Oakspear

The whole line about "if God wasn't okay with sex outside of marriage, he'd have said 'best' instead of 'good'" is a perfect example of how Wierwille pulled biblical interpretation out of his rear end. Who says God "would have" said best instead of good? He did this kind of stuff all the time - it God had meant xyz he would have used this Greek word instead of that Greek word - from a guy who didn't really understand English grammar let alone Greek or Hebrew

If anything, it should indicate that deities do not exist, or at least don't care (but doesn't prove that they don't exist )

I have been in only one life-threatening situation since I left Christianity behind. I was involved in a serious car crash. I was hit on the driver's side of my car by another vehicle that blew through a red light. I remember looking to the left and seeing the car bearing down on me. I am quite sure that I didn't invoke the help of any deities even though I considered that I might not survive the impact.

Best post all week!

What difference should it make? Logically, wouldn't anything that this alleged god made be fit for being a priest of said god?

We as a nation continue to be contradictory about what we mean by not establishing a religion. Public schools cannot have teacher-led prayer, but Congress has a chaplain.

Looks like an analogy to me

A lot of people equate "not believing in God" with folowing or worshipping the Devil Mileage may vary...I have seen though my own personal experience that religious people in general tend to be less moral than non-religious people, including atheists The folks from "Atheists in Foxholes" (see link on previous post) would disagree. I think the people who reflexively jump to praying when in danger are not atheists (although some might be) but folks who are not habitually religious. Sounds like a side bet to Pascal's Wager. In the event that you are wrong, what would you say to Allah at the end of time? Or to the Norse gods in Valhalla?

I'm not an atheist, but I like to take their side in discussions :evilshades:/> Atheists in Foxholes

I always hated starting threads that no one responded to! It damaged my self-esteem! There are certainly a lot of misconceptions about atheists, a poll taken around the time of the last presidential election (or maybe the one before that) indicated that Americans were less likely to vote for an atheist than someone in any other group Atheists are assumed to be without morals, to have nothing to live for, that atheism is a "belief" or a religion, that they are unhappy, that they are angry with or rebelling against God, and that there are "no atheists in foxholes", that atheists cannot be patriotic or that they worship the devil.

After reading some threads on faking "the nine" and related topics, it occurs to me that a lot of what God was supposedly telling leadership to have us do was pretty dangerous and sometimes life threatening! The toe amputation after LEAD was one that stood out. How about the hitchhiking-across-the-country-with-almost-no-money? How about some of the WOW assignments? During my WOW year Wierwille got some "revelation" to send the WOWs and a bunch of other volunteers to the home town of a Corps guy who was in the hands of some deprogrammers to do...well, it wasn't clear what we were supposed to do, but I had a shotgun pointed at my face during the experience!

Good points about Wierwille's mixing up parts of speech... My reaction whenever anyone said to me that "believing connotes action" was to think: "No it doesn't" - believing can be passive, or you can act on whatever it is you believe (Wierwille probably didn't know what "connote" meant either!) After a while I also got a bit confused as to Wierwille's dogmatic separation of the words "faith" and "believing" in the bible, even after we all could clearly see that they were translated from the same root word: faith is a noun, belief is a noun, to believe is a verb... The definition of "the manifestation of believing" also seemed pretty contrived and based on a lot of nothing; maybe because of a a garbled understanding of "manifestations of the spirit" as nine special magical powers The whole concept of "believing for" something owes more to magical thinking advocates like Florence Scovall Shinn than the bible. Someone tells you something, you either believe it or you don't; something is written in the bible, you either believe it or you don't - I guess I don't see anywhere in the bible where gritting your teeth and picturing something real clearly brings it to pass...

Oh yeah...fake growth! An outgoing Limb Coordinator had us split five anemic twigs into ten that were on life support and called it a branch and a "twig area". The incoming Coordinator thought he was coming to take over a thriving, growing area...surprise! With the people leaving to go WOW, into the Corps or back to wherever they came from before going WOW, we were back down to three or four twigs in short order. This was in the eighties. Then in the early 2000's we had to maintain two twigs in town that had barely enough adults for one because Martindale mandated that all Way Corps on the field had to be "leaders of tens" which he interpreted to mean two or more twigs.

Yup...we have "Mainstream" Christians mock the Mormons for their so-called crazy beliefs and practices, but don't seriously look at their own My Catholic family shook their heads at my "cult" involvement while explaining away the flaws in their own church Everybody else's religion is just nuts...not the truth that we have!

