Oakspear

"Kramer" from Seinfeld

"Because You Wanna Be" is the best answer that I've heard so far. A God-believer is going to view certain things as being "of God", an atheist is going to see the same things and come to very different conclusions, a Hindu a third set of conclusions, an believer in UFO visitations still another.

Could you point out that rejoicing for me? I don't see it.

Wordwolf: I believe that it was Dr. Higgins, the osteopath from Chicago, who introduced Wierwill to Bullinger. Rinker was the Korean missionary who suggested he teach people about the abundant life. Stub1: While some of Wierwille's books contain footnotes and give credit, notably JCOP, JCOPS, and some in JCING, there are none in PFAL (the book), RHST, CSBP or any of the "collaterals". The "credit" that Wierwille gave to Stiles, Leonard and Bullinger was: Mentioning that Stiles led him into tongues. Period Mentioning that he twice attended Leonard's class in Calgary, deriding it as long on experience and short on doctrine Claiming that he found out about Bullinger after he had come to the same conclusions himself All of these mentions were outside of his classes, and not included in his books, nor is there any hint at the wholesdale copying of these men's works.

I remember the first year that I got involved in TWI: I was in a twig of over 20 people, a branch of 8 twigs, 8 local branches were grouped into an "Area" (later a "Territory"), there were 7 or 8 Areas in the State. The Region included all of the East Coast from Maine down to DC. Only 8 in the whole country. The last year that I was involved in TWI I was in a twig that included only seven adults (3 married couples) and their children. There were no other fellowships in the state. Two years before the only Way Corps left the state after running a 2-fellowship "branch" and the Limb. We were included as part of the Limb of Missouri and the Kansas City branch, which was over 3 hours away.

Amazing how the smaller that they get the more layers of beuracracy they add. Fifteen regions? I count 11 states that don't have their own Limb Coordinator, probably because there are few, if any, Way people in those states, and six region coordinators who are "overseeing" only one other Limb Coordinator, plus Harve whose region is only one state. I remember at the peak of their numbers in the early eighties there were only eight region coordinators, and some of the bigger areas were subdivided into "Territories" or "Areas" that were the size of present-day regions.

he was really good at organizing his suits in the closet

Not necessarily. Many of us, if not most of us who got involved with TWI had little or no exposure to any kind of systematic theology. We wouldn't know how to identify what was sound and what wasn't if our lives depended on it. Wierwille just did a materful job of marketing his product.

After Martindale's announcement of the lawsuit but before his ouster, he talked about reorganizing things so that the chief teacher and the president were two different people.

Excellent responses. Sometimes GSers who still believe some or all of PFAL get a little miffed at the criticism. Well, the criticism isn't always right, but it should make you think. If you don't want to think, that's a whole 'nother problem then, isn't it?

Most of then time the explanations made only minimal sense, if at all. Would people really wonder why there were flowers at one table and not another? Heck, most wayfers would assume that it was planned that way. How about the "no gifts to Way Corps" policy? The rationale behind that bit of legalism was that us peons were "bribing" the Way Corps for...I don't know what.

For those who can't understand why some of us put up with the legalism, one reason was that it usually crept up on you. Kind of like the urban legend about the frog in the boiling water, crap would slowly and incrementally get worse until you were putting up with .... that you never would have if it just popped out of the blue. Another reason is that often times (at least until the late 90's early 2000's) it wasn't consistant. One leader would be nice and reasonable, and then the next would be a lunatic. We changed leadership enough in our area that we had learned to ride out the bad leaders by laying low and not raising a fuss. I would say it was in '95 that leaders started getting consistantly more prying, and unwilling to let you lay low. Also, keep in mind, that each situation was unique. Every one of us had our reasons for putting up with what we did for as long as we did. For every one who is convinced that he or she got out just before things got really bad, there are others who got out earlier who can't imagine why you stayed as long as you did and put up with what you did. It's all somewhat relative.

Are TWI's doctrines any "kookier" than any others? I don't think so. There's weird sh#t in pretty much any religious system IMHO. So why don't the majority of us spend our GS time critiquing various other religions? Mainly because it's not relevant. What most of us have in common was that we were in TWI. I don't give a d*mn about the Mormons, the JW's or Kabbalistic Judaism because I was not in those groups. TWI doctrine was sometimes used to justify abuses. At the very least the claims of near infallibility helped to keep many people in due to a false belief that "there was nothing else out there". Therefore, picking holes in TWI doctrine, or pointing out inconsistancies is appropriate. While there's nothing in the GS rules & regs against criticizing other religions, it's just not really the point of what GS is all about.

