part. Here am I, reprove me? That's what they tried to sell to some of us as legit. No, that's not good. What did Jesus do? When dealing with family/household, just like you posted; lovingly. But what about outsiders? Ye are of your father the devil. Ye are like unto whited sepulchres. You don't think Jesus KNEW these words would be offensive? In Matt. 15:12 his disciples were concerned that the Pharisees were offended. Jesus wasn't. If someone forces you into a conflict, you HAVE to deal with it. You can't just let everybody walk on you thinking it's somehow virtuous. How does God get glorified in that? Paul wasn't any different (Acts 13:46). Got a couple of good stories. 1) In 1993 a girl had taken pfal but wasn't really familiar with twi politics. She went to the ROA and the area coordinator decided to tell her how it was. He reproved her about something using cuss words. He wasn't a rev, just a WC grad who was area cordo. So he tries to shock her into realization with cuss words. Didn't even faze her; she gave it right back to him and later told us matter of factly that she was going to get that guy in trouble with twi if he didn't cut it out. She would find the the area cordo was just the tip of the iceberg, but she sure got that guy's goat. 2) This happened to me couple three months ago. I was at Aldi's, got in my car to leave, as I drove forward another car pulled forward right in my path and stopped. So I stopped and tried to drive around the other car. She pulls forward right in my path and stops AGAIN. I don't think she was trying to cause an accident; I think she was just so self absorbed that she just didn't care to figure out that others are in the parking lot also. So I stopped and tried to drive around her a second time. This time when my windows were even with her's she screeches at me "Wut duh hell you think you DOIN'?" I said I'm trying to get out of the f'ing parking lot! She called me an a, I called her a c, then she called me a b and sped off. It was actually a very uniform exchange of words which lasted less than 5 seconds. She was at least 35 years old. I said to myself, "OK. I just got called a b by an angry black woman. My life is complete." Swearing in public is risky. So is having a gun in your house. This month in STL there have been 3 headlines of children being fatally shot at homes where there was a gun. One 3 year old shot himself, a nine year old shot a 7 year old, and a 5 year old shot an 18 month old. Nobody yet charged with a crime. One of the homes was a police officer. Apples and oranges? Maybe, but in cases where an outsider is harassing you, a well placed cuss word could be exactly what is needed.

quote: Defining "swearing" from the bible doesn't relate to the topic directly or even indirectly. I guess there's some historical fuzz that informs the modern use of the word 'swearing" when it's used to mean what we might loosely call "bad words" but the fact that the biblical definition of swearing to an oath is different than.......well, it's a silly point IMO. Most people who are offended by so called 'swearing' have had exposure to the bible. Most church Christians just mindlessly believe that when the bible talks about swearing that it automatically means the use of 4 letter words. Not so. Many good points have been made on this thread. Swear words used in public usually mean somebody is ready to do anything to make their point up to and including fighting. They should be avoided, but sometimes that's not possible. It says in Romans 12 if it be possible as much as lieth in you live peacably with all men, but it's not always possible. A Christian should not be afraid to use those words.

I had a Chick track put on my windshield couple years ago. It was the one where this young rich guy dies and gets judged by God, who looks like a gigantic Lincoln Memorial. He gets judged for everything. For knocking over a potted plant while a baby in a crib, for seeing a woman and thinking, "Nice", and for other stuff. He doesn't make it; goes to hell. Glad we've already been judged.

quote: So that would be like a smoker with the flu coughing into your face or your childrens and responding with "Children won't be hurt unless you are." That's not at all similar. Using 4 letter words are illegal in some situations, but they don't expose anybody to disease. How ridiculous. The state agrees with you that if you swear in public you can be arrested. That is like disorderly conduct or creating a disturbance. A disrespect misdemeanor. But you know as well as I do that most people who use 4 letter words don't always do it to show disrespect. Those words can be nouns, verbs, adjectives, adverbs, interjections, even conjunctions, like most other words. They can express hubris and other abbrasive moods, but most twi fellowships I ever attended did not include them. Does Christ in you disappear when those words are uttered? A certain twi leader once related an incident in which he was talking to a minister and he let the s word slip out. The minister went ballistic and started casting the "spirit of foul language" out of him. The leader folded his arms and waited for the minister to finish, then said, "Didn't f'ing work, did it?" Do you think that minister was controlling his tongue? How about his mind? If it's OK for that minister to get 'spiritually angry', then it's OK for anybody else to also. If it's about respect then it's about quality of life. As you say, we each make those choices for our own lives.