..and why assume that "for our learning" necessarily excludes "written to us?

Here's another answer from the non-target audience! I believed in the Trinity because that's what my church told me to believe. I stopped believing in the Trinity because Wierwille did a good job of undermining the credibility of mainstream churches and played a swift shell game with bible verses Similar to Raf, I now think that no matter which position you take you have to explain away verses that contradict your position. My position now is that "The Bible" doesn't teach that Jesus is God or that he isn't, but writers of some books taught that he is God and some didn't and we are left trying to make disparate agendas "fit like a hand in a glove".

No matter what the ones musical taste, the music in the 70's and early 80's was better NOT because of a specific genre, but because there wasn't as much central control over the content and musicians had more opportunity to sing and play from the heart.

It was when I applied the "outsider test" to what I believed that I moved on from Christianity. I started by questioning what Martindale was peddling in WayAP; comparing what he was saying to existing Way doctrine That led me to questioning what Wierwille taught; comparing what he taught to his own "keys to the Word's interpretation That led me to look at the various offshoots, all teaching different things, all based supposedly on the same "keys" That led me to question whether there even could be a right dividing of the bible Which led me to ask myself why I thought there was a good reason to believe that the bible was any truer than anything else For a long time I maintained an agnostic position about the bible, reasoning that it might be true, but did not see any evidence to support that position Eventually I came to believe that it definitely wasn't handed down by any deity and that it contained a lot of factual errors More recently I have formed the opinion that the bible is not only not God-inspired, but on the whole is a pretty immoral book (especially the OT) This all took years...

On Bart Ehrman's facebook page today Ehrman addresses a critic: Didn't we get a lot of this in The Way? (Ehrman isn't saying to do this, he is mocking someone who does do it

I got involved due to a series of events: My cousin, with whom I was very close, worked in the same office as the guy who was the local Twig Leader. He witnessed to her and invited her to Twig meetings. In retrospect, I believe it was a "date & switch" situation. At Christmastime that year I was in my cousin's house (she lived upstairs from me in a two-family house) and her mother showed me a Christmas card which was signed "God loves you and I do too". My Aunt asked me to attend some of these Twig meetings to keep an eye on my cousin At the time I was beginning to question my family's religion and was investigating other religions, as well as having been exposed to other faiths in college. What I heard at my first Twig interested me intellectually and I was intrigued enough to continue attending. At some point I visited my church's clergyman and asked him to clarify some of the differences between what my church and The Way taught. His answers were flip and unsatisfying, I signed up for PFAL that night Within 2 years I was going WOW, far from home

There were titles in the New Testament: diakonos/deacon = one who ministers or serves pretty humble title, for sure but there was also presbuteros/presbyter = elder and episkopos/bishop = overseer these two don't really seem like "servant" titles to me

I was a NYer who got involved in the late 70's - Mr. Fallon and I were in the same Foundational Class together - although I never went back after leaving to "go WOW" in 1980. It always seemed to be growing those first few years before I moved. There were a couple of branches in each of the counties on Long Island (3 for a time in Queens) and a small Spanish language branch as well. There were regular classes and Twigs scattered over a pretty wide area. The Way Home that I lived in used to pack 'em in for our Sunday 10:00 Fellowship (which we perversely had at 10PM! But, and here's the big but...few or no Way Corps grads. The Area (later called a Territory) was run by an interim Corps couple and later Corps grads, but all 8 or 9 branches were run by non-Corps, and in at least one case, by a non-Advanced Class grad. Can't say much about what happened after, but rumors reached me out West that it just wasn't the same when more control from above in the form of Way Corps started taking over the branches and later the twigs

That was what I saw (in hindsight of course)TWI did teach us to question, to analyze, to think, but only outward, never at what TWI was teaching

The only people who I ever observed living the "abundant life" (defined from a physical/financial perspective) were those who had mad etheir pile before getting involved in TWI, or inherited wealth. Our local Twig Fuehrer inherited the fully paid-for house that he lived in when his parents died in a horrible car crash and then lectured the rest of us on how easy it was to own your own home without going into debt. Another guy owned a bunch of rental properties and then sold them all off when he took the PFAL class. The rest of us didn't see too much abundance. While I'm far from rich right now, I've seen more "abundance" since I left TWI in 2001

I agree with you.It never made sense to me why we were "celebrating" Christmas without calling it Christmas