johniam

Waysider: "Valid scientific studies" conclude that there is no God and all religion is delusional.

Nothing wrong with studying the brain...or anything else, but all the research they could do doesn't negate freedom of will. Abigail thinks something traumatic happened to me to make me post the way I do. Several months ago she asked me what happened. IMO, it doesn't matter what happened to my brain or anything else. I (all of us) have free will. I will make good choices and I will make bad choices. Nobody's past experiences innoculates them from making ANY decision. That's what the Leopold/Loeb analogy is in support of. I was 22 when I got in the word, but I find no relevance in that. It's just walking by the senses. I would be embarrassed to hold up any bad experience I ever had with females as justification for any time I was ever an idiot about something. Even if I never had any bad experiences with females whatsoever, I am human, therefore I would still be capable of being an idiot. Same for everybody else.

Loy Craig Martindale, full name of the man who succeeded VP as president of twi. He was well received at first by those of us on the field, but within 2 years after VPs death several high ranking clergy left twi and started their own groups taking thousands of people with them. LCM did not handle this well. He just took a lot of abuse at first, then tried damage control and got people to rally around him, then became very abusive and kicked anybody who looked crosseyed at him out. His presidency began in 1982 and ended in scandal in 2000. He is now reputed to be heavily medicated for depression and no longer a clergyman. Others can fill in many more blanks. quote: And...just so you know....most women are actually experts on sexual predators....we don't get through this life....attractive or not....without running into our fair share. You make it sound like all sexual predators are men. quote: PFAL was wicked and deceitful Yeah, and according to Rosie O'Donnell, the bible is hate speech.

quote: The other thing that comes to mind is that something reall, really screwed up must have happened to Johniam in his formative years. Something so awful and tragic that he was never able to recover from it. No. Nothing worth complaining about at THIS age. This statement made me think about Leopold and Loeb. From what I've heard and read, they were raised privileged. One day one of them woke up and went duh, let's kill a 15 year old boy, I've always wanted to do that, y'know. Whatever it was, there was no traumatic event in either of their lives that preceded what they did that I ever heard. Do you know anything about this? I also heard that one of them was killed in prison early on, but the other genuinely repented of his deed and was able to help underprivileged people later. Good thing Clarence Darrow was their attorney. I just think women get away with stuff in today's world. Payback, perhaps. Men used to get away with stuff a few generations ago. Example: Andrea Yates. Imagine Caryl Chessman arguing he had post male menopause depression. My thoughts are not utterly consumed by this topic. Too full of a plate.

We were forced out in 1994. We survived the debt purge and the homo purge, but not the unproductive evil purge. The new area coordinator came to town and everybody in every twig had to meet with him. There were 2 meetings with this guy and our twig coordinator. And yes, the tire size and me changing diapers was the kind of stuff they brought up as indicative of a SPIRITUAL problem. Still makes me laugh. If VP was behind that he never would have gone that far. At least, not if the ministry had stayed the size it was when he fell asleep.

How about this... My wife knew the size of our car's tires and I didn't. They also spotted me (not my wife) changing our young son's diapers at an ROA. That's just "plain wrong"...I guess.

quote: So now you are an expert on being an attractive woman? I don't have to be an attractive woman, or even a woman to comment on this. You guys are all experts on sexual predators, right? Speaking of comical, Roseanne Barr once made a joke about men. She set it up really well acting like she was going to say something praising men on some level. Then she says that men are really useful when it comes to reading maps, because only the male mind could conceive of one inch equalling 100 miles. Not true. The female mind is just as human as the male mind. The female equivalent is...that only the female mind could conceive of one minute of emotional outburst equalling 1,000 years of positive social change. Gotta be SOME reason why they keep doing it. Not all women are given to emotional outbursts and not all men are pigs.

quote: Its a sickness. It truly is a sickness. Unfortunately, none of us here are really qualified to treat such a sickness. Even in the world of psychotherapy few are able to successful treat those who are so deeply ill. But somehow, without any degree in psychotherapy, you "know" that I'm "deeply ill". You guys are just like seasoned wayfers from back in the day. Anything anybody says you process according to the unofficial GSC "foundational class". Just like wows. You haven't said "en garde" yet, but the implication is the same. Twinky: One post you say I'm off topic, then I'm causing healthy discussion. Two mints in one?

quote: The credit for the good things that happened to people belonged to God through the Lord Jesus Christ. But, just as Wierwille plagiarized the scholarly work of others, he wrongly attributed the credit for all the benefits to himself and his damned class. Same old, same old double standard: praise God, not VP, but blame VP, not the devil. Chockfull: Just for the record, VP was dead by the time John Schoenheit's adultery paper came out. Someone else sacked him. quote: Having johniam here in these discussions serves as a guidepost of HOW FAR BOUNDARIES WERE MOVED IN TWI.....thanks john. You're welcome. Glad to be of help.

