johniam

quote: Steven Hassan, in his book Combatting Cult Mind Control: A Guide to Protection, Rescue and Recovery from Destructive Cults, lists what he feels to be the four main types of cults: 1. Religious cults -- those focused on religious dogma. 2. Political cults -- those focused on a particular political dogma. 3. Psychotherapy/Educational cults -- those which hold workshops and seminars to provide “insight” and “enlightenment,” usually in a hotel meeting-room environment. 4. Commercial cults -- which believe in the dogma of greed, and manipulate people for little or no pay in the hope of getting rich, usually through pyramid-style or multi-level marketing organizations. Hassan maintains that the deciding factor of whether a group should be labeled with the term “cult” is that the members are secured and maintained as members through what he designates “Cult Mind Control,” which consists of control of behavior, control of thought, control of emotions, and control of information. So...anyone who has a pov contrary to mainstream opinions is potentially leading people into a "cult", and if said person gets a lot of followers, they become a "destructive cult"??? Sounds like propaganda to me. I've noticed that Rush Limbaugh used to refer to conservatives who lack committment as 'moderates', but now he calls them 'low information voters'. Even if this Hassan's grouping of "cults" is true, and even if the majority of people who spent any time in these groups now feel they should have avoided the group, what are/were their alternatives? This is one of my pet peeves with GSC all this complaining, but no substitute. What? Go to college? Learn a trade? Join a church? Those things have worked for some, but not all. One of VPs initial selling points in pfal was that it would be a firm rock in the sea of speculation...or a safe anchorage in the ocean of doubt...etc. Could it be that human nature desires this? Ezekiel says Lucifer has made the world a wilderness and some current poster has a quote from Helen Keller about how security is a myth not found in nature. Perhaps that's why another term for spiritual is 'SUPERnatural'. If any of you are going to denounce "cults" as not able to deliver a firm rock or a safe anchorage, then you need to sell me on what DOES deliver those things. IMO GOD does. I also believe the majority of people who left twi still believe it was a good thing while they were there. Most of those people simply don't post here. Oh, another thing. quote: “Cult Mind Control,” which consists of control of behavior, control of thought, control of emotions, and control of information. Any small town, like Mayberry of the old Andy Griffith show, has/had all these in play.

How comforting and secure it is to know that YOU get to decide which posts are thoughtful and which topics are useful. This place is just as one sided as any other.

Yes, sometimes we had an arrogant attitude toward other Christians that came back to bite us. I think just maybe some of those other Christians had not only arrogant, but venemous attitudes toward us as well. The thing that really separated twi from mainstream Christianity was the concept that the written word of God has authority. Mainstream Christianity still just does not believe that. They take man made doctrines, like the trinity, and claim they are infallible. I hear that now, a church cannot be part of the National Council of Churches if they don't believe in the trinity. Back in the day when twi was a "relevant cult" you could go to any Christian bookstore and go to the cult section and read the table of contents and pretty much all books on current cults had the Unification Church (moonies) and the Hare Krishnas as #1 and #2. The next 3 spots rotated from twi, the Children of God, and Garner Ted Armstrong, depending on which book you looked at. I'm told that Garner Ted Armstrong's group has changed their name and now professes to believe in the trinity. What a surprise! But THAT is what made twi stand out. That's why we were ever called "cult". VPs morality or lack of it has nothing to do with this. It stands or falls on its own merit.

Romans 14:4a - Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? I guess you guys never got that memo. quote: So much of what VP taught has been shown to be inaccurate, misrepresented and twisted to accommodate his dubious agendas, Where has Jesus Christ is not God been "shown" to be inaccurate? How about the dead being dead? How about SIT? Talk about "plagiarising". Anything about those subjects that has been "shown" on GSC had been shown before by "legitimate" Christians who called us a cult.

