Oakspear

I saw one of those "I apologize if I offended you statements on another thread. Wouldn't a real apology be 'I apologize for what I said, I realize now that it was offensive', or something like that? Almost like, "I'm sorry that you're stupid", after calling someone stupid. :blink:

Doubt that I could do more than smile a lukewarm smile and wave half heartedly if I saw my former HFC's. The way I was thrown out on my ear and described by words that included "treacherous" etc, etc. would make it difficult for me to not kick his foot.

Trans Siberian Orchestra and of course Manheim Steamroller with Nebraska boy Chip Davis). Although I haven't listed to the Twisted Sister Xmas CD that a buddy lent me yet

After being condemned by "leadership" for years if someone in my family got a sniffle, it's refreshing to be out from under that cloud. These days, when I have a medical situation, it doesn't even occur to me to pray or otherwise seek divine intervention. And Jonny Lingo, it's not "waybrained" to hold fast to what you have seen and experienced. A good case of waybrain is usually characterized by clinging to Way doctrine that isn't supportable by either experience or the bible. I'll let you know if you're getting waybrained ;)

I don't think so, he was in the "pilot" WOW program, which was a small group (less than a dozen) who were sent out one summer (1969 or 1970) to "move the Word". Their experiences became the basis for the WOW program which "officially" began in October 1970 after Wierwille made a call for volunteers during a teaching at the Rock of Ages '70.

Wierwille and later Martindale, was always good at projecting what was now back into the past. Looking at what Whiteside wrote in TW: LIL about the 1st & 2nd Way Corps who were "in-residence" while she was writing, the whole program seemed somewhat self-directed (Del Duncan, who was in the program, seems to be running it as well) and frankly pretty disorganized. Same with the ROA. I remember doing a presentation in our twig on the history of the ROA and dug out some old Way mags. The first one seemed to be nothing more than a good-bye concert for the summer school students in 1971, if I remember correctly the name was longer, maybe "The Return of the Rock of Ages" or something like that.

Nope!

There are so many variables: when you got in, when you got out, who the leaders were, whether you were a leader or a well-respected long-term believer, were classes being run, how much money you were contributing. They all have a bearing on whether your memories were good, bad or indifferent. Another factor is how much you had invested in believing it all was right; what kind of things you would consider insignificant and were willing to put up with. I agree, in general, with the premise of this thread, that the longer you were in, the greater the indoctrination and the greater the attempts at control. However, the same actions could be perceived in vastly different ways, depending on one's mindset. For example, in the mid-nineties, local leadership made it their business to criticize several aspects of my personal life, and put a lot of pressure on me to change. At the time I accepted this interference, believing at the time that a leader had the right and responsibility to correct "error" in this manner. In hindsight, I now believe that the leader's actions were wrong and that I was wrong to allow it. For most of us who have left TWI there is a line that gets crossed. For some the line was crossed during PFAL and we never really got involved. For others it was the so-called loyalty oath letter, for still others it was actions of local leaders or a realization that there were doctrinal contradictions. But the line usually just didn't pop up from nowhere one day. There was a continuum: at one end was "this is great" and at the other end was "I'm outta here".

hey Johniam, though you and I frequently (okay always) disagree - I believe that your approach on this thread has been one of respectful disagreement. That's what you believe...nothing wrong with that

1969: Wierwille comes up with "Way Corps" idea. For some reason it didn't work out. The only thing that I remember seeing about it was Wierwille saying that he "gave them the privelege to leave" and that they couildn't get it together among themselves. This may be from The Way: Living in Love. 1970: Wierwille brings in another group (don't know if there was any overlap with the 1969 group), pictured above. At some point this group is called "The First Corps". The 1969 group is largely ignored, but is informally referred to as "The Zero Corps". By the early 90's, no member of "The First Corps" (and for that matter, only Martindale from "The Second Corps") still stood with TWI. Martindale declared that some of the "pilars of the church" were to be honored by calling them "The First Corps".

TWI was always about following men, while saying that they weren't.

Why, when someone points out how TWI leaders abused their trust in some manner, others pop up with variations on "Who forced you to do it?" and "Why didn't you check the scriptures?"? Yeah, yeah, yeah, we get it, we are all responsible for what we let people do to us, we are all responsible for not "checking the scripture". The point, however, is that TWI and its leaders abused their trust, and took advantage of people who bought into their lies. What? Is this some kind of spiritual caveat emptor? You deserve whatever you got, because you didn't read Consumer Reports' cult edition?

Every single person who stayed in TWI past graduating from PFAL failed in some measure to completely "check the scriptures". PFAL, whatever truth may be imbedded in it, is full of private interpretation, made-up definitions of Greek words, shaky logic and outright falsehoods. If one "checked the scriptures" using Wierwille's assumptions and flawed methodology, then no real checking was being done. If I teach that in the "original text" of the Constitution the word "President" was really "King" then all the "checking" in the world will still yield incorrect information if you do your research using my incorrect premises.