What VP did to Sarah does not constitute "sexual molestation". It wasn't his intent, nor did it do any damage. She married, had children, and she and her husband continue to support a spinoff which follows in the foot steps of VPs teachings. How foolish to assign damage and blame where none exists. I believe most of those women consented. At least, at the time, thought it an honor to serve the man of God. There's no way he could have kept that up for more than 10 years if all those women immediately responded like the girl in Marcia's story. He was already under fire for being a "cult leader". If there had been any evidence whatsoever that he was routinely drugging and raping women the media would have been all over it. Most of those women were Ok with him doing that. I don't buy the 'authority negates consent' BS either. You can't have it both ways: either they consented (at the time) or they didn't. Nobody's letting VP have it both ways, but women today can consent at the time, then claim they didn't consent one day or ten years later and everybody believes them. Nice double standard. Being an attractive woman is what LCM called an "arche". A position of dignity. A position of power. It can be that for a guy too, but not nearly as much. Throughout history any woman who is reasonably attractive will have a vehicle of power. Back in the day, when someone got themselves a new car, the tradition was they would take the car to a rural road and see how fast it would go. 100mph? It was possible then. A car has a sphere of power to it's owner. It's natural to wonder what can I do with this power. So it's only natural for women to wonder what they can do with whatever power they have as attractive women. What will happen when I wear this outfit around this crowd? How often do men stop what they're doing and look at me when I walk by? Research. That's not evil, it's even prudent. But it must make your blood boil if any man, minister or not, can anticipate your thoughts and take advantage of you. Sexually. Financially. That must hurt. 'Made the world a wilderness' indeed. I read John Schoenheit's adultery paper once, ten years ago. It was a word study. It made sense. The #1 scripture I think of on that subject is in Proverbs. A wound and dishonor will he get. Not good. I really did benefit from being in twi much much more than I suffered anything. I don't believe VP is near the monster some of you make him out to be, but he's got to have some 'splaining to do. That's good enough for me.

quote: See. Admit. Shoulder. It's not about VP, it's about Jesus Christ. I'd rather reach, touch, help. Yes, the more I read your posts, the more I think you would like to reach out and touch. It sure would explain why you work so hard to defend a sexual predator Do you know where those words come from? I didn't use them haphazardly. They are the governing verbs in each chorus of Joe Fair's song 'One by one'. (if I could reach just one, if I could touch just one, if I could help just one, one by one) Do you think Joe Fair is a pedophile also? Just for the record, all of you are seated in the heavenlies, not just me. Instead of being thankful and enjoying your guaranteed eternal life and the down payment gift of holy spirit, you want to wallow in shame and bitterness for the rest of your days. Glad it's you and not me. Kris' book did answer one question I had. I wanted to ask Excathedra, but didn't have the nerve. The question was, do you believe VP really believed the yarn about adultery is OK, or was he knowingly doing something he believed was wrong? He really DID believe it was all OK. The part where he told her "a man of God needs lots of women" something like that. Gideon had 70 wives. Solomon had 1,000 including concubines. David had 19 sons by almost that many women. Jacob had 13 kids by 4 women. God Almighty doesn't have a problem with men simply having a sex drive and being opportunistic with it. How much "meaningfull consent" did any of Gideon's wives really have? Or David's or any of the others'? VP did violate consent if he drugged anyone. He could have seen on the faces of some of those women that they weren't blessed. He was self serving. But he wasn't a pedophile! A sexual predator is a sexual predator PERIOD???? No. Interesting that a few years ago a woman who consentually had sex with VP multiple times was here. Didn't take long for venemous posters to run her off. Just like black democrats are with Clarence Thomas and Herman Cain. Just like feminists are with Sarah Palin and Michelle Bachmann. Like I said, glad it's you and not me.