quote: You have a good feeling about VP because the splinter group you attend, while not being under TWI's authority, like so many other splinter groups base their existence on "the Word VP taught". Thus you and your group, like TWI excuse grievous sin not excused by God, sweep it under the carpet, and live in a rose colored delusional world where all you need are these Bible sharings that you perceive to be originally taught by VP. In reality they were not, as it is very clearly laid out in this site how much of his teachings were plagiarized from other ministers. Groups even excuse that, saying "what does it matter as long as the Word is taught". It matters. It matters to God. It matters to Christians. It matters to communities. Not true. You have some rigid stereotypes to unload. VP is hardly ever mentioned in teachings. Chris Geer has a foundational and an intermediate class. His foundational class is 22 hours long compared to VPs 34. Just out of curiosity, how long is LCMs WAP foundational class? VP is dead. So are his sins. His love, hate, and envy are perished. You know the verse. If we look through rose colored glasses it's about our own sins. I've been with this group 8 years now and I've been in meetings, formal and informal, in which there were discussions about twi way back in the 70s. None of those guys talk about cheating on their wives. They don't even say derogatory things about them as women. We're just people who assemble in the sight of God to worship Him, pray to him, and receive his blessings. Just like the best of times in twi. Do we feel we owe VP a debt of gratitude? Certainly. His twi had 3 main points of doctrine that separated twi from mainstream Christianity: 1) JC is not God, 2) the dead are dead, and 3) SIT is worshipping God in spirit and truth. Yes, we still believe all that. As far as plagiarism goes, who cares? God doesn't. It's God's word or it isn't. Obsessing over who VP may have "borrowed" from is straining at a gnat and swallowing at a camel IMO. "It matters to Christians"??? So you're saying that spinoffs aren't Christians? That's your opinion. We think the communities we have fellowship in are blessed. So there. Call it whatever you wish.

There may be too much info, but not enough time. Time sensitivity is real. If I don't reach any conclusion until I've totally processed the info, then I'll NEVER reach a conclusion. I don't really believe that Rush and his ilk are saying the gospel truth about Obama, but I trust that side of the media more than I trust the other side. Gotta start somewhere.

Waysider, I did not intend to derail the thread. In my mind, being receptive to all that stuff suggested gullibility. Are you really "curious" or did you just not give me a copy of the script? I maintain that credibility being in place is what enabled what you call "nuttiness". I'm not the final word on this or anything else. I made the remark about attacking VPs credibility as a supporting point. In twi we gave VP as much credibility as possible. Here, most people give him as little credibility as possible. To me, this means that credibility is a major factor. Look at how much mileage Obama's gotten because all these idiots assign total credibility to him. VP never tanked the economy. He never mandated government health care and its demons. VP would have ripped his other eye out if he had lived to see this. Think what you will, but pfal makes as much sense to me now as it ever did. I think he represented God quite well.

quote: I'm not judging VP. That's not my job. Coulda fooled me. quote: I don't think that anyone who's still attracted to nuttiness AFTER leaving twi should be allowed to derail it. Nobody posted for 2 full days before my post today. Just exactly WHAT am I derailing??? quote: We can get back to the subject of this thread or we can let it continue as a debate about Wierwille's fittness as a clergyman. Circular quote: Calling things like they are is not moral superiority. Yeah, but isolating bad things somebody did as though the good things don't exist IS moral superiority. quote: It's bad theology and I would say atrocious Christianity to ignore morality. It's opposite what Christ taught, that what goes into a man and what he does with it is more important than simply what goes in. Many things go in - what do we do with it? Christ exhorted a faith towards God and to follow Him. Peeling off morality judgments to avoid the inevitable pain of seeing reality for what it is removes an essential and fundamental step in understanding who we are and possibly why we do what we do. You mean what comes out of a man's mouth is more revealing than what goes in? He told that rich young ruler who tried to flatter him by saying "good master" why call me good? Only God is good. ***************************************************************************************************************************************************************** Sure, we all make moral judgements. Like I said, some people are in authority over other people. If I'm in authority as a parent, boss, supervisor, or whatever, then I can apply whatever I personally think is moral to any situation I want, but that doesn't mean I'm always going to be right.

This preoccupation with moral superiority is quite a distraction. Nobody is morally superior to anybody else. Each of us has an old man nature. Some people are in authority over others. Some people have better discipline than others. Some people are looked up to by others. Some people make better choices than others. Nobody is morally superior. If I could be morally superior to others, then Christ wouldn't have had to die for me. Are you aware that the 3 men who wrote the most scripture all participated in murders. Moses actually did one, David arranged one, and Paul enabled them. So much for moral superiority. God's ways are higher than our ways. So VP didn't represent God, huh? The bible isn't the revealed word and will of God? Jesus Christ didn't fully pay for man's sin? I could continue. I just had to put up with Stan Musial worship for the past 2 weeks. By all accounts he was a good man, but he wasn't Jesus. VP did more for me than Stan. You all judge him after man's judgement, after the flesh, after the wisdom of this world. Glad it's you and not me.

Like the verse says, the wisdom of this world is anything that "disputes" God's wisdom. News story of the year.

1 Cor. 1:20 - Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? Sounds disdainful to me. Looking both ways before crossing a road is not the "wisdom of this world". It's horse sense. Any special ed person can do that. Any animal can do that. Jeez...

