Oakspear

Looking at the bible as a history book, as you say, is going to be frustrating. I don't think that the bible can be read as a one-size-fits-all manual to be followed in all its minutia (sp?) and details. A person can live a very fullfilling and moral life by following the general principles of Jesus without believing that he literally walked on water or that Balaam's donkey reproved him

Not at all. If you disagree with the statement, that's another matter altogether. The statement in itself is not confusing. True, but that's how Wierwille promoted PFAL: a class on "keys", a way to get back to the "originals". You're right, it is another topic, one that I did not bring up. Not the discussion in this thread.

When that class first came out, people started calling it the "wap" class (like whap! - the sound of getting hit upside the head). Martindale declared that the class was to be referred to as "The Way class" if not referred to by its full name. I always abbreviated it in writing as WayAP.

I scored as Socinianism. According to the quiz, I am a Socinian and therefore deny the doctrine of the Trinity because I think God exists in a simplified unity. Since this makes the Incarnation impossible, you see Christ's work as simply exemplary. Docetism 25% Socinianism 25% Adoptionist 25% Donatism 0% Arianism 0% Gnosticism 0% Apollanarian 0% Monophysitism 0% Chalcedon compliant 0% Monarchianism 0% Pelagianism 0% Nestorianism 0% Albigensianism 0% Modalism 0%

...read an interesting article in the New York Times not that long ago. A couple of studies had been done on crime in areas with a high percentage of new immigrants, including the illegal kind. Seems that first generation folks' neighborhoods had a lower crime rate than might be expected. It wasn't until the second or third generation that the children and grandchildren of immigrants became like that which was around them. If they ended up in an area dominated by gangs, that's what they (in general) became, if they were in an area where educational and advancement opportunities presented themselves, that's what they modelled themselves upon.

Wierwille made the (correct) point that texts were altered, he led us to believe that he gave us the power to retrieve those original words by applying "keys". Ehrman makes the point that there were so many places where errors, deliberate and accidental, could have been made (and in some cases there is no question that changes were made) that it is impossible to come up with an "original" text. It makes it difficult to depend on any biblical text as "the" word of God. I guess that's why Mike reveres PFAL

Bullinger, in his attempt to harmonize the lists of Persian Kings in Herodotus, the inscription of the Rock of Behistun, the cylinder of Cyrus with the names/titles of Kings listed in the bible, concluded that Cyrus was the son of Ahasuerus aka Artaxerxes aka Darius the Median and Esther from the Book of Esther.

google "Marcion" if you can't wait for Dan to post again

Did LP ever say why he left TWI? He seemed to be, and was held up to be by LCM, faithful and obedient to LCM's "leadership", and left after LCM was booted. Seems curious to me, but I don't know...so I'm asking

Yes But seriously folks...I know you don't want to "retain error", but it would be interesting to some of us who were kicked out for questioning parts of The Way of Abundance and Power to find out if some of the questioned parts were excised. For example, do they still teach that the "original sin of mankind" was Eve having lesbian sex with the devil, who had come into concretion as a woman?

No, but a reasonable person (or Oldiesman) might infer that from when you posted "VP taught we received no spirit until we were born again We are all born with spirit, soul and body" Since what Wierwille taught we received was holy spirit, your statement immediately following looks like it is rferring to being born with holy spirit. As much as I disagree with Oldies most of the time, there is no reason to be short with him No, he makes it up as he goes along

mommy, mommy, make it stop!

The last batch of "leaders" that I had were a mixed bag. Way Corps couple where the husband was functionally illiterate. Not bad overall, but would "confront" people seemingly at random. Single Corps guy who was nice enough but didn't have a clue Family Corps couple. Both pretty nice folks, can't think of anything bad to say about them. The husband was some kind of engineer, d*mn smart New corps grad who liked to act smart, but it wasn't much more than an act. Liked to pretend that he was a big research guy...barely knew that that there was a difference between Aramaic and Greek. Was really into Martindale's "confrontation" of "unproductive evil" and loved "smoking out homos"

No....he didn't...

Either God works in me or he doesn't....the old false dilemma. And you couldn't say that God didn't work in him, because then, why were you following him? TWI leadership was adept at using the false dilemma to stifle arguments and questions.

Well said WordWolf. Many verses taken alone or in conjunction with other selected vesres seem to support one position or the otehr, while others seem to state the exact opposite.

Waysider, as Bramble posted, there wasn't anything offensive in what you said. It is quite common for people to identify Wicca or other neo-paganism with Satanism. Part of the reason for that is that some Christians (e.g. Jack Chick and his tracts) purposely lump together everything that "aint' them" , including other Christians, as Satanic.

The Satanic bible is from the Church of Satan.

