johniam

I think the offshoots are proof that there was genuine substance in what was taught in TWI. Like Hope said time will tell, but CES is almost 18 yrs old and several others aren't far behind.

I think those elderly people would be thrilled to be entertained at ALL! People with restricted mobility are like that. I was in a ministry band and we got to play in a state prison. Everybody in the prison was there. This guy in the back looked like a militant Mr, Clean, but he was there. Probably not their musical cup of tea but they were there. I even read once that Keith Richards got busted for possession of heroin in Canada in 1977. His "sentence" was for the Stones to play a free gig in Canada in 1979 for charity. The article I read said there was a blind 80 yr old nun in attendance who said it wasn't her kind of music, but she would come hear them again. You could probably get away with playing that song "Old and in the Way".

Thelema: Yeah! Then even when they put those stupid plastic things on the chain so you COULDN'T tie it off you could still hold it with one hand and wash/rinse yourself with the other hand. That's right up there with ripping off those old cigarette machines where you put money in for one pack but keep the knob pulled back then alternate between pulling the knob next to it back hard and back and forth and you ended up with ten or fifteen packs.

Regarding Pirate's post, I think it would be true to life if Gary and Rebecca ended up getting married.

At ROA '94 a woman took her 8 yr old son into the girls' shower and his eyes got big fast. Later there was a sign saying no one over 5 yrs could go in the opposites' showers.

OK an update: My 15 yr old daughter says she doesn't have to shower after gym class. Man, when I was in Jr high and high school there were about 40 boys in gym class and we all showered together at the same time. No big deal. Would someone tell why in the name of political correctness this isn't done anymore???????

Didn't you guys ever shower after gym class?

Still married to twife. They tried to divide us, too. Jerkovvvvs!

quote: I would like to follow your analogy through, johniam. If your first grade teacher turned out to be a pedophile, would you revere that teacher for teaching you to add and subtract, knowing that he used the ability to teach as a means to molest? Would you hold the organization in high esteem, even though many of its employees knew the teacher was molesting kids, but did nothing? Or would you just heave a sigh of relief, that you got through without being hurt yourself? Obviously, the analogy is not a 100% match. I think it would be more accurate to say that the teacher used the ability to teach as a means of making a living first; THEN chose to molest. Also, it's easier to replace a teacher than a MOG. I would definitely not revere an abusive teacher. My 10th grade social studies teacher picked up a prostitute and later stabbed her 55 times in a church parking lot. That show 'Hard Copy' did a piece on this (spring of 91). I thought he was a boring teacher but when this happened he was the hockey coach and it shocked a lot of students. The school even offered counselling services to any who wanted them. But either way there's only so much I can feel someone's pain if it isn't mine. The organization part of the analogy doesn't fit. TWI is a private organization and the teacher works for a govt school system. But no I don't revere VPW the same as before. In fact, I'm glad he's dead.

It's a fact that some were blessed and some were harmed: those who were harmed shouldn't resent those who were blessed and vice versa. To me, it's like finding out later that your first grade teacher was a pedophile who harmed some of the other kids in your class but not you. Yes, THIS was the guy who taught you how to add and subtract etc. which you still use today, but someone else WOULD have if that guy hadn't. We were taught that VP taught God's word like it hadn't been taught since the 1st century implying that nowhere else could we get this, but we would've been OK somewhere else too. Right now I can't fathom where I would've learned speaking in tongues, JC is not God, or dead are dead without TWI but I still would've been OK if God had anything to do with it.

The King of Zor called for war, the King of Zam he answered, they gave a war and nobody came! Geo a Monkees fan? We'd a never thawt eet.

Jane, you ignorant slut.

For instance: There's always going to be labels. Without labels (any noun is a label, isn't it?) every conversation would take forever. We can use labels as a vehicle of either judgement or love. When Jesus reproved those people who criticized him for healing a woman who was bowed and couldn't lift herself up on the sabbath day, he called the woman a "daughter of Abraham" saying "shouldn't she be loosed from her burden?" That's a label. It's not the tools we use it's how we use them. I still say the best indication of what Jesus WOULD do is to look at what he DID do.

quote: looking through his eyes, how should we respond to the questions raised? You seem to think there's only one right answer. I'm just not sure of that.

Raf: Don't read posts by Mike for awhile; he seems to affect you. Also, substituting something to put in your mouth would probably help. I smoked for 2 yrs ages 15-17. One night my buds and I were headed downtown and I had a pack with 19 cigs still in it and with no premeditation I quit. After 3 days I gave the pack to a friend figuring I really did want to do this. The 5th day was the worst but I held out. After 84 days I lit one up confident it wouldn't become a habit (I was tripping and y'know, you wave it in front of your face and see it go by 10 times or so) and it didn't. My dad smoked Camel non filters from age 20 till his smoking related death at age 52 so I don't miss them. Quit you like men, buddy. Rah rah, you can do this!