quote: "Be not high-minded, but fear:" Romans 11:20b Do you realize how Wierwille had to warp and twist and slash the Word of God to make it so this verse could not be applied to HIM? There may be more conditions on "seated in the heavenlies" than Wierwille and some of his followers want to face. quote: However the fulfillment of that - "seated in the heavenlies" - isn't completed yet. No "slashing", just reading what's written. Romans 11:13 says for I speak to you gentiles. Does that mean Christians don't have to "respect". No, but whatever "high-mindedness" is found in a Christian didn't prevent them from getting born again. Context. Our hope is not yet fulfilled, but seated in the heavenlies means we can see a lot of things from God's point of view unviewable to those dead in trespasses and sins. It looks as good to me now as it did 35 years ago when I started going to twig. quote: John, redefining the intended meaning of "moved boundaries", as it applies to this thread, does nothing to add to the discussion. The discussion was started by someone who thinks VP is worse than the Penn state guy, a pedophile (alleged). I dispute that. You opened the door. Just because I have an alternate definition of "moved boundaries" doesn't violate the discussion. You call me heartless because I dispute some of your conclusions? Why don't you tell the victims of the Penn state guy and their families that their plight isn't as bad as victims of VP. NOW who is "heartless"?

Comparing VP to the Penn state guy and now the Syracuse guy is fabrication. quote: Maybe it's just me.....but why do I always get the impression that your posts almost always distract from the topic, especially when the spotlight shines on the sins of wierwille? Just when DOESN'T the spotlight shine on the sins of VP? quote: After all these years, johniam.....can you now SEE the evil of wierwille and his predatory ways? Can you possibly admit to yourself that the man was a wolf in sheeps' clothing? Can you shoulder the truth behind the wierwille-worship and the twi-cult? See. Admit. Shoulder. It's not about VP, it's about Jesus Christ. I'd rather reach, touch, help. They should make a movie about Kris' book. Anthony Hopkins (Hannibal Lecter/The apostle Paul) could play VP, George Chiklis (the Commish/the sheild) could play Chris Geer, whoever played the bailiff on Night Court could play LCM, Jessica Alba could play Kris, and Anne Hathaway could play Excathedra. She was not referred to in the book, but she could be another victim. This movie's getting expensive. Seriously, I think that book was mainly intended to be read by non twiers. It hit me as not as abbrasive as GSC. But if I had no twi experience I'd be reading along and...what???? German shepherds???? These people are Christians???? Yeah, that would be fun to watch someone's reaction while reading that part. I'm not defending all of VPs actions. I do not believe that the word he taught is negated by any of his actions. I gotta admit though, if I'd heard about any of this stuff in the 70s when I first got in the word, it would have concerned me. But, again, the biggest "moved boundary" for me was from dead in trespasses and sins to seated in the heavenlies. Sorry if you can't relate to that anymore. To me it's very real.

Last night I saw what most of you would consider to be the "feel good movie of the ... decade". This film is disturbing. It takes 'Thelma and Louise' up a few notches. It's called 'Hard candy'(2006). In it, a 14 yr old girl, whose friend was kidnapped, raped, and killed by a pedophile who met the friend on the internet, texts with someone, meets him at a restaurant, allows herself to be taken to his house, then drugs him, ties him up, tortures him, castrates him, and kills him, all in the name of 'cleaning up the community'. The guy was a photographer who got underage girls to let him film them. He had kiddie porn in his house, but it is unclear if he was really the one who killed the girl's friend. By the end of the movie, I would feel safer if the girl was the one who was killed.

quote: All who stayed in twi for any length of time had boundaries moved. Agreed. For example: Rom. 8:1 - There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus... That and many other scriptures moved boundaries in my life. I'm thankful for it.