Oh, please. So many rules. I'm a parent. I have the right to raise my children as I see fit. I also use four letter words around the house. My wife is the barometer; if I do it too much she lets me know. She uses them herself. We just told our kids look, if you use those words around the wrong person you're going to get in trouble at school or anywhere. I told them that we (mom and dad) would also get in trouble if we used those words around the wrong person. Never had any complaints from our kids' schools. In 1983 or so I was a twig cordo. There was a limb meeting featuring John Townsend. He met with us twig cordos first before the big meeting. This was right around the time that Russian plane shot down a plane with Americans on it near Sakhalin Island headed for Seoul, S. Korea. He (JT) said he was spiritually incensed about it. He said if we (America) eat s*** too many more times like that we'd be in bad shape. Something like that. Later at the limb meeting he said the same thing only "eat dirt" rather than the other. Does anybody really think that certain English syllables, which weren't even invented yet when the bible was written, are, in and of themselves, offensive to God? I posted recently that the word 'swearing' as used in the bible doesn't have anything to do with certain 4 letter English words. To 'swear' or 'forswear thyself' biblically means to make an oath either to God, or in God's name that you have no intention of honoring (Num 30:2, Eccl 9:2). It has more to do with the person's integrity than with the exact speech used. Children won't be hurt unless you are.

quote: not going to be there with us??!!!........... I eat only good books...over! Never heard of that place. Turns out there's 2 of them in STL, one just a few blocks from the arch. Looks kinda pricy though.

This is so unbelievable it's comical.

Integrity implies a 2 party transaction. The word is quick and powerful; all that good stuff, but the 2nd party is...US! Integrity is not an island, in other words. It requires someone else to benefit from said integrity. Whether or not any individual believes the word of God is always at stake. You just refuse to see it. Your mind is already made up. You manifest your OWN version of 'black and white thinking' when it comes to twi. You need to come up with a new pick up line, btw. You always say my posts "have nothing to do with the discussion". Shelf life is expired on that one. Just last week I sent an email to the STL post-dispatch and they printed it. Two emails on the issue in question and one of them was mine. Who knows how many were rejected? The issue? Saggy pants. The practice in hip hop/ prison culture of wearing pants half way down the butt. It was outlawed in Collinsville, IL. First offense - ticket, 2nd offense - fine and community service. There was an article about it, editorial cartoons, internet discussion, etc. My email made an analogy between this issue and my own experience 40 years ago of being a guy with long hair. It was never illegal for a guy to have long hair, but there was definitely a backlash. A guy in my high school was shot and killed by a Nebraska farmer in 1970 for the crime of having long hair. He had been hitching and the farmer picked him up. But if you, Waysider, had been working at the post-dispatch letters dept. then you'd no doubt have sent me an angry email asking what possible connection does saggy pants today have with long haired men 40 years ago????? But, seriously, you need to come up with a different strategy. You must really feel that the integrity of GSC is at stake.

The fact that you obviously already think you know the answer to the question DOES invalidate the question, at least, from an "integrity" pov. BUT, dear friends.... You can't care, because you don't believe in the devil. You buy all that psychobabble that there's no God, no devil, it's all in your mind, right? Why is anything at stake? Why is your car at stake? Because someone might try to steal it. That's why you lock the doors, have a car alarm, put the club on it, whatever. Why is your identity at stake? Because someone might try to steal it as well. Who might try to steal the word of God? Who comes not but for to steal, kill, and destroy? Duh! Of course, this led to people being nit picky about words and phrases. Calling it an advance instead of a retreat, etc. That was always fun. Slip up just a tad and hear someone say "en garde"! Nice. Today we have another belief system which encourages followers to be nit picky about words and phrases. It's called politically correct. I guess the integrity of non white, non male, and non Christian peoples' dignity is always at stake. Can't even call them 'oriental' anymore; gotta call them Asian. Europe isn't the center of the world! C'mon, get with the program!

What do you care?

Not possible. Remember? Incorruptible seed. BOOP! In stays the button. The exact sequence of our hope, according to 1 Thes 4 is... 1) rising (whether dead in Christ or alive) 2) meeting the Lord in the air 3) EVER being with the Lord. Forever! Now think about that. We will receive rewards, and be with the Lord at that time. Do you think we will be judged and then cast away from the Lord? It says EVER be with the Lord. Talk about BFF. What superficial threat nullifies this? You can never be spiritually homeless again. This is really a love issue. Charity vaunteth not itself. I can't think of a better example of vaunting itself than for a religious group to act like their puny little group is the only "broker" of the body of Christ on earth. Catholics and protestants do it. Even the smallest group, once money starts pouring in somebody decides it's better to judge and threaten people than to love people. "Better for the bottom line" We could see this at the twig level at times. But twi actually taught, as doctrine, that we are born again of incorruptible seed, that we're going to heaven and all hell can't stop us from going. Oops. I felt violated when forced out of twi at first, but never threatened to the point of doubting the hope. That's just me, I guess.

