johniam

quote: Yes, Jesus addressed major confrontation in Matthew 15 [TO the Pharisees].....but where in the Scriptures does Jesus verbally assault his men, his disciples? Even Judas, the sop was given. Anger? Venom? Where is it? What about the Apostle Paul? If someone can point me to those scriptures, I would like to see them. If someone can show me wierwille's fiery anger was justified.....I will consider. I couldn't show justification for anger I never saw. Jesus reproved Peter (get thee behind me, satan) and Judas (when he said the ointment should have been sold and the money given to the poor)in scripture. He must have at least raised his voice, but no 15-20 minutes and no venom. Paul must have at least raised his voice when telling Barnabus that John Mark would not be travelling with them anymore (Acts 15:37-40)and when confronting Peter in Gal. 2:11-14. It makes me think of times I heard or saw others get yelled at. A 1987 Monday night football game in which Bears coach Mike Ditka grabbed receiver Emery Moorhead's face mask and screamed at him. Ditka years later lamented that young players can't take getting yelled at anymore and he couldn't coach if he couldn't do that. I once did janitorial work 3 times per week for a business office. Once while waiting to get paid I overheard a man in a cubicle yell at a contractor on the phone saying he would give them no more business. At another work place I heard a store mgr yell at an assistant mgr for poor performance. I sometimes wonder if military indiscretions can be traced to how they get yelled at in boot camp. I got yelled at myself a few times by twi leaders, but nothing I'd call venomous. VP seemed to have huge expectations for corps and clergy. Ironic, considering that part of pfal where he says he spent a week with a man who said he didn't sin, but he could get real angry and yell. There are times when people get angry and yell in or out of twi. That's just people. But I can't say VP was justified for any of that; I never saw him do it. Perhaps if I did I might feel differently.

Didn't they tell us it's available to walk by the spirit 24/7? I don't need to walk by the spirit to get dressed, get in my car, drive it, do my work, etc. My whole day is consumed with things like that. SOME down time maybe, but when Jesus walked by the spirit he just spoke and did things that were right, sometimes on the fly. He told Peter flesh and blood did not reveal this to him. Once I lived with a couple; my room was down stairs, theirs was upstairs. I had spent probably an hour in my room and I walked upstairs to the kitchen and the man came in and told me that I was walking with God by deciding to come upstairs. ????? He said he needed to talk to me right then. ???? Can't remember what he wanted to talk about. quote: I personally learned through the A.C. that all of this kind of stuff - "revelation", whatever - happens very quickly, very fast and in relation to how I normally think and act. Glad you said that. This is weird. I lived with this believer in a 1 bedroom apt. It was Sunday afternoon. The roommate wasn't there. I sat down and started reading the funnies. At that time I did not normally read the funnies. Wasn't part of my habit patterns. Yet, I just found myself reading the funnies. One part of the STL Post-dispatch Sunday funnies was something called 'our own oddities'. People would send in stories or anecdotes and the paper staff would select a few of them and illustrate them with a brief cartoon. That day. one of the selections was a woman who found a contact lens which had been stuck in her eye for 4 years. I spent 1 hour reading the funnies and stopped. Just then my roommate came back. Within 1 minute he said he couldn't find one of his contact lenses. I quickly told him with confidence that it was in his eye. He looked at me weird and checked it out. No luck. Fifteen minutes later he checked again. Bingo! I told him I believed God worked in me to read the funnies which led to the story about the lost contact lens and that was why I felt compelled to read the funnies when I normally wouldn't. He looked at me funny again. The next day he worked with our twig leader who lived with the area leader. I never heard about the contact lens again, but I suspect my roommate told the twig leader what happened and asked if this was possible. Next thing I knew I was going to be twig coordinator when the current one went in res. Yet, to this day I don't feel comfortable saying I was definitely walking by the spirit. Oh, sure, you could make a case for it, but is that proof? Maybe, maybe not, but that was what I thought of when you said "in relation to how I normally think and act".

