Oakspear

Ah...Bless Patrol I did BP at ROA '81, after I completed my WOW year. I was on duty from midnight - 4am some nights, and 8pm - midnight others. One night I'm "guarding" the President's home area and told that only cars with certain colored passes can get through. No exceptions. After a while a black limo rolls up. No pass. I stand in front of it, then walk over to the driver's window to inform the driver that he can't come in. He's a German guy; he informs me that he is coming through, he doesn't need a pass, that The Way International has only one limo, blah, blah, blah.... I'm about ready to yank his foot out through the car window when the back window rolls down and it's Howard Allen. He apologized for the lack of a pass, and for the driver's rudeness. I let him through. Overnight BP was also a great opportunity to get friendly with some of the Way wimmin.

I liked the ROA when I was single. I didn't care about the rain, or the crowded hotel rooms, and all the other crap, not because of "The Word", but because it was an adventure! I hung out with fun people, and got to do a road trip! One year I flew into Fort Wayne and hitch hiked into Sidney to meet up with two buddies who were driving in and were to get the hotel room that the three of us were going to stay in (first night only, after that I was going to tent it). They weren't there! My name wasn't on the reservation and they had my tent. I had to blow what little cash I had on another room and wash my stinky clothes in the hotel washer (my buddies had my luggage too). Backing up a bit, I ended up being invited to a bachelor party near the Indiana-Ohio line when some of thye party-goers almost ran me over. Then got picked up by two women who were driving to Sidney to hunt down the cheatin' boyfriend of one of them. :o I don't think that I paerticipated too much in the sanctioned activities in those days. Going to the ROA with children was another thing though. Rain, complete with flooding tents isn't so much of an adventure when you have little kids with you. Despite the "children's fellowship in the morning, the whole setup wasn't very family friendly IMHO. Combine that with the heavy legaism of the 90's and you end up with a big bummer 1995, the last ROA, was the only one where I brought all 6 of my kids. It had rained before we got there, and rained more after we arrived. We were a stinking, sodden mess all week. Of course, it was now The Class on Living Sanctified , rather than just a place to relax and meet old friends. We spent a lot of time (in between drying out our clothes) getting yelled at for various infractions. Our BC's wanted to caravan with us on the way home, rushed us out before we were ready, insisted on eating take-out in the vehicles, which is fine for adults, but not so fine for youngsters. Eventually they just sped up and left us somewhere in Iowa. The happiest I ever was at an announcement was when our LC told us that ROA '95 was the last

I guess the question would be, since you are tossing the OT in as a common point of reference, where in the OT does the concept of either heaven or hell show up?Many Christian beliefs (yes, I know that this is obvious) are based on a new testament spin on old testament passages.

Judaism is a religion that developed over the centuries. I don't know if you could even call what Abraham had a "religion" under any definition. Sticking to the biblical account, God talked to him personally, gave a few simple rules and guidelines and left it at that. According to the bible, there doesn't seem to have been much of a structure until Moses, just "worship me" and "don't worship those other gods". Even though Moses received The Law, starting with the tablets and continuing with more information over the years, there was no temple, no synagogues, no land of their own, until at least the time of David. Yes, but not necessarily the same interpretation. If you go strictly by the old testament, and especially with the book of Job, Satan does not appear to be the powerful adversary of God as he is portrayed in the new testament. In Job he is admitted into God's presence and appears to have God's permission to do what he does.

..and happy Imbolc to you!I'm on my way to ritual...go Bridget!

This is an "on-one-hand-on-the-other-hand" type of situation. Technically Satan/The Devil is on the same level as the angels, but he is viewed as God's main opponent and the author of death and evil as God is the author of life and light. Very similar to a mirror-image evil god in the way he is spoken of and regarded, even though few would put him on the same level as "The" God. Bramble's point was that Christianity's Satan is viewed as the source of all evil and that there is no pagan equivalent to this.

Gee, thanks for the vote of confidence

Nope, not even close.Even if you believe the bible, Adam & Eve's relationship with God, all the way up through at least the Egyptian captivity and probably up to the babylonian captivity, was very different than "Judaism"

let's pray that newbies will learn how to use paragraphs before they post

You have reckoned correctly. :B) I don't remember the details either, but as you pointed out, we have moved on and learn from each other's point of view.

Let's see, "ministry year" 1985-86: 15th WC would have been on their interim, so 14th & 16th were in residence 11th & 12th FC in residence, 13th FC practicum. Martindale was fired in 2000. "Ministry year" 1999-2000: 28th & 29th were in residence, 30th was apprentice, 31st was candidate (at some point they changed the program from Year 1: apprentice, Year 2: residence, Year 3: interim, Year 4: residence to Year 1: Candidate (similar to old apprentiice), Year 2: Apprentice (required to lead a Way Disciple Group or work on staff) Years 3&4: Residence) "Ministry Year" 2006-07: 36th & 37th are in residence, 38th & 39th are apprentice and candidate respectively. they elimnated family Corps as a separate entity a while back. In the mid-nineties they stopped referring to Way Corps by number and started referring to them by the year of graduation. Pretty close, I do't think that they've had a Corps group in double digits since the late nineties