quote: We were required to give protection money to God Whatever happened to "God loveth a cheerful giver"?

quote: I believe it was in 1979 when I heard through the Way Trunk office about a WOW family where one of the men had shot another person, I believe it was a person in the WOW family. When I heard about it, I recognized the person as someone I'd known from years before, a very nice guy and the last person I'd have ever expected to hear of doing something like that but clearly he had. I'm sorry to say I don't recall if the person shot was killed, I don't believe so but I don't remember all the details now. It was really a shock and sad to say the least. To be honest I don't remember the details of what happened and why, I don't think I ever learned the whole story. It was a terrible incident and completely outside anything that anyone at the Way or within the WOW program would have expected or perhaps even thought possible, yet it happened. I can see why twi wouldn't want this known. During my wow year a wow in Alabama was killed in a car wreck. That's the worst I remember hearing about. Nothing violent ever happened in my wow family. But since nobody got hurt and no 3rd party authorities got involved I'd call it a war story. There is a current gsc poster who was on the lam for something very serious, then got witnessed to by a wow in another state and told the wow what had been done. The wow never ratted the person out. Seems to be fine now, but that person's life could have turned out very different if the wow called in any authorities just to "do the right thing". We believed God was very interested in our personal lives; that we lived above the world; that God's justice is better than man's. Why do people here seem to think that God was never present when wows were trying to move the word? Really, I think if those wows would have called the police and let them handle it (when the guy pointed the gun at them) nobody, even the guy who pointed the gun, would have ultimately felt it was automatically the wrong thing to do. Same for the Zachary Brodeur situation. I bet those twi people are glad he's off the street. But I'm also glad it turned out not to be necessary for those wows.

quote: Did you actually know this woman personally or are you basing your opinion on one side of a WOW war story? No. Like I said, us MO wows that year saw each other every couple months throughout the year. But in late April, all us wows got to do something most wows probably never got to do. We drove up to the limb city early Friday AM and drove a bus all the way to HQ for the weekend. I got a bigger exposure to all those people in a whole weekend than previously. The girl had already been removed as family cordo and she seemed noticeably more relaxed. I never saw her again after the wow year, but 3 years afterward I heard she'd gotten married, still in twi. Socks: I don't know what the fascination is; sometimes I post stuff that I'd been thinking about just to see what the reaction is. Not as being sensational, but as something I think about that I want to put through the GSC litmus test, so to speak. The gun bit? Yeah, I guess that makes a good war story. Murdered? Never heard about anything like that.

I see a common theme here: apparently society has gotten to the point that it is now taboo for a household or an organization to try to handle something in house. No, as soon as a situation gets tricky we must drop everything and farm it out to a third party. We're too stupid to do anything without government intervention. Wait. What was it.... "Obey the government, for there is no government anywhere that God has not placed in power". Can't have these wows out there spreading God's word. No way to control them.

If...?

quote: Add to this....the isolation from real Christian influence, or any other influence really....the subtle and not so subtle bullying....the constant exposure to the same material over and over again.... it is no wonder we couldn't think. Basically everyone other than wayfers were off limits. Worldly influence or carnal Christians were dangerous! Even some Wayfers were off limits if they fell far enough from grace. I don't think twi "disarmed" me. Yes, there were 'bullies' but they didn't stop anyone from thinking. Same material over and over again? How is that really different from college or the military? I see twi as a greenhouse. They took me out of the world for 8 years, beginning with my wow year. It was as though God allowed me to push the pause button on my life, get loved, nourished, and renewed in the 'greenhouse', and then go back and try it again. Amazing difference. quote: Many of us lived, worked with, ate with, and breathed other believers. People were in our lives, our space, our heads.....there was manipulation with fear, pride, and ego.....if that didn't work to keep the abs rolling in...there was always actual threat. The worst thing TWI played on IMO is people's desire to do good and be committed to something. When everything in life, often including spouse and family, is wrapped up like that....in one small sub-culture....it is nearly impossible to stop and think. I am happy it is over. I still miss some people though...and I still think TWI had some exceptional people. What were you 'threatened' with? They taught us we were born again of incorruptible seed and we were going to be at the gathering together no matter what. They couldn't threaten us with hell like the catholic and protestant churches routinely do. What threat? There are people in lives, space, and heads in the military, too. But not for EVER. The reason there were/are exceptional people there is because twi was too Christian; they have an exceptional God. There was plenty of room for God to work despite the legalism.

Plus we were all so young. I was 23 when I was a wow. That's not far removed from college frat age. I remember, too, it only cost $150. to go, not 400. So Waysider, you have now concluded there's no such thing as devil spirits? Zac Brodeur doesn't have any? How about Jared Loughner? It's one extreme to see them everywhere (1994 purges), but it's another extreme to not see them at all.

