johniam

When I was young my mother, a democrat, told me that Elinor Roosvelt once said of Richard Nixon, that his ambition was frightening. Recent finished Kris Skedgell's book 'Losing the Way'. One thing that appalled me was the consistent behavior of her ex husband. She describes an incident where, before they were married, he was stewing about how he wasn't a reverend yet, and he was in the worst limb in the country, really angry about all this. IMO he had his head up his rear. So Kris tries to get him to lighten up by telling a corny joke...and he decides she's not taking him seriously enough, so he starts poking her...repeatedly...hard...and he breaks her arm. Huh? I recall a Ralph D. teaching from late 70s early 80s about what he called a "vision problem". He compared 2 guys who had graduated from the way corps. One was assigned to be limb leader in a state which had two (2) twigs in the whole state. The other was assigned to be a branch leader over 9 twigs. On the surface, the guy with the 9 twigs had greater responsibility than the guy with just 2 twigs. But... After 3 years at their respective places, the guy with 2 twigs had expanded to 15 twigs. Not bad. But the guy with 9 twigs had shrunk to 5. Why? Because he was only a branch leader, not a limb leader. He thought it was beneath him to just be a branch leader and apparently, his attitude trickled down to the people for whom he was responsible. For all I know, Ralph could have been referring to Kris' ex. But it struck me that there were possibly a lot of way corps who had big dreams. John Hendricks, in his spinoff CRF, did a seminar on the hope. In it, he said he figured there have been 20 billion people exist all time and that we as knowledgeable believers had a golden opportunity to have special responsibility and privileges after the return in the new heaven and earth. That this was part of our hope. I don't believe JH himself was one who had "frightening" ambition, but some people who listened to that kind of message just might. Does anyone here have any stories or recollection of people who had ambition that was "frightening" in twi?

quote: So, there's 2 possibilities here. 1) vpw lied, and the entire Tulsa story, from arrival through exit, including the snow and the incidents involving speaking in tongues, was all one big lie. 2) vpw-who has been proven to have lied on other occasions to us- was telling the complete truth, and a bunch of angels went around lying to him. Whenever the devil gives you 2 and only 2 choices, they're both wrong. In the movie 'Ghost' Whoopie Goldberg's character, the hookie pook lady tells Demi Moore's character, whose husband (Patrick Swayzee) had recently died, "Look! Either 1) I'm making all this up, or 2) your husband is alive!" Both bogus. Husband was dead; not making it up; got info, ironically, from 'angels' (devil spirits). No, VP didn't lie. Why would he have to? The apex of that whole Tusla trip was that he met Stiles, they spent time together, and he SIT. Either he met Stiles, or he didn't. Why don't you guys question whether he actually met Stiles or not? Because he DID. That's all that matters. Why would he have to lie about that? Gullible? Who is more gullible than someone who has heard the truth, tasted of God's grace and mercy, and then dismissed it just because of someone else's weakness of the flesh. Yeah, the devil believes in people being gullible. It's one point of temptation he gets a lot of mileage from. I feel like the guy in John 9 who was healed of blindness. You say "give God the praise, for this man (VP) lied about angels!" Whether he lied about angels or not, I don't know. All I know is, whereas I was blind, now I see. I wasn't physically blind, but I was broken hearted with no help in sight until I got rescued by this "cult". Praise God!

quote: vpw was exposed as a fraud over a decade ago, in front of you at the GSC, and you STILL call him "Doctor." You darn well DO care. At least be honest with us even if you're going to lie to yourself. That's just your biased opinion. I said I still value pfal. You call that "care". Whatever.

quote: In TW:LiL, we see him documented telling the lie about the Tulsa blizzard that never happened. When a twi researcher went to document the blizzard, they discovered the only "evidence" of one was vpw saying so. When that was brought to his attention, he didn't say "check again, I was there, there was a blizzard, look harder at the weather reports, check your dates", etc. IMMEDIATELY, he jumped to "Well, angels must have been telling me there was one, All we really know is that VP, distraught, said he heard a voice on the other end of the phone speak of a blizzard. There was no actual blizzard. The result was that VP stayed there longer and this allowed him to be led into tongues. Would an angel lie? Compare with 2 Kings 6. Very funny. King of Syria orders a hit on Elisha, who prays for the Syrians to be temporarily blind, and lies to them (v. 19) leading them to Samaria, the capital city of their enemy. No kidding the bands of Syria came no more into Israel (v. 23b) after THAT! There's no problem here if readers don't make one.