It's in post #77 quoted by Garth in post#78 Oh, you meant in the bible That's because it's my opinion. It's what I've observed.

Were the "edited posthumously" books published by American Christian Press? I recall seeing Take God at His Word and Living Victoriously in my former HFC's house several years ago. They had the familiar two-tone color scheme and in all other manneer looked like another of the "collaterals". But I didn't check to see who published them. If so, what other books were published by Geer? On a different note what was that book that Walter Cummins wrote? And were John Lynn's books American Christian Press?

According to the Merriam-Webster on-line dictionary, the definition of "denomination" is: a religious organization whose congregations are united in their adherence to its beliefs and practices Wouldn't that define TWI? Same with "religion" and "church". Not much to separate TWI from these words either, othewr than they say that they aren't. And what about "member"? Why is someone who follows all of an organization's doctrines and regulations, regularly gives them a set percentage of his or her income, regularly attends their meetings and classes not a member?

What exactly was the program for a College WOW? Did you live with other College WOWs, or was it simply a witnessing requirement for someone who was in school? What about the in-state program that you mentioned? How closely did it follow the "regular" WOW program? In my mind, what made a WOW year a big deal was You were "sent" somewhere other than where you were from You had to live with people that you wouldn't necessarily choose to live with You couldn't leave your assigned area unless given permission If memory serves, the College, Military, Medical, etc WOWs didn't exist by the time I went in 1980.

Well, I think I'm right even if faith is a belief that God will take care of everything, since there is no consistancy or pattern in that either. Is the God of the bible completely arbitrary? It seems that way. Believing that whatever happens is part of God's unfathomable will is not much different than believing in random chance.

When in a rural area, I usually ask for directions, when in the city, I depend on a map. There are too many people here in Lincoln who grew up on farms and couldn't give you a street address to save their lives! Lincoln has a pretty logical and consistant numbering system for the most part, so addresses are not that hard to find. Some of my ex-rural buddies still want to tell me to turn at the water tower until I pass grandma's house...just give me the d*mn address! Even in the rural areas these days, they've gone to "911" addressses and labelled the gravel roads to help emergency vehicles find their way. I found that to me invaluable when I was delivering newspapers to the small towns and farms 5 years ago. One thing that I have learned, is that MapQuest isn't infallible! I had zero problens since starting to use them in 2002 until this summer. We were in Florida, heading from our hotel to the rental car place where we would catch a shuttle to the airport. The directions had us getting off the freeway and getting right back on; this confused us and we got seriously lost. Almost missed our flight.

Now class...the word "many" is the Greek word abuncha which means "many of a different kind, where more than two are involved, to overflowing, on this side and on that side into manifestation"

I only personally knew one person who went three times, never heard of anyone who went more.

White Dove & Dmiller: Note the word "many" in my post. It means something different than "all" Naturally there were folks that were on their own during the late 80's, just as there are folks who are on their own today. My point is that if you're not the only one, that's one less bit of leverage they had over you. Other than what I read at GS I have first-hand accounts only of what happened here in Nebraska and in New York. In New York Finnegan and most of the rest of the leadership were fired en masse, in Nebraska all but a handful of fellowships left as complete units. And nationwide, when 80% of the leadership and people leave together, overall it's not exactly being alone in the wilderness (for most people). If you think that I'm saying that people left because many others were also, I don't know that, and I'm not saying that. Everybody had their own reasons. However it would surprise me if no one left due to peer pressure. One of things that gripes me is the undercurrent of thought where we GSers (and maybe ex-wafers in general) seem to think that when we got out was THE perfect time. It's incomprehensible that anyone stayed in past the exact second when we left, when for every wayfer who left "just when things were getting bad", or when "The Word was no longer central", or "unscriptual decisions were being made" there was someone else who left five years earlier for similar reasons. Unscriptural decisions were being made in TWI long before the late 80's.

Coercion only works when they have some leverage. People put up with a lot because they were convinced that the altermative was worse. If you can convince someone that horrors await them "outside the household" control is relatively easy. I believe that so many were able to walk away at one time in the late 80's because there were support systems, i.e. large numbers of people were leaving together, often preceeded by their leaders. There was no being cut off from "The Word". A similar situation existed in 2000. Although this time the support system was the internet, for example the Waydale forums, where people could interact, not just read anti-Wierwille screeds.

One could argue that freedom of speech exists outside the First Ammendment, if only as a concept, if not a legal or constitutional issue. True, only a governmental supression of speech is a First Ammendment issue, but it seems to me that freedom of speech and expression is assumed unless the courts rule that an exception is warranted. True also is that there is no absolute freedom of speech. Really, its the marketplace that regulates "free speech" such as Richards'. He can say whatever he wants, but shouldn't be too surprised if he's not invited back and if he doesn't get much work in the future.

How about you said something that was baseless and are now changing the subject...TWI's leaders was certainly "opportunistic" about pointing out when "cop-outs" were killed after they left TWI. Lunchtimes, Corps nights and the so-called Leaders Tapes are even full of rejoicing at the harm that befell people after they left TWI.