quote: Oh please, Johniam, it's not all about you. Or all about VP. The very first post on this thread MADE it about VP without any hesitation. Like so... quote: Sexual predators and cover-ups are making news again. The Penn State scandal involving Jerry Sandusky, a defensive football coach under Joe Paterno, and young boys has rocked the college football world. A whistleblower broke the story....... And last night, the Board of Trustees fired Graham Spanier​, president of Penn State, and Joe Paterno​, the legendary coach of the Nittany Lions. YET.......The Way International has black-listed and denied any "whistle-blower" who came forward regarding sexual predators like Victor Paul Wierwille and L. Craig Martindale and others. Books have been written....detailing the sexual predatory ways and destruction of lives. quote: Is it MORE evil to be a sexual predator of young boys? Yes, it is. This is a no brainer. This guy Sandusky allegedly molested KIDS over a period of at least 15 years and you're comparing VP and LCM to this? In Kris' book she admitted to cheating on her husband with another guy in the area for a time because the other guy made her feel more loved. She wasn't a young girl; she was an adult. She knew VP was married. What? The cult made me do it? Pressure? Yes, but she could have refused. A woman she named Becky refused. So did GSC alum Valerie52. That 10 year old kid in the shower with Sandusky had no power to refuse if the account is true. Last night on ESPN Sandusky told Bob Costas he's innocent. He said he was "horsing around" in the shower, snapping towels, but no rape. Costas asked him if he was sexually attracted to young boys. This is priceless. He said, "Attracted....SEXUALLY? Uh, I don't really see it that way." I'm not buying it. He's toast. That's like Clinton saying he didn't have sex with that woman or define sex.

Yesterday I was cleaning the windows of a Chinese restaurant. When I'm inside the place I can hear the employees talking to each other in whatever Chinese language they speak. But yesterday 2 English words broke the pattern...'Penn State'. Reminded me of that movie 'Revenge of the nerds' when the nerds are looking for a frat house and an Asian man says several words in an Asian language before saying the word 'nerd'! I see a lot of outrage about the Penn state thing, but it makes me wonder where is the outrage about the Catholic church? They don't need a motorcoach; they have rectories and private offices. They've had this set up for 1600 years and counting. Who can say how many thousands of times young men and women have been abused and preyed upon by them? Where is the outrage? The archbishop of STL has said the biggest issue in todays world is the abortion issue. We have terrorism, bad economy, drugs, immigration, and the Catholic church's own issues with sex abuse, but somehow those are back burner to abortion. If the pope did what Penn state has done, there'd be a lot of priests looking for work elsewhere. Could it be that a religion is just a better hiding place than a college? A local chiropracter in IL has been arrested for improper touching of women customers this week after several complaints. In the late 90s a Detroit Redwings player (Sheldon Kennedy) had to testify against a junior hockey coach who had allegedly molested several teens over a period of years, including Kennedy. The then GM of the Redwings said he didn't like Kennedy before this was revealed; thought he had a bad attitude about authority/adults. Now he could understand. The damage has been done for the victims. Now they're going to go through the abuse all over again because of media people who care more about promoting themselves as "caring, responsible journalists" than they actually do for the victims. As for VP, he's dead! Nobody is saying the Catholic church should be destroyed because of all their abuses and nobody should; they do a lot of good around the world. God will sort it all out eventually, but today is man's judgement. If someone decides they want to be Catholic, even if they know about the abuses, then that's their choice. End of discussion. And if I choose to fellowship with a twi spinoff......

Where HAVEN'T you?

quote: Whatever happened to "God is no respecter of persons."? Not a thing. Any person who confesses with their mouth the Lord Jesus and believes in their heart that God raised him from the dead has access to the deep things of God. Again you speak with forked tongue. You think VP should be penalized above other persons for his evil, but you don't think God's people should be rewarded above other persons for their good.

an update: A year ago I posted of a guy I know who was attending a current twi fellowship and said he liked it. No longer. It seems they kept pushing him to go WOW, relocate, for the cause. This guy's 47 years old. He's divorced, kids are grown, nothing forcing him to stay anywhere, but at 47, who wants to 'go and grow'? Not me. They just wouldn't let him enjoy the fellowship.