quote: I may be mistaken, but I think Kris may have also related a similar experience in her book. Been a while since I read it. Do you remember if there is anything like that in the book? At one point, her mother found out about VPs doctorate from another parent in the neighborhood whom Kris called Mrs. Potter. Her mom also didn't waste any opportunity to remind Kris of this. I'm reading through it a 2nd time. It's a quick read and I want to see if I can figure out who the people are from their fake names. Already got 2 I didn't catch the first time. But overall, her mom was more concerned with the brainwashing aspect of it. Any concern about VPs doctorate was to support that mom thought Kris was being brainwashed. That's what I see there.

quote: Are you serious?? The people who called him on his crap, who caught him in his lies, who tried to report his abuse were immediately thrown out, declared to be possessed so that nobody would listen to what they had to say. Many people tried. Rascal, I was talking about his enemies, not people in twi. People in twi questioned his research and of course his morals, but I don't recall anyone inside twi ever questioning his doctorate. The enemy source that comes to mind is the article about twi in the 'Mindbenders' book. The guy who wrote that book is/was a real piece of work IMO. He was an insufferable, sarcastic blowhard. But I don't recall him saying anything about VPs doctorate. He may have; I just don't recall it. BTW as an aside....one of the so called benefits of pfal was that it 'enables you to separate truth from error', right? That's why I wasn't afraid to read the Mindbenders article; that's why I'm not afraid to come here. Simply watching TV or reading a newspaper gives me all the opportunity I need to practice separating truth from error, however.

quote: The VPster used to describe "revelation" from God like this - we don't demand it from God or tell God to tell us or act as if we're gettin' piped in news from on high all the time, we simply.........."believe"....................and if God has something to tell us, He will. Sounds OK to me. This is consistent with what VP allegedly told CG about the trustees, that..."they think every thought in their head is revelation". For instance, let's pay the WC full time. Oops. So, another example of someone failing to 'simply........"believe"..........' would be if he/she lets circumstances make them unpeaceful, uptight, angry etc. so that if God has something to tell them, He can't. Is that kinda what you mean?

If he wasn't really a doctor then why didn't anybody call him on it. He had tons of enemies while he was alive; why didn't any of them use that more. I don't really care what might have been at stake that he was or wasn't a doctor. His enemies nit picked about some things, but not that. Why not, if the evidence was so overwhelming that he wasn't really a doctor?

quote: Actually, Home Depot is no. 30 on the Fortune 500... Just out of curiosity, where does McDonalds rank? You have to scream to be a fast food lunch manager.

quote: I'm glad to see you don't have any scriptural or even some other reasonable objections to what I wrote. "God possessing" isn't one, as it doesn't relate to what I wrote. If you really think it does, 'splain if you would and I'll try to show you the difference. Come to think of it, I couldn't tell you where in pfal it says "Christ's eyes behind your eyes, etc." if it isn't in session 5. But I believe the comforter Jesus himself spoke of is the gift of holy spirit, a necessary tool for doing the works of Christ. The only reason I said God doesn't possess us is to illustrate that it is necessary for us to act. We have to do something for Christ's eyes to be behind our eyes, etc. It doesn't just happen. God needs our consent. Don't like the word 'believe'? Remember Philippians is written to the church, the saints in Christ Jesus whom God has begun a good work in and whom, presumably, expect God to continue to perform it. That is the basis for God working in you to will and to do of His good pleasure. Do you have to be a pfal grad for this to happen? No.

Of course. I'm just sayin' that if anybody is free to buy a Dr. John record, t shirt, concert ticket, etc. even though he's not really a doctor....then anybody is also free to still value pfal etc. even though HE is not really a doctor. It's simple. You are intolerant. You want to demand from people what they can and cannot value. Good luck with that. That's what a lot of us got into twi to get away from.

quote: Nowhere in the Bible does it say that "we" can get people born-again. Not our job. The best you can hope for is that, by expounding on your personal beliefs, you will convince someone to agree with you. May I remind you, as well, that the primary purpose of Witnessing and Undershepherding, according to page 2 of the W&U syllabus, is to get people into the PFAL class. In other words, like it or not, we were, essentially, an unpaid sales force for Wierwille's flawed product line, the PFAL series. This is just another tired example of "straining at a gnat and swallowing at a camel".

quote: What did you think it meant johniam in PFAL when you heard "eyes behind your eyes, ears behind your ears".....? Gift of holy spirit, which gives us the capacity to do the works of Christ. God doesn't possess us. We, as individuals, have to do SOMETHING right for this to happen. And, BTW, God was definitely "needed" for this to be possible. quote: I think this "absent" topic gets wrangled over as a point of fact so much because it becomes important to some people as to whether VPW was right or wrong. It sure does.

