Oakspear

Well that definition carries a bit of bias with it...Pagans as a rule don't worship the idols, but the gods behind them...and who gets to decide which gods are false? Mulsims might disagree Christianity incorporated pagan beliefs and practices from very early on, including the slain god who redeems his people... While you are entitled to your opinion, you have not made a case as to why the distinction is what you say it is I think everyone on this thread disagrees with you! That doesn't by itself make you wrong, but your position is pretty much unsupported.

Broadly speaking "pagan" does refer to those outside the Abrahamic religions (Jews, Christians, Muslims). From a Christian perceptive calling someone a pagan could be considered derogatory. "Paganism" in the modern sense is an umbrella term for a many, many families of religions.

Although I no longer attend churches I still hear Wierwille's (and Martindale's) voice rattling around in my head and sizing up people or institutions. I regularly perform weddings, and occassionally someone wants to read or have me read First Corinthians 13 (the love chapter!) and the tape of the TWI explanation starts rolling. Going to meetings that don't start on time cues the TWI speeches about 10 minutes early being on time.

And here I thought that I was a Pagan living in a Christian culture... Okay, but why is that your understanding? What is it that leads you to conclude what you posted about them? You may be right, but I can't seem to see the basis for your opinion. Part of my objection is that it seems incredible that non-Christians would be approaching Christian leaders with complaints.

Congrats on your book. Writing a book is one of those things that I want to do someday, but haven't made the time for. Seeing a fellow GSer get published allows me to live vicariously through you! ^_^ But you know, your line about those who want to know the truth and brave enough to act upon it hit me the same way it did Jim. But then I thought about it and realized that all those folks who want to know the truth will be soon lining up outside my door, since I'm the one who has the truth. I'd better go bake some cookies for 'em.

Hey, no judgement, do what works for you, I just have trouble following it. Sometimes what I do is open GSC in two windows. In the first window I hit the "reply" button at the bottom of the post, this gives me the post that I am replying to, but as you said, it does not include the post that that post is replying to. In the second window I find the post that the post I am replying to is replying to. I hit the reply button, then copy what pops up to the first window. Now I have the original post, the reply by a second poster, and now I can add my reply to the reply. I'm not saying that you should do it, just that I do. That's how I got the post that you replied to in there. I see what you're trying to accomplish with your colors and "So-and-so said" intros, but it just doesn't work for me. Your mileage may vary!

'08 Saturn Aura - Red (you know, like the drapes) I actually got rid of the last WOWmobile about 2 years ago. It was a fake-wood-sided 1987 (or '88) Oldsmobile station wagon. Some of you may remember it from the 3rd Annual Weenie Roast. It was a great travel car, but I sadly had to send "Big Woody" to the Big Car Lot in the Sky. I replaced him with a '95 Saturn S-1. My wife was leasing a Saturn when we got married. The lease was up so we decided to buy.

Okay, let's see if I follow. You agree that the hellenists mentioned are of Jewish bblood but that they are following a pagan culture. The implication seems to be (correct me if I'm wrong) that they are following the pagan religion as well. I would agree that someone folowing a pagan religion would not be a Christian, I don't agree that it follows that someone in a pagan culture could not be Christian. An illustration might be a Christian living in India, a pagan culture. A Christian may choose to wear traditional Indian clothing and speak Hindi and respect local customs, but as long as they are not observing the Hindu religion then that person is still a Christian, albeit living in a pagan culture and following some of this cultures non-religious traditions. It seems that you are equating culture with religion. I guess I'm just not seeing where you have drawn the line. Could you expand upon why you think that these Jews were following pagan religion? And why it makes sense that non-Christians would be complaining to Christian leaders about being shortchanged? I apologize for misrepresenting your position, I missed a few things in the give and take. I find others' quotes within the tagged quotes and the psoters own thoughts outside the quote boxes to be much easier to follow. But again, that's just me :blink:

I actually liked that ring (it was a "Corps sponsorship" ring or somesuch). The leaf motif was pretty cool. At one time I was thinking of getting an oak leaf design silver ring by a jeweler here in town.

