Oakspear

I thought that the "Cry of Triumph" was Lamsa, not Bullinger?

I recall Wierwille teaching that "dead for 72 hours" thing, but I don't recall seeing it anywhere else. Yeah, I don't think that you have to be a doc to see the holes in the story. Personally I don't see anything wrong with crediting one's god for someone being alive when they were written off as dead, but the details remind me of some of the TWI urban legends.

Never?

I believe that non-U.S. Way entities were only as autonomous as they were required by local law to be. Probably the same goes for some U.S. limbs as well. I would imagine that when Country Coordinators decided to split from TWI they were able to take the assets with them if there was no visible link to The Way International.

Did LCM ever claim that he was a great football player? I heard him speak highly of his coaches and relate things that he learned in football to what he was teaching, but I never heard him talk about his ability or lack of it. I did hear second hand how he described how tough Nebraska was in the Orange Bowl of '70.

A lot of things were removed from the book version, including "It's Christ in you, the hope 'a glowree

We have an base near here, had WOW's back in the 70's and 80's and this was never the case.

Yup, I know you do, as many people here at GS do. I doubt that you, me, or anyone else could find any meaningful difference among the actions and lifestyle of Christians, Buddhists, Humanists or any other belief system. Sure it sounds narrow, but you're entitled to that point of view. No, but the good works sure make them more pleasant to be around Because they don't believe that it's true perhaps?back to our scheduled discussion...

I'll assume that this isn't a Christians-only discussion and throw in my 2 cents: Sometimes the doctrinal battle over salvation and how it's gotten overwhelm the question of how we're supposed to act while we're on the earth in this physical body. On one extreme we argue over degrees of sin and get all judgemental about soemone's shortcomings and on another extreme we declare that muttering a magic formula absolves us of all responsibility to live a godly life. With regard to Wierwille's "born again" status, my opinion is that any god who would withhold "salvation" from a person who lives a "Chist-like" life, yet somehow misses out on "believing and confessing" the formula due to any number of possible reasons and awards it to someone nominally "born again" who lies, cheats, rapes and abuses his "flock" is an unjust god. To me the point is somewhat moot; I no longer believe in a heavenly "Get Out Of Hell Free" card or that belief in one religion's standard somehow sets me apart.

Never once did I literally "scratch it out". I have a lot of notes in the margins, and color-coding to indicate different points of Wierwillian doctrine, but I never crossed out anything. It kind of makes it difficult to read.

Hmmm...interesting. I don't believe that I've heretofore heard that "position" - Viewed from a certain angle it kind of makes sense.

Right, you didn't, but you "think" that seemingly contradictory sections, such as the rich man in hell and Lazarus in Abraham's bosom, should be interpreted in light of Ecclesiates about the dead not knowing any thing. That's your "position". Paul also talks about departing and being with Christ, if the bible is true, then that would be what you have to go with as well.

Okay, you're just "clownin"...so you know that we're not talking about the dead being physically alive.

I thought we were talking about what the bible says about the state of the dead. If I did produce a dead person who talked to us, those who believed that the dead were conscious and able to communicate with us would say "See, I told you so", and those who were convinced that the dead had no consciousness would have an alternative explanation, like that they were "devil spirits". Rachel, you may very well be right, I'm just pointing out that your position isn't as self-evident as you claim that it is. bridepfjc expands a bit on my point and says it more clearly than I did.

If it was as clear as you say, we wouldn't be having this discussion! Well their bodiies, sure... Does that mean their memory? Or peoples' memory of them? The English translation indicates the latter IMHO. Do these verses really say what Wierwille said they said?

Heart?Nobody knows that, but actions do speak

Because he's reviving (or attempting to revive) his grandfather's legacy, which many here beieve is harmful.

The guy was a blowhard and a liar. So what? Maybe because we didn't allow ourselves to stay entranced by Vicster the huckster.

Acts 1 seems clear enough to me. I think socks mentioned the reference even if he didn't cite the chapter & verse. It appears to me that you take a more figurative interpretation than some folks. I've got no problem with that, but it makes it difficult for to have a discussion with you (that's my problem, not yours) since I'm never sure what you're seeing when you read a section of the bible. It seems to me that you and follow different rules of logic and discussion, so don't get offended if I don't engage you in debate over this issue.

First, I think that the bible is pretty clear that Jesus physically left this world and that at some point he will come back, if that's not a "return", then I don't know what is. I guess it depends what the proportion of the bible is figurative vs. literal. Does the bible say that the dead are alive? Like so many topics it depends on what verses that one wants to magnify and which ones are to be explained away.

I was not at a point where I expected to be supported. I was 19 and living with my parents when I took PFAL, they were not happy, but mostly respected my decision. I found out many years later that they considered deprogramming, but did not go through with it.

I'm not sure if I was officially marked and avoided or not, but in August or September of 2001 the Region Coordinator told me that I "was no longer welcome at Way fellowships" Because I "did not believe that the Trustees were leading the minsitry in the right direction." This came on the heels of the WayGB figuring out that I was posting on Waydale and Grease Spot Cafe and my speaking up about several doctrines that I did not believe could be biblically supported.

If my memory of TWI teaching is correct, they taught submission primarily to the written "Word", i.e. the bible. Everything was to be measured against that, even direct revelation. As I recall, the teaching was to master what was written, rather than waiting around for revelation on everything. Of course, leadership's mastery and interpreetation of said scripture trumped your own, so submitting to God was equal to submitting to leadership, a perversion at the very least. My opinion, based on limited contact with people who subscribe to the "surrender" doctrine is that some of these people need to grow a brain and think a little. Some of them couldn't decide which hand to use to wipe their butt without praying about it. I'm sure that there's more to it than that, but that's the inmpression that I was left with.

What do you mean? Were you looking for a sign that there really is a God? And you are trying to figure out if this was the sign? Over the years, here at GSC and in the "real" world, I've heard folks use stories like yours to demonstrate that there is a God and that he's looking out for them. Frankly, I think that, as nice as it was that you got pulled out of the ditch, it really doesn't mean anything in regard to your questions about God. Okay, if there is a God that fits the common Christian expectation, then it seems to me that this is exactly what he would do for you. On the other hand, even if there is no God, Mr. Smiley Christian acted in just the way you would expect someone who faithfully follows the tenets of Christianity to act, jumping in to help someone in need. Heck, he acted like any reasonably neighborly or mildly altruistic person would act. I've done the same a time or two (most recently today) and I'm not a Christian. What I'm saying is that if believing in God "works" for you, then do it, if it doesn't "work", doesn't fit the observable facts, then don't.

My brothers and sisters (two of each) acted as if I was their brother that they loved no matter what, treating my religion as irrelevant to their love for me. None of them are Wiccans