If he's not absent then why did he himself say "it is expedient for you that I go away"? Yes, it's Christ in us and he's the head, but he's still a man with a physical body. His 12 disciples had the privilege of being around that physical body. We don't. VP taught that we in the church age can do MORE than Christ's followers could do before this. We can get people born again with our witnessing; fleshly and inconsistent as it is. Jesus couldn't get Judas born again. But you guys have to deal with "expedient that I go away". Sorry.

quote: How about that through the accomplished works of God through Jesus Christ that mankind has an antedote for sin. That mankind has access to God, to eternal life, to peace, joy and the other fruit of the spirit, SPEAKING of which, that by SIT mankind has absolute proof of Christ's finished works and that he's coming back to reward us and ever be with us. How about THAT? That's something worth teaching. And that, to me, encapsulates the whole problem with TWI. Yes, that was taught, I learned it first in Sunday school in a Methodist church but I digress. TWI taught that but in practice they acted as though Jesus Christ never existed. That all we had to do was say, "I'm sorry" when we sinned. No mention (in my memory) that a Christian should seek Christ's help in turning our lives from sin to live more lovingly. Speaking in tongues was vaunted above the accomplished work of Christ its meaning and its purpose...in my opinion. If I remember correctly "Dr." went as far as to say, "The Word takes the place of the absent Christ." That's very serious error and borders on blasphemy. You were taught SIT in a Methodist church Sunday school? Whoa! SIT never stopped anybody from asking God for help. Not me, anyway. I think VP said the gift of holy spirit (comforter) takes the place of the absent Christ. That's why it was expedient that Jesus go away. Jesus doesn't go away, no gift of holy spirit. I don't see the "blasphemy" and I don't have a problem with the word 'absent'.

quote: You are correct in observing that Kris has changed names and other details. Some of this is done for obvious legal reasons. Also, some changes were made as a vehicle of literary license so that the gist of the book would appeal to a broader audience than just Way followers. (An example of this is when she refers to baby dedications as baptisms. Even though this isn't specifically accurate, it is a way to state it that will be understood by a broad audience in a general sense.) Yes, there is a thread that deals with the book as well as an audio interview on the front page. I tried to access the losing the way stuff on the home page. Denied. Guess I'll have to hold those thoughts in abeyance.

quote: If I were to refer to Mr. Wierwille, it would not be to mock his legacy or to poke fun at him. Rather, it would be directed at those who still wrongly believe he is entitled to the honorific despite his academic dishonesty. In other words, there would be no need to call him mister if willfully ignorant sycophants didn't insist on referring to him as Doctor. Good to see you on here, Raf. But who here even does this. Yeah, when I'm at fellowship if his name comes up we still call him Dr. Wierwille, but here I call him VP. Does any regular poster call him doctor? I don't care about his honorific whatever, I just still value his contribution to my LIFE, indirect as it may be. Dr. John, the night tripper isn't really a doctor is he?

Gary Curtis was a member of the 1st way corps. I did a search for him. No luck. On page 5 there was a Rev. Gary Curtis who was involved with something called the way ministries. They were getting food to low income people in CA. Thought it might be him, but then it gave his background and this guy was doing something in IL during a time that twis Gary Curtis was, well, in twi. I know he translated pfal in Spanish. I remember him translating for Gen. Cabillero at the '77 ROA. Not sure if he knew any other languages. At ROA 1994 LCM said that Gary Curtis had left twi and there were now no more 1st WC in twi. He said he heard it from Roman Steciew (sp.) who was in CA at the time.

quote: Not telling everything you know is only a lie (of omission) if your intent is to give a false impression. God never told Israel that He wouldn't bring the Gentiles into the fold. He DID say that Israel was special, and gave them His commandments. They chose to believe that they would be the only ones. As far as a coverup, no, that's Adam and Eve (Gen. 3:7); or, less facetiously, David after bedding Bathsheba. God wasn't happy with that. Somewhere in the OT Jezebel wanted to kill all the prophets of the Lord and some guy named Obadiah hid them from her in a cave. So much for being "subject unto the higher powers".

quote: Standing for a cult leader......not the same as standing for "The Pledge"....Know what I mean, Vern? Would you stand for a priest? A bishop? A rabbi? Any one of those might be considered a "cult leader" by someone outside his faith. In 10th grade (69/70) a guy got grabbed by his collar and literally jerked out of an assembly for not standing up for the pledge of allegiance. That guy put himself in harm's way more than a few times. He had communist ideas and he didn't like having USA worship (as he perceived it) rammed down his throat.