quote: Education is defined as "the process of training and developing the knowledge, skill, mind, character, etc. Instruction is defined as 1) the act of instructing; education, 2) knowledge; information, etc. given or taught, 3a) a command or order, 3b) any of the sequence of steps to be followed as in doing, using, or operating something, 3c) a sequence of bits, specifying an operation to be performed. Indoctrination is defined as "the process of inculcating ideas, attitudes, cognitive strategies or a professional methodology. It is often distinguished from education by the fact that the indoctrinated person is expected not to question or critically examine the doctrine they have learned." This reminds me of a few things. I once did a word study. There's a verse in Proverbs quoted in Hebrews. So I thought it might be interesting to look at the old testament word and the new testament word. I don't have a bible with me so I can't remember exactly which verses they are, but the gist of it is...my son, despise thou not the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him. The OT word for chastening is musar, which is translated instruction pretty much every time it's used in Proverbs. The NT word in Hebrews is paidiea (verb)/ paideuo (noun). That word, according to Bullinger meant what we refer to as education. Interestingly, in Luke, it's used when Pilate said I will chastize (whip) him and release him, but from Acts onward its meaning is more like a system of education. Acts 7 Moses was 'learned' in the wisdom of the Egyptians and Acts 22 Paul was 'taught' according to the perfect manner of our fathers. 2 Timothy 3:16,17 it's 'instruction' in righteousness. Thrilling huh? <_< I think that anybody who is enabled to educate others will be tempted to cross the line from instruction to endoctrination. A teacher, a military drill sergeant, a judo instructor, not just religious instructors. Yeah, we were like a sales force. I don't have a problem with the doctrine, but twi shouldn't have constantly tried to guilt people into being "committed beyond their life time". IMO.

Ex: You still do. It just feels different. I think about what Paul said...that single people care about the things of the Lord but married people care about the things of this world. I think that transfers to kids as well. You know God hasn't gone anywhere. I pray that whatever these problems are God will give you closure, healing, whatever you need. Skyrider: Aw, c'mon. I don't think of any of you as evil. Overtaken in a fault? Conformed to this world? Maybe, but not evil, or dark.

I'll throw this in here...I believe in the concept of "walking with God". That's what the AC was supposed to help us do, but "walking with God" implies that God is in the equation. If the first thing that pops in your mind is 16 keys or endless one liners, then where's God?

No, I was. It was an aside. But the part about somebody turning white as a sheet was definitely laying on of hands, not just praying for someone. As for what you said on the first post, I remember Pat Lynn once admitting that she once felt not too spiritual at some meeting and she was leading the meeting and at the end she asked if anyone needed to be ministered to, figuring that she could have the AC grads in the room do the ministering. But everybody in the meeting wanted to be prayed for (18 people) so she said she did it and it went well. But yeah, it feels awkward if someone wants you to pray for them and you don't feel inspired.

quote: So I finally asked him 3 questions: Do you believe in God? He said yes. Do you believe in healing? He said yes. Would you like me to pray for you? Mind you, we're on the floor and it's kind of busy, so this time he hesitates, shrugs smiling, and says, sure why not. So I prayed for him. Took about 10 seconds quote: B) vpw would have reproved you. He was rather specific that you would HAVE TO "operate discerning of spirits" FIRST- and used his supposed experience where the minister was "white as a sheet" because the spirit smacked him when he tried to minister to the other person. I think VP was talking about the laying on of hands. Just as a matter of etiquette, it seems like these days there are many situations where you want to be real careful about putting your hands on other people, devil spirit or not. I didn't lay my hands on the guy, just prayed for him.

Expectations? Before I took the AC I'd heard that it was a "servant's class". I was already a twig coordinator for 2 years before taking it. I thought taking the AC would make me better at "serving" the people in my twig. Sadly, I can't say that it did. Don't think it made me WORSE, just not noticeably better.

Yeah. Back in the 80s I worked part time at a Target store. It was a Saturday. Busy morning. The system was...each department had a dept. head, a 40 hour regular, and the rest of us were part time. On this particular day, the 40 hour regular was in charge. By this time I'd worked there for awhile so the others knew I was a "Jesus freak" but thought I was OK. The 40 hour regular was not feeling well that day. He was preoccupied by having to do much work...setting up endcaps and other promotions. Whenever I was with him, five minutes wouldn't go by without him vocalizing how bad he felt. Said his stomach hurt. So I finally asked him 3 questions: Do you believe in God? He said yes. Do you believe in healing? He said yes. Would you like me to pray for you? Mind you, we're on the floor and it's kind of busy, so this time he hesitates, shrugs smiling, and says, sure why not. So I prayed for him. Took about 10 seconds. He says that's it? I said yes. He goes his way and we separate. Five minutes later he walks up to me excited saying he felt much better. Wanted to know what I was into. Talk about witnessing with consent! He said he was Catholic and that his mom made a good impression on him about faith stuff. Never came to a fellowship, but overall it left a good taste in my mouth. As for ministering one on one to another wayfer, I don't recall anything out in public; only at fellowship.

quote: Remember......A Leaf on a Mighty Tree? Chapter and verse, please. Remember......Twigs, Branches, Limbs? Chapter and verse, please. Exodus chapter 18, entire chapter. It's just delegation of responsibility regardless of terminology.