quote: If the Bible is all that it's touted to be, it should be able to withstand the same sort of scrutiny as a secular work. It should be readable by Christian and Non-Christian alike. A Hindu or Buddhist should be able to read Proverbs and come away with no less enlightenment than a Christian. To think otherwise, borders on elitism. For what it's worth, John Schoenheit used to teach that the ideas in the book of Proverbs were known to that part of the world for 1,000 years before Solomon copied them down. That it was like 'street wisdom'. Riddles. Things to whet the appetite of intelligent folks. That God wanted it in His word. That doesn't exactly line up with 'God breathed' nor with elitism. As for Paul's epistles, AFTER the day of Pentecost, it says the natural man receives not the things of the spirit of God. That's not elitism, it's just 'progress'. If you own a car, you can do more than if you only have a bicycle. The gift of holy spirit is very real. I mean, face it, everybody privately interprets whatever comes to them, whether it's from scripture or some other source. It's always fun at fellowship when some self appointed nazi lies in wait for you to say something prompting them to pounce on you and say "No PI, no PI!" This doesn't help the thinking process. But I don't think it's dangerous to look at scripture as inerrant as long as you can make adjustments and admit you don't know it all. Nobody knows it all except God.

quote: Proverbs 26:4 Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him. Proverbs 26:5 Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit. So which is it? This is not a contradiction, it's a choice. If you do what verse 4 says, then your choice (priority) is to protect yourself, because it says "lest thou". If you do what verse 5 says, then your choice (priority) is to try to help the person, because it says "lest he". To "answer a fool according to his folly" is what we today call "humoring someone". Jesus beautifully answered fools according to their folly in Luke 15. The fools are the scribes and Pharisees who murmured and their folly is that they thought they themselves were "just men who need no repentance". Jesus served them a full meal, beginning with 2 appetizers, parables about people who were rejoicing, and then the main course, a parable ending just short of the response of a foolish elder son who was resentful when he should have been rejoicing. Jesus tried to lead those scribes and Pharisees out of their error by "answering fools according to their folly. He did this in other places as well. In Mark 12 Jesus answered NOT fools according to their folly. Beginning in verse 13 the Pharisees and some Herodians tried to tag team him about giving to Caesar or not. This time he answered their question with a question. We were taught to do that in TWI. THAT'S when you do that. When you answer a question with a question, then you are definitely "answering NOT a fool according to his folly". I agree with Chockfull that debate is a good thing. However, if it's God's word, it needs no human checks and balances. God's always right and He's all love. Not so the US government.

Yeah, beginning in 1969 there were 12 teams in each league and 6 teams in each division. So you played 18 games each against the other 5 teams in your division and 12 each against the rest of your league. 162 games. Mathematically precise. Even before divisional play started it was like that. Before 1961 there were 8 teams in each league and 154 games in a season. 22 games against each team, no remainder. From '61 to '68 it was 10 teams/162 games/18 games against each team. If they make it 15 teams in each league it will force at least one interleague series each week. Part of me says no, too weird, but another part says hey, this could be interesting.

This series was weird in that there was no history between the 2 teams. One 3 game interleague series in Texas in '04. That's it. During the first 50 years of the 20th century there were probably a lot of WS matchups like that, but with expanded playoffs and interleague play this becomes more unlikely. The 1965 WS was like that, ironically involving another team which used to be the Washington Senators. The original Washington Senators won 3 pennants and 1 WS championship when Walter Johnson pitched for them, but never against the Brooklyn Dodgers. So the Dodgers/Twins '65 matchup was unprecedented. Good series, too. Seven games. Won by the Dodgers. Koufax shut the Twins down 2-0 in game 7 at Minnesota. Texas became the 4th team ever to lose 2 WS in a row. The Yankees were the first ('63/'64), but immediately before that they WON 2 WS in a row and '64 was the 29th year of a run in which they appeared in 22 of 29 WS. That will NEVER happen again. The Dodgers lost in '77 and '78, but with the same manager, they were the only team in the 80s to win as many as 2 WS championships. Then the Braves lost in '91 and '92, yet appeared in 3 other WS winning in '95. This Texas team's legacy is far from over. During game 7 I could not relax knowing how powerful Texas' hitting lineup is. Pretty much every hitter in their order made a contribution. The guys you hadn't heard of as well as the ones you had. I have no inclination to gloat over Texas; they handled themselves like professionals in every way. As for gloating? Nyger Morgan, Brandon Phillips, and Marty Brenneman. Each of them will certainly renew the hostilities next season at the drop of a hat, but at least this should shut them up for a little while.

quote: Most organizations with a "success" rate like that would be horrified, and would halt and completely examine every inch of their program to see where the failures were. Would they? Enron had a "success rate" didn't they? Oops. Your selective cynicism can be very funny.