Partly because I can learn from others here, and they can learn from me. I am not locked into any particular doctrine these days, and have reconsidered my position on many things after a good discussion in the doctrinal forum. I've also gotten others to consider their own beliefs by asking questions and pointing out what I consider inconsistancies. The point of the doctrinal forum is not to beat others into submission to one's own beliefs, or to billboard one's pet doctrine. It's to discuss. After being in what I now consider a cult for many years, I also enjoy analyzing doctrines of The Way, and Christianity in general, that I once accepted without question. On an intellectual level I enjoy the give and take, the debate, the honing of logical skills and critical thinking abilities. I've also learned to be respectful of others' beliefs. Cman can tell you that he and I got on each others' case a few months back, but we both learned soemthing about the other's writing styles and thought processes. Dmiller and I are as different as can be, yet we respect each other and learn from each other. Despite our common (for most of us) background in Christianity, and in particular, the Way, this is not a Christian forum. Christians are far and away the majority, but the purpsoe of GSC is not to promote Christianity (nor to denigate it). I've been a part of GSC, if not fron day one, then from pretty early on, at least week one , and doctrinal is one of my favorite places.

As my kids were growing up in The Way, I noticed a big difference between how we were as teenagers getting involved in TWI and how my kids (and others in the state) acted. Part of the difference was, that for kids growing up in TWI, this was "their parents' religion". None of my kids are particualrly religious.

Funny thing, neither my oldest son, nor me or my ex-wife attended every session, but we were graduated anyway. My son was sick as a dog, but went up to SD anyway, ended up going to the emergency room and missing most of the sessions over the weekend. I was told to teach him the sessions that he missed. On another weekend, another son was screwing around and got something in his eye. My ex-wife stayed in Lincoln with until about halfway through the weekend, I missed the first session because I was at the doctor's with him. Of course, we were "confronted" about allowing "The Adversary" to rip us off from "the greatness of The Word".

what's a gorp?

I don't believe that there is a resurrection.

Is logic cultural? That is, could something that is considered logical in one culture be considered illogical in another? (Even the mathematical representation of logic wasn't handed down on stone tablets, some person codified and systematized it)

To follow up on what dmiller said, the doctrinal section is basically a place to debate beliefs. If you throw something onto the pile, it's more or less understood that it will be questioned and critiqued. The expectation is that ideas and beliefs will be discussed, explained, and that we will learn from each other. Your method so far has been to post some bible verses, and when questioned to reply that it's not your opinion, it's God's. This isn't a place where you can expect to answer "Just because.." and not get jumped! For that matter, cranking out bible verses doesn't always cut it either. Not only does everyone not agree on what specific verses mean, but some of us aren't Christian and don't accept the bible as a definitive source of truth. The doctrinal regulars are a tougher crowd than the rest of the forums. Maybe you just need to get the feel of the place a little better.

From beyond the grave!Any of you guys or gals ever listen to Chris Duarte? He's coming to Lincoln in 2 weeks.

Martindale mandated that all Advanced Class grads take his Advanced class, which he still called the Advanced Class on Power for Abundant Living. He had it run at Rome City two years running. After hearing that there were still AC grads who hadn't taken it, he decreed that if you weren't a grad of his class, you would not be considered an Advanced class grad and would not have any of the "priveleges" of being an AC grad. Later, when Martindale came up with the new new class, aka The Advanced Class on the Way of Abundance and Power, he again decreed that only grads of the new new class would be considered grads. At least this one was run "on the field" for grads of the old new class; one weekend a month for four months. Although for us, we still had to travel; we didn't have a Limb Coordinator, so we had to drive to South Dakota. Even though I missed a few sessions, I still graduated and was awarded my new blue nametag. (Later, after I started psoting on Waydale I wore my old green nametag and was reproved for it )

I don't think it's been covered, def. Anyway, according to the customs of this thread, that would be Wierwille's opinion, and not an "actual error". Good topic for a thread though.

Every Advanced Class Special was a boring waste of time. Sitting in too-close-together seats wondering when he would get to the point. The last couple of Word in Business & Profession conferences stopped having anything to do with business or profession and became advanced class specials. The Rise and Expansion class, taught "live" by region or limb coordinators. First of all, the book was only marginally about the history of the book of Acts, it was all about grinding on and on about the words used in the so-called "8 Great Statements" and analyzing them to death. Ditto what others have said about Way Tree. Wierwille based it (supposedly) on the "leaders of 10's, 50's, 100's, etc in Exodus that Moses set up, but you don't see anything like a heirarchal structure in Acts. Their are leaders, sure, and ministers, but no pyramid structure.

Is this when animals get together and sing hymns?

Good posts, T-Bone & Potato! :B) Your're right T-Bone, I don't think the information is there. Insisting that it is, and that those who disgree are wrong is a debate that will never end. It looks to me like the early Christians, including the writers of the bible were in disgreement over who Jesus was, what he did, what he accomplished...