Mike isn't derailing in my opinion. Although I didn't expect his appearance (nobody expects...) his belief that PFAL is revelation from God, or whatever the exact phrasing is (sorry Mike, I've not read all your recent posts) isn't any more circular than a belief in an inerrant original text of the bible that no one has or will ever have. Although i do think that the evidence of plagiarism is pretty solid proof that Wierwille borrowed, cut & pasted, etc. and didn't receive PFAL theopneustos. Mike knows my opinion, knows I disagree with him, and I know that he disagrees with him. Let him play with the rest of us.

Perhaps there is. If there is such a thing I believe that different religions are perceiving but a part of it. And I have no problem with you believing that the Devil exists. My belief system does not include a devil. Me neither, but we're the ones perceiving it and interpreting it. Something we disagree about Something esle we disagree about. We're looking at things from different angles, different perspectives. From my perspective I'm not trying to take over from a God that I do not believe exists. I can se where from youyr perspective it would look that way. I'm sure that that's comforting. Not for me though. Heard of them, know zip about them I can't think of any offhand either.

"Spell" check? ^_^ Sounds Wiccan! None taken Gotcha. Sounds like we're agreeing but expressing it differently We agree again!

I know I won't slam you, you stated your opinion in a pretty respectful manner. I don't know that any of us are sugar-coating anything, just telling you what is Now if you have the opinion that all good comes from the biblical God, you probably believe that all evil comes from Satan/The Devil (correct me if I assume incorrectly), so it sounds like you are suggesting that the power comes from Satan. Wiccans in particular and pagans in general don't believe in the God of the bible. Some subscribe to a variety of creation myths, some don't. Some believe that "the power" comes from gods and goddesses, some add other spirit beings, some believe that there is a universal energy that can be tapped into and manipulated by various methods. Some reject the very idea of the biblical God, some see him as just one aspect of the divine. In short, there's a variety of opinions about it. Hmmm...yes and no. Certainly Wiccans revere nature and respect it. Some see it as a manifestation of the divine, or a blueprint, or a reflection. Again, wide difference of opinion. But the term "worships creation" communicates something different than the typical Wiccan believes. I agree, it is. Many folks on one end of the political spectrum try to mischaracterize animal lovers or environmentalists. Yes indeed. there's a lot that can be said about that subject. It's been my experience that Hollywood depictions of witchcraft and spiritualism are mainly hype and b.s. Good point In my opinion spells work about as often as prayer does.

Just a note: a person is a Wiccan, the religion is called Wicca. Not to be pedantic (okay, I am being pedantic ) the Wiccan Rede is generally stated as "An it harm none, do as you will" - but that simple statement is interpreted in many, many, different ways, but generally is understood to mean "no spells to hurt people" ...generally It is not the opinion of all Wiccans, but it is the opinion of some, I have no idea what percentage. I have heard it out of the mouths of most of the Wiccans that I know, and seen it on several websites. For all I know there may be no otehr Wiccans in the world that believe this though.One thing that you can be sure of with Wiccans is that they don't all agree on everything.

Once that trust was undermined I started looking more carefully, and found that a lot of not only what Martindale was saying, but what Wierwille had taught was set upon a foundation of sand. To me, there were too many problems woven into the fabric of TWI doctrine to not start over and see where it led me. And to clarify, it was the behavior of Martindale that got me started questioning, it wasn't the behavior itself that caused my subsequent rejection of TWI teachings. Another key ingredient in my decision to put aside what I had been taught in TWI was stumbling across the CES website. They had a (long) list of areas where they disagreed with what TWI taught. This wasn't just disagreement with Martindale, but disagreement with Wierwille as well. I realized after looking at what other offshoots were teaching, as well as what individual ex-wayfers were saying, that simply using the "keys to research" taught in PFAL (or in Bullinger for that matter) in no way guarantees that the results will be the same.

Regarding evangelism among Wiccans, in general they don't proselytize, although there are certainly exceptions to that. Regarding "spell work" - it's an effort to change reality in some way, whether it's to bring health, physical prosperity, good grades, parking spots (hey! kinda like "believing ), protection, etc. Some believe that the way to affect this change is by praying to the Goddess or lesser deities, some think that the Wiccans personal power does the changing, but I'm oversimplifying. They put prayer in the same category since in some sense, reality is being changed. The Wiccans I've met seem to reflect the general population in that some are wonderful people, some are utter @ssh*les. I've never heard of anyone being beaten, let alone to death, by Wiccans, although I'm sure that there are Wiccans who are violent, justr as there are Christians who are. If your religious beliefs are such that any religion that doesn't have Jesus as its savior is by definition dangerous in that it leads you away from the God of the bible, then you may have a point. But there are many such religions. I'd be one. I'm not exactly a Wiccan, which is a specific type of pagan, but I do consider myself a pagan, and I have celebrated the wheel of the year with Wiccans (as well as other flavors of pagan)