During the Oakspear 2002 North American Tour Laleo labelled my car (accurately) a "WOWmobile". During the same trip my father gave me several hundred dollars so I could make it home if the car crapped out on me. I was still driving the POS's that characterized many of our WOW vehicles. This week I bought my first new car. I still have a second car that is more than ten years old, but it runs beautifully and looks pretty sharp too. Gee, tithing, fellowshipping daily, obeying leadership for years and I drove rolling rust buckets...

I don't have much of the physical stuff any more. I let the ex-Mrs. oakspear keep all the books that we owned in common, the PFAL books, RHST, the collaterals, lexicons, concordances etc. I have my own note-laden King James and my Companion bible, as well as some notes from a Corps friend from her Greek class. I threw out my WayAP syllabus, WOW pin and old nametags. I lost my holy spirit dove ring at my first Weenie Roast. What I've kept from the teaching/doctrinal side are a few things: Read what is written Look at the context Know what the words meant when they were written Not much biblical stuff, just some common sense keys to understanding things. Not only do I no longer believe the bible, but don't believe that PFAL was accurate within the context of believing the bible.

Sorry if this duplicates what someone else posted regrading Grecians/Hellenists, but I too have trouble following the changing color schemmes within the quotes...but that's just me From what I understand, Hellenists were Jews who lived within the Greek culture, spoke the Greek language, but still practiced the Jewish religion. Some of these Hellenists (who are by definition Jews) became Christians. Some remained Jews-by-religion and some of those opposed the Christian message preached by Paul and others. Each is a subset of the larger group: Greek speaking Jews who opposed Christianity and Greek speaking Jews who became Christians are both subsets of the larger group of Greek speaking Jews, who are in turn part of the still larger group of all Jews. Why would a Hellenistic Jew who converted to Christianity not be considered a Christian because they lived in a pagan culture? Are you saying that one can't be a Christian in officially atheistic China, or in Muslim Syria or in pagan (Hindu) India? Why would you expect the bible to state facts (like whether "Grecians" refers to Hellenized Jews or true Gentiles) that would have been obvious to the reader 2000 years ago? The bible uses a word, "Grecians", but does not define what the word means, so what do we do? Look to extra-biblical sources to see how the word was used in that time and culture, or look to other uses within the bible to see how the word is used. Most, if not all sources will indicate that Hellēn is the word that is used for Greeks specifically and gentiles in general, hellenistēs is used for Greek-speaking Jews and is usually tranlsated "Greek" or "gentile". By taking the position that "Grecians" refers to gentiles, you indulge in the private interpretation that you accuse others of.

Perhaps because they were being neglected. Because even within the group of "believers" there were subsets, categories. There were the Jews who lived in the borders of the old kingdoms of Judea and Israel and there were the diaspora, who spoke Greek, the hellenists. Because people are fallible and don't always do what they should. You may be right, but some very solid evidense has been presented by one who disagrees with you. Forgive me if I missed something in your previous posts, but what duties to the civil rulers? The Jews were supposed to feed the widows of Gentiles?

I grew up in Queens, NYC and was sent to Nebraska as a WOW in 1980 (a childhood friend, who had been a WOW a year earlier was also sent to Nebraska). I stayed for an extra year and ended up meeting my first wife, had kids... I'm still here 27+ years later. I doubt that I would have ended up here if not for TWI, but who knows what I would have done otherwise.

I think that the fact that there were at one time Corps grads around who weren't on the hamster wheel of Corps assignments, who were working a "secular" job or running their own business (like the Colonel who worked at the Pentagon, the medical doctor, and others), who were not reassigned every three years coexisting with Corps grads who were accepting assignments and being uprooted on a regular basis caused some confusion on the part of some people who applied for the program. I recall a couple applying for Corps training as late as the mid-nineties who were convinced that they would put in their time and then come back to Nebraska and pick up where they left off, running their small business; and this just before Martindale mandated that all active Way Corps work full-time for "the ministry" and not hold outside jobs. Yes, an expectation that a Corps grad serve in some capacity seems obvious, but given the wide range in which "some capacity" was practiced, it is not all that surprising that some folks interpreted "A Lifetime of Christian Service" more broadly than others. That being said, I am occassionally surprised to hear about ex-wayfers who innocently clung to the belief that within The Way International serving God or following Christ was viewed as anything other than serving and following the leaders of The Way International. From what I can see, Wierwille and later Martindale, despite protests that it was "the Word" and not what VP Wierwille or L Craig Martindale said, made it very clear that what they said was what "The Word" said. Following God was defined as following the MOG.