Does the position exist anymore? Martindale was Corps Director for most of the Corps' existance, other than the first few years when George Jess held the position. I seem to remember Harve Platig being called the Corps Director in a Way Mag article shortly after Martindale's ouster. I'm not talking about Corps or campus coordinators, who run the day-to-day indoctrination, of which there were always several under Martindale. Has the title "Way Corps Director" been retired, or does someone else hold the position?

What we control and what we don't changes constantly. Sometimes we make decisions that down the road result in unpleasant consequenses: we don't always see the connection. A few years ago my oldest son was an assistant department manager at the company that I now work for. His immediate supervisor, the department manager, was in the Nat'l Guard and would be gone for 2 weeks. This was my son's first opportunity to run the department on his own, to show the store director what he was made out of. So what did my son do? He spent the weekend at the lake with the rest of the family, sunbathing, without any sunscreen; he fell asleep and got seriously sunburned. Ended up in the hospital with sunstroke (or somethin'). He missed over a week of work. The store director got on his case about the decisions he made. My son maintained that it wasn't his fault. I agree more with the store director. You have to think about the consequenses of your actions. I believe that in any situation one needs to look at what happened and determine whether anything could have been done to prevent it, so it doesn't happen again. Will that eliminate all problems? Nope, because some things are outside our control!

Priceless

Since 401(k) is your money, it has to be "cliff". Profit sharing or employee stock ownership is made up of employer contributions, so would be different.

My problem with faith in general is consistancy, or rather the lack of it. Most folks that I know, or whose works that I have read, do not see the results of their faith on a consistant basis. There is always some "explanation" for why things didn't work out the way that they thought it would. And I'm not just talking about Christians and praying. I'm including Wiccans & their magick, reiki practicioners, users of natural healing methods, and any number of things. There is no way to predict when their trust in their "higher power" will be warranted. On the other hand, if you try something like praying or eating beets, and you get results enough of the time to make you happy, what difference does it make how you got there?

...or what Wierwille said was the "original"...Allan...drink some more coffee before you post again!

Initially, the PFAL class had all three Foundational, Intermediate & Advanced combined into one. Later the "Advanced" was separated out. Still later, after PFAL was committed to tape, the "Intermediate" was separated into its own class. Yeah, eventually PFAL became, depite its origins, different than all its "parents", but I believe that the assumption that Wierwille combined or distilled or cut & pasted "the good stuff", or got rid of the "in-acrit" stuff is unwarranted. Many of us who hold this opinion apparently judge the truth or accuracy of what's in these precurser classes and books based on what Wierwille taught, not on an independent analysis and study of either material. ...and to correct what I said in an earlier post. I lumped Leonard's class in with Wierwille's in an "all classes are bad" category. I had forgotten that Leonard's class was just that: a class. It was designed to teach a few things, then send people back to their home churches. Wierwille's class was the very foundation of his ministry: 2 different things.

I too was impressed with the way the grounds were kept and the attention to detail and all that. In fact, much of what I now practice about orderliness and planning I got from The Way...as well as from my parents, especially my Dad. However, does a nice place and a slick presentation guarantee that what is being presented is any good? I would say not. Does a shabby store front and a less-than-professional presentation indicate that anything is lacking? Doubt it.

Regarding the name changes of various holidays: they just never had the balls to simply not celebrate them. They'd go on and on about how "devilish" this observance and that name was; what? it was less devilish because they called it something else? But no, they'd tell you how "pagan" and "off" Halloween was, or Christmas, but they'd do all the same things but label them differently. <_<

I'm sure that WordWolf will be along to clarify, but while the film/video class that most of us took was different in many aspects from Leonard's class, including gifts vs. manifestations, there is much to suggest that the original class that Wierwille taught was actually Leonard's class. OK back on topic then. What does that also say about B.G Leonard's $100-$130 "Full Bible Courses"? (Well - Duh!) I'd put Leonard's classes in the same category

Time for more important issues...The Mets vs. St. Louis!

congrats Tigers!