quote: You have obviously never bothered to read the "Actual Errors in PFAL". Not in years, but I probably posted on it. So what? quote: I'm talking about things that are clear-cut. Throughly and thoroughly do not have different definitions, as Wierwille insisted. Every single word that has ever existed in any language started out with one meaning only. It is a natural occurance that more meanings evolve. I have an Oxford dictionary which gives 134 different shades of meaning for the English word 'run'. VPs point is good that you can wash your hands thoroughly, but you can't wash them throughly. He's allowed to make that distinction. Speaking of "facts"........ Kris' book arrived at my house yesterday. I've read almost half of it. She doesn't use some peoples' actual names. I'm sure she got plenty of legal advice along these lines. She also said that Uncle Harry day corresponded to the day of his death. He died in Oct. of '77; Uncle Harry day was observed in March every year. If I was like you, I would dismiss the whole book as "unfactual". This leads to a question. Waysider, you seem to be as informed as anyone about all things GSC. Is there a thread which discusses Kris' book, Losing the Way?

quote: Yeah, after something like that I wouldn't have heard a word either. The sad thing is, your experience happened in 1983, but it didn't stop there. I had a similar experience long after that with another leader. Screamed his head off. Wonder if the screamathons continues to this day. There's nothing wrong with twi wanting to honor the word of God like that. It's similar to being expected to stand up during the pledge of allegiance or during the national anthem at a sports event, but if you have to yell at people, then you lose too much of the spirit (usage 4a) of the act, or whatever.

quote: "Always Stand when a Man of God enters the room" Not only is it one of the most egocentric things I have ever heard but I also had that yelled at me once when some frustrated dipsh!t area coordinator burst in while I was sitting on a toilet 1983 or so...a branch leader whom I have respect for walked in a living room to address us twig coordinators. We didn't stand. He immediately says how spiritually po'd he is that we didn't stand. Lectured us for about 3 minutes. Don't remember anything he presented to us after that.

Jbarrax said: So Johniam, do you believe all those things that were in PFAL? You know, the ones I listed above that have been specifically proven to be wrong? Then I said: Sorry, can't discuss that here. Wrong thread. Must be nice that they let you be off topic but not me. You must have some special decoder ring. Now comes Waysider: OK, I get it, John, you teach "the hope". What about those other things that have been shown to be erroneous, such as throughly/thoroughly, kingdom of heaven/kingdom of God, etc.....Can you still teach those now that you know they're inaccurate? It is one dimensional to try to put a 34 hour class in a little box. As though anything that (IYNSHO) applies to one part of the 34 hours also applies to everything in the 34 hours. I don't "know" that those things are inaccurate. "Proven to be wrong"??? PHD scientists believe that it is "proven" that there's no God, no creation, etc. I'll concede one thing. In pfal there's the trimmings and there's the turkey. The things I listed in my other post are the 'turkey'. The most important things to be gleaned from pfal. The things you listed are the 'trimmings'. These things VP used to support his claim that there is a God breathed word that didn't come from the minds of the writers. These things VP used to whet our collective appetite for the words of scripture, word studies, collaterals, etc. VP was always encouraging us to just read the word. At a weekend in the word he once said that the best scope of spirituality you could possibly build in your own life was done by just reading the KJV. No collaterals, no word studies, just read the word. That doesn't fit the often accused profile of VP wanting to control our every thought. LCM morphed into that, but VP wanted us to read the word for ourselves. Out of one side of your mouth, you say that VP/pfal was rigid; either his way or the highway. Now you yourself are rigid. You say, "now that I know they're inaccurate". Again, I don't "know" they're inaccurate. I don't "know" that there's no God like some PHD scientist does. So, Waysider, who is REALLY narrow minded? Who has really been "tampered with". One more thing. As I said, there's the trimmings and there's the turkey. The turkey stuff (IMO) is set in stone. Salvation by Jesus Christ is a done deal. The gift of holy spirit is unto and upon all them that believe. The hope is guaranteed. But the trimmings are open to debate. Is it wrong to disect pfal? No. Is it wrong for you or anybody else to conclude something different than VP did about 4 crucified, dechomai/lambano, etc.? No. I think God wants people to do just that. I think God would rather we spent some of our time examining His word like that then spending ALL our time in the world. What I question about you is, that like you accuse VP of, you aren't doing "research". You already have your mind made up about VP and that's all you're going to ever see no matter what. BTW, I expect Kris' book to arrive in my mail in a few days. For whatever that is worth.

How about that through the accomplished works of God through Jesus Christ that mankind has an antedote for sin. That mankind has access to God, to eternal life, to peace, joy and the other fruit of the spirit, SPEAKING of which, that by SIT mankind has absolute proof of Christ's finished works and that he's coming back to reward us and ever be with us. How about THAT? That's something worth teaching.