Oakspear

God allows the Devil to kill people in the Old Test when people sinned. Can you document one place where it says that the Devil killed anybody? Look up "slew" in a concordance and see how many times it says God killed people. If you're going to take the position that God didn't kill people in the OT, but "allowed the Devil" to do it, what's your documentation?

Great, that's your opinion. It's different than mine, and you're entitled to it, but why do you think that TWI was good?

I am not now, nor have I ever been, a 'nice' person Regarding those who still 'dig PFAL', I have no animosity toward them myself, and in my observation they tend to be a cross-section of 'nice guys' to 'obnoxious twits', just like anybody else. What I haven't observed, at least here at GS, is PFAL fans backing up their positions in any of the docrtrinal discussions.

We've got 'em in Nebraska!

That is very appropriate WW. When the agressive Way Corps were sent to our area after ROA '94, the first people that they went after were folks who, frankly, I didn't want around. There were a handful of people who just seemed to drag everybody else down, and at first I was glad that somebody had the balls to confront them. Then the next group of confrontees were folks who I felt needed to tighten things up, then the next group... Each successive round of confrontations targeted a broader range of behaviors and attitudes. I fully supported (and even encouraged) the initial purges, but became more and more uncomfortable as they progressed. But since they were incremental, I allowed myself to be talked into their biblical correctness. Eventually, like the poem says, they came for me. If I had been tageted initially, I may have fought back more vigorously, but having supported each wave, and having convinced myself of each wave's rightness, I thought it would be hypocritical to object when I was confronted. Ex-wayfers who got out before this time period often cannot understand how we subjected ourselves to all the abuse. While we physically could have walked away at any time, we were manipulated in such a way that we believed that we weren't being abused. Frog in the boiling water.

1979

Other than ROA's and classes, I went to TWI HQ just once. Three carloads of us drove out from Queens one weekend. We drove overnight and arrived Saturday morning. We were fed a late breakfast and spent the day getting a tour of the grounds, then went to Sidney to see the Historical Center (not sure exactly what it was called). That evening we saw a Way Productions show in New Bremen. We were to spend the night sleeping in the cabin in the woods in sleeping bags, however it got really cold and Cliff Adelman came out in the middle of the night and brought us to a warmer location: the BRC! We were awakened in the early morning by a setup crew who were getting the room set for 10:30 fellowship. We were fed lunch after the fellowship and then hit the road back to Queens. No lists, no security checks. We were made to feel welcome every minute that we were there.

The 90's were like the frog in the boiling water, changes crept up so that you hardly noticed them until you were agreeing to things that you never would have considered had they been sprung on you out of nowhere. We got re-involved in TWI in late 1990 after having been away from them for a little over 7 years. Initially things were pretty innocuous, the Corps couple who were Limb Coordinators were pretty low key, and there weren't a lot of demands made upon our time. We went to fellowships when we wanted to, signed up for the classes that we could afford and wanted to be in, no major problems. Parrallel to this were the so-called Leadership Tapes that were circulating. It wasn't presented to me as a requirement, until a few years later when I wanted to go to an Advanced Class Special. Since I hadn't experienced the POP, the "loyalty oath" letter, the mass firing and defections, etc, all that I heard was Martindale's side of the story. It didn't make a lot of sense, but I chalked that up to there being a gap in my own TWI timeline. I pretty much accepted Martindale's version of events, partly because I didn't know anyone who could supply me with any other version. In 1992 we got a different LC, also pretty low-key and inoffenseive, things went along pretty much as before. At ROA 1993 two teams of WOW's were sent to Nebraska. We were not assigned a LC of our own, but were "overseen" by the Region Coordinator. Once again, no real change of pace. It was at ROA 1994 that Martindale had the meetings with WOWvets, Way Corps, and Advanced Class grads to rant about the "homo threat". In my view, this is when things began to change. We were sent a new LC, a newly minted Corps grad who was hot to "smoke out homos" and root out "unproductive evil".

It's snowing outside my window right now. You know, actual snow. I'll double check with my wife and step-daughter, they are angels, after all

I disagreee with that. The word rthat is translated "given by inspiration of God", theopneustos does contain the elements "Theo" (God) "pneustos", which blueletterbible.com says is a dervative of pneō, which literally] means breath or wind. That doesn't mean that the best way to translate something is by taking apart the word and translating each segment literally. Many words pick a figurative meaning derived from the literal root. Even in English the word "inspiration" literally means to breath in, but the word generally isn't used that way.

Okay, fair enough. "Love", or "love of God" is a common translation of άγάπή and άγάπάω, although there are places where they refer to loving darkness, so it's more contextual in I Corinthians 13 than an absolute. But what about the "in the renewed mind" part. What makes you think that Mr. Wierwille was correct there? Since this is the doctrinal forum, let's do a leetle research, shall we? I am by no means saying that Wierwille was always wrong, he wasn't, but let's not assume that he was always right.

Belle said that you attacked her religion, not her. But it does seem like every time templelady expresses an opinion, you're there with a criticism of the LDS church. Kinda like pavlov's dogs, ring the bell, here comes Allan Am I being hysterical?

Okay, fair enough. "Love", or "love of God" is a common translation of άγάπή and άγάπάω, although there are places where they refer to loving darkness, so it's more contextual in I Corinthians 13 than an absolute. But what about the "in the renewed mind" part. What makes you think that Mr. Wierwille was correct there? Since this is the doctrinal forum, let's do a leetle research, shall we? I am by no means saying that Wierwille was always wrong, he wasn't, but let's not assume that he was always right.

You're not plain anymore

If God did talk to Wierwille and tell him that he would "teach him the Word like it hadn't been known since the first century, if he would teach it to others", why did it take so long for God to keep his word? The supposed promise took place in 1942, in 1951 he was ready to "chuck it all" because he wasn't getting any answers.

I would agree with your examples, but not all churches believe that way.

CK: Why do you think that άγάπή or άγάπάω should be translated "the love of God in the renewed mind"?

Not for looks, but attitude: Jack Paglia from Without A Trace

Actually, we chatted once. The pizza thing is an in-joke that Raf and I started at a GS wedding 2 years ago and continue on the forums.

As much as Oldiesman's crap irritates me...and as much as I hate to see rascal have to put up with his insults and attacks, let his posts stand....not because of "free speech"...cretins like Oldies love to abuse the priveleges of free expression...but because it demonstates how blind, ignorant, and stupid somebody can be when they're defending that scummy little cult. Defend your own experiences, but everybody else is a liar? TWI was sweet and wonderful in Oldies' world. What a delusion.

Those two were my region coordinators at the time, and due to Nebraska not having their own Limb Coordinator, they were officially our state coordinators as well. In the immediate aftermath of their dismissal from placements, we were told that Mrs. M had a "five-star" daimōn and that Mr. M had a lesser daimonion which allowed him to be "operated" or dominated by his wife's spirit. We were never told what exactly they did. We questioned how we could trust anything we had been told by either of these two, if they were so possessed. We were told that despite their being "out to lunch", "God covered", and that we shouldn't be worried; everything we had been told, we could keep on doing. :o Within a year, both the M's were at the ROA, and I believe that they are now running a state, if not a region. The same logic was employed when Martindale was booted and his class was retained.

Goes with out saying, brother

No, T-Bone, you make a good point. Despite our best efforts, it is difficult to be objective, to disregard training and teaching that was a major part of our lives.

There's nothing wrong with learning the bible and leaving The Way out of it, in fact, leaving The Way out of learning the bible is preferable to learning the bible while keeping The Way in it.

I like pizza (off-topic remark to see if I get insulted)