Isn't there a line in Rush's song 'Tom Sawyer' that goes 'catch the spirit, catch the spit'? According to Time magazine, the expression 'spittin' image' originated in the south: if a man died, then his son was said to be the "spirit and image" of his dad. We all know southern people can't talk right (no offence Sudo) so 'spirit and image' got transliterated into 'spittin' image'. So we actually want God to spit in our direction because that means we are the spirit and image of our Dad, right?

If he were here he would not be here as the Messiah, that work is finished; he'd be here as a member of a community, perhaps as a minister. He would and did actually walk away from some situations...remember the guy to whom he said "Who made me a judge or a divider over you?"? And how about in Matt 15 where he said "Let them alone, they are blind leaders of the blind and they both shall fall into the ditch"? That was the extent of his 'cult awareness' activity. We really can't know for sure exactly what he would have done as Joe Citizen. Sure he may have gotten involved with something like Diana was against land mines and Bob Barker is against wearing furs, but he wasn't 'all things to all men', he was one thing FOR all men...the Christ!

Dmiller: Michael Fort is Howard Allen's son in law. Don't know what corps he was in or what he's doing now but at the time I left (1994) he was the trunk cordo.

I think the more relevant questions are...1) What DID he do? and 2) What DOES he do? He WOULD do neither of the either/or questions on the first post because today is man's day/man's judgement. He DID...finish the work his Father gave him to do, lead captivity captive, etc. He DOES mediate between God and man, advocate with God on our behalf, etc.

I was at the Emporia AC in '84. Yeah, we did something like that. I don't remember doing that every single night, but yeah it was kind of boring. Steve, was your twig cordo for the AC a guy named Dave L.?

I've said it before. The people who blessed me the most were corps and the people who ....ed me off the most were corps. Corps were in a position to have the most impact. They watched each other's back, too; us non corps all knew don't mess with corps or you'll be in the BC's dog house in a second. I think the atmosphere in the whole ministry changed drastically at some point. There's been talk on GSC how the later corps were somehow not as good quality as the earlier corps. I don't think there's any difference in what people expected who entered the corps, I just think the change in the atmosphere made it tougher on the later corps to be the corps ideal. One of Roseanne Barr's funnier routines IMO was when she said how being a parent was special because you could really mess your kids up for life by saying things like "Didn't I tell you not to talk with your mouth full? ANSWER ME!" I think the corps eventually got a mixed message like that. "Don't you want to be your best for God? Don't you want to love people the way GOD wants them to be loved? Well get busy confronting them and reproving them for every little thing and going through their dresser drawers and looking for objects of "evil" and making them fill out those schedule things, etc." That would definitely make it tough.

I've had slow periods lately, but I always blamed those on my computer. Usually it's fine.

Sky: Yeah, I still have my wedding booklet too. My point was that a wedding vow is to both society and God (sure, it's legal to get married if you don't believe in God, but most people who get married want a clergyman, a man who to them represents God, to bless their marriage) and I contrasted it to that movie in which the minister actually said "we are assembled in the sight of society". quote: the "we" referred to the people present who were witnesses to these vows. But don't those people present represent society as a whole?

Belle: quote: How important is that piece of paper that says they are married if the marriage relationship is a sham? What say all? The piece of paper is only important to society, not God. As such, God can help with the relationship if it goes awry, but the piece of paper is for society only. If a change in the relationship becomes permanent, then another piece of paper (divorce papers) is required by society. A marriage vow IS two fold: in the politically correct remake of that movie 'Father of the Bride' the wedding is in a church. In fact, it's the biggest, most elaborate church wedding I've ever seen portrayed other than perhaps Charles and Diana's. Yet, the minister in this ceremony says, "Beloved, we are assembled in the sight of society...". Nothing about God. The "we" part of the quote is referring to society. The wording is not only redundant, it also suggests a higher form of society within society. An 'inner circle' which replaces God as the moral center. Sounds like socialism to me. But again, a marriage vow covers both God AND society and the accountabilities for each one sometimes overlap, but the piece of paper and the nullification of it are for man, not God.

I've been married 16 1/2 yrs. My vow was to "love, honor, cherish, and sustain her as becometh a Christian husband as long as we both shall live". Those words are vague, but no matter what 'expanded' definition of them anyone can come up with, if I behave badly (get impatient/angry, etc.) then, technically, I already broke the vow. I think each spouse should be on the same page and show some semblance of genuine respect for each other. Jesus said for the hardness of your hearts God allowed for divorce as an option. I think from God's point of view every divorce is a tragedy, but nothing done by people is fool proof. Some people marry for predatory reasons, like acquiring money or kids, but most people don't marry unless they really think at the time that they can make it work. It doesn't always work. Once someone I'd witnessed to who was engaged to be married called me. He and his fiance how you say...opened presents before Dec, 25 (had sex), and he was seriously worried that this would somehow sabotage his marriage. I asked him hypothetically do you think that if a couple did not have sex before marriage that this would guarantee they would never divorce? He said no. I said then why do you suppose doing it before marriage would guarantee you WILL divorce? Both premarital sex and divorce, although commonplace today, still have some degree of taboo associated with them, so people get the jitters I guess, but divorce, though unpleasant, won't sabotage the rest of someone's life. Those people are still married by the way.