My memory may be faulty, but I thought that you White Dove have stated that you did not go through the Way Corps in-residence training, but that you did marry a Corps grad, making you what they used to call "Spouse Corps". (Martindale eliminated this status in the 90's btw, requiring that couples where one did not go through the in-residence training apply go through the whole four years - several prominent WC grads, including some clergy, had to go back into residence because their spouses had never been through training - now that's a bait & switch) Is it possible that those who are referring to you as not being "Corps" are viewing the training, including the application process, garnering of sponsorship and all the rest as the essential feature of "Corpsness"? This would naturally lead to a dismissal of your experience "on the field" as relevant to the discussion. From where I sit, it seems incredible to think that going through the Way Corps did not include an expectation that the graduate would serve in some capacity in TWI. I can't imagine entering the program without at least the suspicion that one would be expected to accept assignments. On the other hand, not every Corps grad was on the fast track to ordination or running a limb or region. There were times when the majority of the Way Corps were expected to work full time in whatever field they had chosen, and be responsible for saving money for their children's education, etc. There was a time when Corps grads who ran there own businesses, or worked in their profession were respected for the good witness that they were in the community. Some of these ran twigs, some didn't, but there was no stigma to being a Corps grad who didn't submit to being moved about every three years. I recall situations where Corps grads requested being given less responsibility, or no responsibility at all, and where still regarded highly. You also can't ignore the changes in how the program was presented. A training program for those with gift ministries, a training program for twig leaders, a training program for leaders of tens (branch leaders)... ...kind off...during the nineties Martindale, looking as he often did to Moses for his example, decided that Way Corps grads were to be leaders of thousands, hundreds, tens, etc based on the plan whereby Moses delegated some of his responsibility to others. He decided that "leaders of tens" did not refer to more than one "leader of ten" but that each of those leaders would be leading "tens", in other words, more than one "ten", or in Wayspeak, a "branch". The only problem (okay, one of the problems) was that there were Corps grads out there who were overseeing just one twig and the long-time definition of a branch was seven twigs (they did have something called a "twig area" that was 3 - 6 twigs, but that had faded somewhat). What to do? First, split all the twigs so that each Corps grad was now overseeing two twigs and redefine "branch" to mean "two or more twigs". In my last years in TWI we had two "branches" in Nebraska, each with only two twigs. The Omaha branch was so small that when the Limb coordinator was reassigned every wayfer who lived in Omaha was counselled to move elsewhere if they wanted to be active in TWI. A year or two later the new Limb Coordinator/Lincoln Branch coordinator was reassigned and the "branch" was consolidated into one twig that could still barely fill a living room.

:huh: Of couse he had a reason to lie (doesn't mean that he did) - why does anyone lie? Why did Vic lie about all of his miraculous stories? True, but people do things all the time that aren't good for them

Twinky brought up some good points in response to the concept of "pop-ups". Sure, we ex-wayfers have the still annoying voice of Wierwille chiming in when we think about a section of the bible, but are most Christians any better? How many view what we were taught in TWI with incredulity only because they have their own "pop-ups" instilled by their own leaders and not because they have done any deep study of their own?

With the Flecktones...wow!

I may be mistaken, but I don't think mstar was saying "show me" as in "show me a sign", or "do me a mirackle", but "show me" as in "your life and how you conduct yourself will be an indication of your connection to your god".

http://www.return2forever.com/index.cfm?pk...&pid=400145

I saw Chick on Valentine's Day 2007 with vibraphonist Gary Burton. I am really looking forward to seeing them...

um...read the thread title... <_<

Corea, Clarke, DiMeola and White and they're coming to Omaha!

Worth repeating.True, the control grew to insane levels in the 90's, but the seed had been planted, the groove had been cut long before. It's not that big a jump to letting someone micromanage your life once you've accepted that they've got all the answers.