I remember hearing that Claudettee Royale blew off a career at Metropolital Opera House to go in the way corps, but her ability was no delusion. Metropolitan Opera house? Dunno, but she could've at least gotten her foot in the door. How about this.... "The word IS over the world!" "God told me to pay the way corps full time salary!" My personal favorite... VP sinned, therefore Christ isn't coming back! Couldn't resist.

quote: To a great degree I think that paradigm is the incorrect one to sort through these kinds of issues - because it disconnects the individual's experience from what they're evaluating, when in fact the individual's experience should be the one that they rely the most on. When The Way states "experience is no guarantee for truth", the individual ends up having to accept a given "truth" as in fact true, with no further means of validating or understanding it. In fact, for many Wayfers it hasn't mattered whether they actually understand something taught as much as knowing it, ie, being able to recite it from memory. So an individual ends up floating in a pool of knowledge with no need of validating, experiencing or understanding it in a personal way. This reminds me of David. Saul wanted him to have the best "state of the art" armor he could have when fighting Goliath, but David hadn't "experienced" that armor. He stuck with his slingshot and smooth stones based on past success and it worked. If God is really involved stuff like that will work. TWI used to say "it's not true because you experienced it, it's true because the word says so" or something like that. They could have included "it's not FALSE because you experienced it" as well. quote: ..........I think that I've validated, for myself, what parts to keep and what to toss. Skyrider. You've actually KEPT something from twi??? This is big news.

Reminds me of the movie Pretty Woman when Richard Geer was trying to buy that old guy's business and he said he knew a senator who would keep something in appropriations indefinitely, but he was bluffing; just used the senator's name to stall for time.

Not much. I heard about people getting reproved for saying the word 'Christmas' or 'Easter'. I remember LCM saying over and over "Merry Christ is dead!". But no actual war stories for me. We don't get caught up in the hype, but we have a tree with lights and ornaments. Kinda nice. Outside our home and fellowship, however, almost nobody will say "Merry Christmas". They all say happy holidays, have a nice holiday, stuff like that. I notice this the most while working. This week and last week I'll be cleaning windows for the last time before Christmas day and when they either pay me or sign the receipt that's when they say something about the holidays. But usually not merry Christmas, although I wouldn't be offended if they did.

quote: Without being able to leech from something like the Jesus movement, splinters will never find the vitality and numbers that TWI fell upon, and squandered. So you're saying this "Jesus movement" (whatever that is) is the rightful owner of these people? These people have no free will to choose anything for themselves? If they go to ONE Jesus movement fellowship they are forever owned by the group? Forever obligated to go to only Jesus movement fellowships? If that's true... Then the Jesus movement stole people from Protestant denominations, who earlier stole people from the Catholic church. Not buyin' that one. quote: Oh, lookie! They are gonna have W@lt3r Cumm1ns teach at the 2012 SOWERS young adult advance. I saw WC in Chicago in October. He's looking real good. Lost some weight. He teaches as good as he ever did in twi. It was great to see him. For the last 10 years or so he's been working with a guy named Danny Bader. Nothing that you describe about splinter groups is actually going on in the one I'm with. Where do you get your information from?

I have a comparison between TWI and splinter groups. In 1987 I knew that in Sept I would be traveling to Anaheim, CA. so 1 month earlier at the ROA I went to the Way of the USA tent and asked them if there was a twig I could go to while there. The first person they referred me to was Rob Kehoe, who referred me to Dan Moran, who gave me a name and number of a couple who ran twig 1 mile away from the motel where I was staying. It was nice that this was possible, but most motels have, in their directories, directions to Catholic and Protestant churches in the area. But for a small group like twi this isn't always possible. Last August, I travelled to New Haven, CT. I asked my fellowship coordinator if there was a Chris Geer fellowship in the New Haven area and I was told that CG didn't endorse fellowships he hadn't been to because what if it was run by a$$#oles. So I couldn't go to a fellowship there. The fellowship I now attend has much the same feel as any twig I ever attended in twi, but they don't even mention twi most of the time. Works for me.

Actually, it sounds like a variation of 'um'. Remember back in grade school teachers were always trying to discourage us from saying um after every other word? All it is, is verbalized punctuation. Nobody says the word 'comma'while speaking. Words like um or uh are a spoken comma. These days, athletes and politicians say uh or um frequently when interviewed. Sometimes it is very annoying.

Muh, muh, guh, guh, luh, loh, lay....it was real....natural. Couldn't resist.