Aah. I'm back in business. I make a benign post on a benign thread and it's the news story of the year (lol).

quote... Look how much everybody mindlessly believes everything that has "education" or "science" attached to it in the world. Time after time you have expressed disdain for higher learning and the scientific processes. Care to expound on why? I can't help but notice how much posters here attack VPs credibility down to the minutest detail. He invited scrutiny when he deliberately misrepresented himself. Not ALL education and science is bogus, but they are 2 consistent sources of the wisdom of this world. God has given all mankind permission to disdain the wisdom of this world. VP sometimes misrepresented himself, but did he misrepresent God? If he did, then why is the emphasis always on VP? You asked why ex wayfers seemed so gullible. You've gotten a nice spectrum of answers already. This is merely one more to add to the mix. Believe it if you need it; if you don't just pass it on.

I think it's just credibility. Look how much everybody mindlessly believes everything that has "education" or "science" attached to it in the world. I can't help but notice how much posters here attack VPs credibility down to the minutest detail. One thing that really connected with a lot of people was the pfal session where VP got up from his desk and walked back and forth all slumped over while illustrating how the average Christian ambassador looks (all burdened down with sin not having any fun). He didn't do too much theatre like that in the film class. I bet he developed that over the 15 or so years he taught pfal live before filming it. Again, credibility. VP sold the 'us versus them' aspect of his ministry very well. The ambassador analogy was part of that. It truly is ironic that during the LCM beast years (1994-2000) it was twi people who were constantly worried and burdened down with sin not having much fun. That is, when they weren't basking in the glow of their own sparks over being in the true household or whatever.

Wow! I saw Ramatam in 1972. They played before ELP at San Francisco civic auditorium. Me and my friend were in the balcony half way back on the right and even from there we noticed that April broke 2 strings on her guitar while soloing. Didn't miss a beat; lost no continuity. Amazing. Later I noticed that during Steve Howe's solo in 'I've seen all good people' on Yessongs, he drops down 2 octaves for no apparent reason...unless he broke a string and couldn't think of anything else to do to compensate. Never thought I'd hear Ramatam ever mentioned again.

quote: Once I stopped being afraid of them they lost all power over me. Wow! Fear really IS sand in the machinery of life. Who knew? Just kidding.

quote: (Incidently, I was put on a lighter version of Spiritual Probation (no social activities or tv or secular music and meetings with the limb coordinators for some period of time) because I lied to cover my @$$ and avoid another face melting because I used the wrong something or other on a poster and smudged it. I was told I was close to spiritual death, whatever the f*** that means because of that incident.) What? As a side note, I have always believed that whoever directed the TV show 'Green Acres' must have been a total acidhead. Just the flow of some of the conversations...between Eddie Albert and Ebb, Hank Kimble, the Ziffels, Alf and Ralph Monroe. Mr. Haney and Sam Drucker were downright rational by comparison. But the Douglases were really in another universe. But this....? No social activities or TV???? Spiritual death? Whatever happened to incorruptible seed? Can anybody say, "Boop! Out goes the button?"

The only memory I have of Rosalie is from Living Victoriously (1982). She and Bob Winegarner shared the task of MCing the nightly meetings. She seemed like a cookie cutter charming southern lady. Not much to go on, but LindaZ has posted much about what it was like to work with her. Based on that, I don't think I'd want to meet her, formally or otherwise.

Two months ago I saw someone who has been in twi since the mid 70s. I hadn't seen him since the last roa I attended (1994). He was good to me in twi. He invited me to join a music group in St. Louis which opened doors for me to this day, and he picked me to take over his twig when he went in residence. I owe him a debt of gratitude. But, considering what twi has been like since I left, I wasn't sure that seeing him again would be pleasant. He looked good. He is actually lightened up in some ways from what I remember him to be. He never drank with us back in the day. Didn't seem interested in cultural stuff like pro sports or rock bands. When I saw him 2 months ago we simply did NOT discuss certain things. There were 2 other people there and I didn't tell him why I left twi and he didn't talk about why he didn't, but we played music, drank wine, ate pizza, and had a generally peaceful interaction. When LCM was still the president, every time I ran into someone from twi it was at best awkward and at worst creepy, but things have GOT to have lightened up since then. That guy that I saw was OK. He really did not seem to be overly burdened down with some agenda. Ironic that VPs ambassador theatre routine in session 7 is more likely to be true of twi people than anybody else for the past 30 years, but not the guy I saw.

Someone should throw a going away party.

quote: A learning expierience?.....Learn more than you will in Genesis?Well at least Genesis won't kill you. VP actually said you'd learn more hitching that you would by reading Genesis? Interesting that the book of Genesis has several sex scandals in it. Or was he talking about the band Genesis?