You gotta remember, devil spirits must've worked overtime trying to mess with wow families. I know of 2 other wow war stories worse than the ones already on this thread. 1) Guy from Connecticut got sent to MI. 4 guys in the family. One guy from Georgia has issues. 2/3 of the way through the year he points a loaded rifle at the other 3 guys. He gets kicked off the field. 6 weeks later, he gets allowed back. The guy from CT couldn't believe it. Nobody died. 2) Guy from STL finally decides to go wow 7 years after he took pfal. Interesting guy. His first ministry event (1979) was a 1950s style halloween party. He came with a leather jacket, hair combed like Sha na na, Lucky Strikes rolled up in his T shirt sleeve, and a few other accessories. He won 1st prize for his costume. Only thing was...he wasn't WEARING a costume. That was how he looked all the time. He was a good guy, though. Then he got sent to Jamaica Plains in the Boston area. Didn't have much interest in fellowship after that. What turned him off? Legalism. This was the year immediately after the pop paper came out. Poor guy; they just wouldn't let him be. About the family with the turd bit; this girl really needed to lighten up and it worked. She actually considered it loving (oh boy, he's chasing me again, tee hee). The guy never soiled her, he was just doing it to gross her out (lighten her up). That's how it was explained to me. I don't know about anybody else, but I was not impressed with Bob Matheson, the wow czar. He was on a tape once and he said he thought war stories hurt the wow program. He said one common story was about having to eat mac and cheese and pb and j sandwiches. "WHY CAN"T YOU BELIEVE TO EAT STEAK!!!" He came off to me as a real blowhard. Not long after that it made me happy to hear LCM say "need some more war stories? Heck, go wow!" Masturbation a strategy? Let's see. I don't have a sex partner, and I hate waiting for Jesus to give me another wet dream, so...HEY! I've GOT it!

quote: Yes, we all four stayed the entire year; psychologically abandoned, adrift and completely dysfunctional, but we stayed together. Funny how much the human mind can seemingly tolerate. On the drive back to the Rock, we weren't speaking. We stopped for the night at some believer's house, but I decided to sleep in our WOWmobile. After the Rock, I stopped associating with TWI and soon began using recreational drugs on a daily basis. I snapped out of it in a few years. This reenforces something to me. In 1982 LCM was lamenting the fact that in twi the "dropout rate" was highest the year after the wow year, like it was a bad thing. I think it's a good thing. Wow let everybody know what they were in for if they continued in twi. Before wow, you could basically lead a double life. At twig you put on your twi face; everywhere else you put on whatever face you want. Not as being double minded; more like still sorting things out. As a wow, you're with believers 24/7. No place for the other face, if you will. After a year of that, some folks want MORE! Others...not so much. Wow enabled us to make a more informed decision as to whether to continue in twi. I think that's a good thing whatever their decision was. quote: This is the unaltered response of someone who SUPPORTS the idea of the original and the current programs. Personally, I think it makes a stronger argument that the thing is TOXIC than anything I can post. Let me get this straight. You take ONE occasional incident from ONE wow family out of all the thousands of wow families there were/are. And it's "toxic"? Why, of COURSE it's an objective opinion.

quote: Just so I'm clear about what you meant... Is "the rude truth" you're referring to that "she needed to masturbate more"? Yes.

All RIGHT! IT LIVES!! YES! That's awesome. quote: My WOW brother was also our family coordinator for the first few months, until our BC finally believed what we'd been telling her and got permission from HQ to demote (but not remove) him. He used to entertain us, his stunned WOW family. His favorite way, one which always got a huge laugh out of him, was to walk out from the bathroom with his thang dangling out his zipper. haha, what a riot. Another favorite was to walk around with an erection that he would suddenly and unexpectedly flash at us. HAHA! Oh my. Those were some good times. You're the best. This reminds me of a story. During my wow year we'd occasionally meet with the other wow families in our state, so I got somewhat familiar with everybody. The next year I was in a way home with 2 other wows from the year before, so I heard stories. In one family, a woman started out the year as the family cordo. But she was really uptight. During one meeting with the limb cordo she was told she needed to masturbate more. One of the guys in the family used to regularly use tongs and pick up one of his recently deposited turds and chase her with it. That guy became the family cordo at some point during the year. All 4 in the family finished the program. I'm glad I didn't hear about some of that stuff until after the last time I saw them. Man, if I had tried that with either of my wow sisters they would have chopped me up into 12 pieces and sent a piece to each of the 12 regions. Didn't something like that happen in the OT? But where else are you going to hear the rude truth like that? What a riot. If you want to grow, well you might like to know, there's only one way to go, ambassadors. Keep it alive!