Haven't flown myself since 1996, pre 9/11, but this past August my wife flew to Hartford, CT (Bradley Airport) and back. It was her first ever plane flight. She says they treated her well. Before the flight back, I went through the screening so I could be with her at the gate. I always carry a small pocket knife with me for various purposes. I forgot to leave it in the van. Bradley has it now. But it wasn't a big deal. Overall, based on what I'd heard, I was pleasantly surprised at how uninvasive it was. I suppose Bradley is a relatively small airport. I don't know when and where I'll fly again, but I won't be as concerned.

quote: I am just curious you seem to be very pro-TWI and pro-vpw.... Why do you come to GSC when the purpose of it is to help people walk away from what you are in support of.... If you Don't support TWI or VPW ummmm what do you like or dislike about each? Clear up my own ignorance.... Not exactly pro twi. My family was forced out in 1994. Although my wife and I didn't meet until 1985, we each took foundational pfal in 1977. So after 18 years we were forced out. I have posted many unflattering things about twi on GSC, but I still try to separate what people do from what God has done. Some GSers are not very tolerant of this. I don't currently support twi, financially or otherwise, but I was in it for 18 years. The dominant memories I have are of being loved by my brothers and sisters in Christ and visciously hated by twi's enemies. When I was in high school I was stoned every day, yet, people who didn't hang with me were at least civil to me. Now, nobody from my high school wants anything to do with me. Not other ex stoners, nor Christians. Nobody. They're all bigots...or at the least, very fearful, easily manipulated by a media label. I've paid a price for choosing twi, but I won't deny they caused major help in my life. "Give GOD the praise, for we know twi is a sinner". Yeah, well, at least twi was there for me at a critical time. I don't think I would have taken my own life were it not for twi, but I probably would have been in and out of prison. TWI gave me new friends allowing me to get away from my drug friends. My support of twi is for what they did for me in the past. I still go to a fellowship run by ex twi people. Interestingly, I just found out there is a current twi fellowship in the STL area. Thought about just going there and pretending I'm a new person for grins, but...naw! As for VPW, I never knew him personally. As the main mouthpiece of twi IMO he was pleasant. On 2 occasions I met him up close, once at a weekend in the word, once at the house of His healing presence at a ROA. Again, both times, pleasant. Everybody here portrays him as this uber driven sex maniac. I have known several people going all the way back to high school whose lives revolved around their sex lives and who acted down right self righteous over how much sex they got, similar to someone who is self righteous over their church attendance, or over their abstination from eating meat, or whatever it is. You don't have to be religious to be self righteous. These people, all male, acted like they were morally superior to anyone who didn't make sex their number one prioroty. I never got that from VP. You could say he didn't act like that around certain people or at certain events, but that kind of thing is difficult to hide. I like pfal. It still makes sense. They can micro analyze it all they want; I still SIT, I still get prayers answered, I still have peace in my heart. I shudder to think how my life might have turned out without twi/pfal. VP taught pfal, whether he originated the material or not. quote: 1) Why don't you, johniam, go to twi home fellowships? 2) Why don't you abundantly share to twi and further their efforts? 3) Why do you hang with splinter groups and NOT the "genuine" groupmarch? I think I've answered those questions, but shortly after I stopped going to twig TWI sent a few abs checks back to me telling me to give my money to whoever is teaching me the word. Weird, huh? Anybody else get a twi "rebate"?

quote: Now, now....he's trying to change the subject and lob in an insult. The only reason you started this thread was an angry reaction to stuff I posted on the sexual predators thread. Go ahead, continue lecturing me on how morally superior you are to me because I hate and you don't. Just for the record, VP defined hate as... 1) intense dislike 2) the absolute hate of the devil, only possible to those born of the seed of the serpent among humans BTW, any wayfers ever fly airplanes into megachurches? Or gay rights conventions? Or RCC or Jewish gatherings? I guess TWI was never committed enough to their "hate".

quote: but especially by telling them WHO TO HATE. You sure know who to hate, don't you?

Like you parrot everything you read on GSC? You don't get what free will IS. It doesn't matter what anyone tells you in the name of education, science, religion, or even authority. With free will you can accept or deny ANYTHING. Just like TWI, you guys think your logic is so air tight, so perfect, so unblemished, that for anyone to dispute your "findings" is abomination. You keep claiming that TWI is/was that way, but YOU are that way. TWI taught me a healthy cynicism for "valid scientific studies". Of course, free will doesn't guarantee good decisions, but it DOES supercede what anyone tells you. You ALWAYS have an alternate choice.

Free will rejoices against scientific studies as mercy rejoices against judgement. Yeah, thanks Waysider for posting that link. Landover Baptist realized that "unsaved" were lurking on their site and cut off their water. Should get a few grins on this site before that happens.

Hendricks (CRF) is teaching "warrior tongues"? I went to a CRF fellowship from 2000-2005. I recall something about families of tongues, but no warrior tongues. Is this recent?