Walter Cummins told the following joke somewhere. Once upon a time there was a potato. It was a girl so it must've been a sweet potato. She was born in wealth. Private potato school, potato college, potato finishing school...she had the best upbringing money could buy. One day she told her parents she wanted to get married. "Married?" they said. "This is so sudden! Who do you want to marry?" She said she wanted to marry Walter Cronkite. "Walter Cronkite? Absolutely not! We won't hear of it!" She says, "But, why?" She was full of tears. "Because he's only a 'common tater'". My final exam for Oral Communications 1 was to do a 5 minute speech. The first minute of it was that joke and I STILL got an A.

quote: I believe devils can cause problems, but that doesn't mean medical attention is dismissed. Some people believe devils can exploit existing medical conditions and in that case, getting proper medical care would thwart them. I totally agree with this. I'll be interested in seeing what the psych history is for this guy in CT.

quote: Hmm...that must be where vpw got his idea, when that guy in the middle of a meeting became incoherent and so on. vpw CONFRONTED HIM on it- when it was obviously not INTENDED but something BIOLOGICAL to anyone with an ounce of skill in Biology, medicine, or Psychology- and sent the guy home. A WEEK later, he arrived home. We never heard of the ordeal he went through, suffering from an obvious, acute incident of an undiagnosed psychiatric problem. Was it a critical dietary deficiency? Chemical imbalance in the brain? A stroke? Could he have dropped dead on the bus? Why did it take a whole week of bus to bus before he got home? vpw never gave him a second thought, either- he told lcm to stop worrying. I don't recall where that thread is about the guy on the bus. I remember reading it, but there's too many unfilled blanks to be conclusive about VPs handling of it. First of all, if it took a week for the guy to get to his destination, then he must have eaten SOMETHING. He must have been coherent enough to buy and eat food regularly, otherwise another passenger would have noticed him and informed the bus driver and authorities would have been called. Secondly, a bus ticket is more flexible than an airline ticket because there are many stops. If I would, say, buy a bus ticket from St. Louis to Los Angeles, I could go to Denver and decide to interrupt the trip by staying in Denver for a few days and then continue the trip to LA later. I've done that before with different cities. How do we know that guy didn't do something like that? Maybe he just didn't want to be on a bus 24/7 for the whole trip and took a day or 2 off just to clear his head. I want to address the whole counselling/devil spirits thing: Most devil spirit footage in scripture is in the gospels. We assume that when Jesus cast them out, then they must have actually been there. Sometimes he counselled people (the man crying in the tombs) and other times he did not. His disciples had similar success, though no details are given. TWI was able to portray themself as more like the 1st century church in many things, but not this. The people I currently fellowship with are acutely aware that just because someone has a chemical imbalance doesn't mean they're possessed. Regarding my children's autism, yes it is possible something like that could be caused by a devil spirit, OR it could be like being born without a limb. Even John Hendricks used to say that some things like that are "the way the genetic cookie crumbles". There was a pitcher for the California Angels named Jim Abbott who was born without a hand. He would have his glove held against his chest by the arm that had no hand, then, after pitching the ball, would quickly transfer the glove to his pitching hand, field the ball (if necessary), and switch hands again and throw the ball to 1st base, or wherever needed. He could do this fast enough to succeed at the major league level. One year he won 18 games AND he once pitched a no hitter. There was no devil spirit that directly caused him to be born with one hand missing, he just had to work harder to accomodate the handicap. I tend to think the same for my sons. My elder son is now 22. He got an attendance diploma from HS in 2010 when he was 19. We withheld his regular diploma so he could still receive services from the school system. He spent the last 2 years going to a work site as he had for half days in HS. His jobs included mostly kitchen work, but also factory work. His organizational skills are very good. At one factory he worked in the shipping dept. where he put products and labels on skids which were to be shipped out. His HS supervisor said once they were making pizzas and he thought (did not speak) that he would need more sauce soon. Not even a minute later, my son, without any prompting, brought the sauce to him. He was just that focussed on not only his work, but the team overall. My wife and I did not teach him that; he does that on his own initiative. He now works at the rehab center at Barnes Jewish Hospital complex. He works in the kitchen, the linens dept., and some other department. I am very proud of him. Yeah. Devil spirits. Right. TWI just doesn't get this. Their credibility is like unto Barney Fife in these matters. Sad.

There's 2 ways to prosper: either have a lot of money, or have no lack. It's possible to have a lot of money, yet still lack something.