Oakspear

Thank you I don't "well know"...my fifty year old brain cells can't keep track of every discussion in every thread. I'm sure that what you say is true, but I'm talking about the way it comes across. If I did I would understand if it were misunderstood. I've done it and learned to be more clear. I have to go to work now, and IT blocked my access to GSC, so I'll miss out on any responses until tonight. Have a great day!

When one quotes someone else, or provides a link in the midst of a discussion, the implication is that one agreed with the quote or is otherwise using it to bolster one's argument. Saying "I didn't say that" is splitting hairs IMHO. Besides, Bramble didn't say that they were your words, just that they were your doctrine, i.e. that you held the same position. And geisha, you seem a little ruffled that Bramble referred to you as a "lovely person", yet you referred to her and me and "kind & gentle" in seemingly the same context. :huh:

It's still "in dispute" because not everyone agrees with you. There are some who use the pejorative label "cult" to describe those who disagree with them on some issues, while others define a cult as a group that follows certain behaviors.

It's not much of a choice when the "choice" is do what I say or you're toast! :o Now if you're a Christian who doesn't believe in the traditional hell, and just believe that you return to dust when you die, then, okay, God is offering you a choice between the natural order of things, i.e. death and eternal life. In this scenario, unless God intervenes, you just stay dead. Quite different than the scenario where God created Hell, then sends you there if you don't fall into line. The first is either a rescue if you accept it, or no rescue if you don't. the second is reward if you accept it, a punishment if you don't. I believe Bramble is talking specifiacally about the Christians who believe in Hell as a place of eternal torment.

I don't get a lot of people volunteering to tell me that I'm going to Hell, possibly because I generally exude a "Don't F*** With Me" attitude I imagine that it would irritate me if someone, unsolicited, told me that I was going to Hell, not so much because their opinion bothers me, but because they presume to mind my business. I suppose that if you believe that Hell awaits those who don't believe a certain way, it makes sense to tell people that, kind of like how advocates of healthy eating don't want to see their loved ones' arteries get clogged with cholestrol and drop dead of a heart attack at age 42. From my point of view, I pretty much agree with Bramble, a god who tosses those who don't believe a certain way into eternal flame or ice or whatever, isn't a god that I will worship or respect.

Are you thinking of Devil's Advocate with Keaneau Reeves (sp?) and Al Pacino?

I didn't save the work that I did on epiluō, but the short version is that Wierwille mistaught the word in PFAL. It goes back to Wierwille's misunderstanding of Bullinger's section on it in How to Enjoy the Bible. Bullinger taught that the word epiluō meant to "unloose" and gave several examples from non-biblical Greek literature to illustrate its use. One was to open a letter, another was to let loose dogs upon the game. He also showed a number of uses in the bible where it was used in the sense of "expound". Wierwille in PFAL used the example of letting the dogs loose and mistakenly focuused on the wild, uncontrolled aspect of the dogs after they had been let go, rampaging after the game, rather than what Bullinger correctly was emphasizing: the act of letting loose. The point that I had made in a paper that I sent to Belle while we were both in TWI was that contrary to what Wierwille had taught "interpretation" itself was not a bad thing and that the whole "dogs" analogy taught by Wierwille and perpetuated by Martindale was wrong. Belle brought this up to her "leadership", who, instead of addressing the merits (or lack of) of what I had said, defended and expounded on the analogy itself, teaching the example, rather than teaching the verse. To me this was a perfect illustration of how people in TWI were blindly following what Wierwille taught, and defending it no matter what evidense to the contrary existed. It also showed me how little Wierwille actually understood what Bullinger was writing, one instance among many where Wierwille quotes Bullinger to bolster a point that Bullinger isn't making, or is completely clueless as to what Bullinger is actually saying. Before I forget, Belle was one of several Grease Spotters who supported me and assisted in maintaining my sanity during the months that I was still in, but working my way out, trying to convince my ex-wife that we ought to leave. Abigail is at the top of that list. Washn' wear tipped me off to the two-facedness of my new region coordinator Tom Horrocks. Igotout was a great help and an inspiration with his letter to Rosie. If it wasn't for GSC and many of the folks here, the transition to life outside a cult would have been much tougher.

They sure talked like they had a trunk full of scrolls out in the garage didn't they? I imagine for the most part they used the interlinears that were available on the market and that were sold in the bookstore, the Berry's and the Nestle's being the two that I saw, in conjunction with the various concordances and lexicons. Wierwille often referred to "the original" even though he taught in PFAL that there weren't any originals, and would assert that the "original" had to have said such-and-such because he had already painted himself into a doctrinal corner. Half the time it didn't matter if a Greek or Hebrew word's translation didn't fit TWI theology, Wierwille, and later Martindale, would just decree that the word meant something different than what every source said it meant. I remember that staple of TWI teaching, continued in Martindale's class, that the first word of "the original" was "God". Well, I don't think there's anyone who seriously thinks that any language other than Hebrew was the original language of Genesis, and every Hebrew version of Genesis that I've ever seen or heard of has the first word in Genesis as beresheeth, "in the beginning"; the second word is barah, created, and the third is elohim, God. Simple research, easy to check, yet it still is repeated in TWI as if it's a self-evident fact. Research? Hah!

Funny how when one of the little people are kicked out, everybody has to hear them dragged through the mud, but when the big dog is booted, it's none of our business. The night of the first announcement, a man from our fellowship walked out, disgusted after having seen various members of our fellowship unceremoniously tossed out and demonized for minor infractions, yet we were expected to forgive Martindale and move on.

Are you looking for the original version, with Mike V's voice-over, or the "prevailing" edition, with Don Wierwille's voice-over?

Same thing happened to me. I didn't admit to anything myself. Every time they asked me if I was "Twyril", I redirected by asking a pointed question about something the Trustees had done, or a topic in the WayAP class. That usually got them flustered and distracted for a while. I'm sure I wasn't fooling them, but I didn't want to give them the satisfaction that they had sucessfully figured out who I was posting as. At one point they tried to "trick" me by stumbling over the pronunciation of "Twyril" and looking at me expectantly, seeing if I would supply the correct pronunciation! :blink: This is what TWI turned into in the 90's and 00's. No thought of actually teaching or helping people, nothing but circling the wagons and throwing those who deviated from the company line out.

Occassionally innies who like being in show up and post here. They invariably claim that things are better now since they got rid of all the malcontents and bad leadership. Hey! That's us!

We were led to believe that the same meetings were held all over and covered the same things. All three may have been phone hookups, at least two were. If any weren't phone hookups, then a prepared statement was read. I distinctly remember hearing Martindale's voice on the second one. Clearly he was saying or doing things that were putting the corporation, TWI, in further jeopardy. Minimal information. They must have known that the information would get out, so they told us about the lawsuit, but nothing more.The lack of information is one of the reasons why those of us who left 7 - 8 years ago left. Many of us turned to WayDale & GSC for our information because we weren't getting it "inside". Heck, Don Wierwille was dead 5 days before it was announced in fellowships.

I no longer have the letter Oldies, and I don't recall everything that I mentioned, but the two biggest things that I addressed were the WayAP segments on "The Original Sin of Mankind" and "The Face of the Deep". I addressed it from the point of view of someone using the "keys to research" that were taught in TWI. These two topics especially did not utilize any of the fundamentals that were introduced in PFAL. I pointed out that Martindale's claim that certain words he cited had sexual meanings was incorrect, based on a simple word study. I requested that if I was wrong, someone explain to me why and supply evidence. Some of the issues that I had with Wierwille's stuff shows up in "Actual Errors in PFAL".

I was involved during 1999 & 2000 and I can assure you, nothing was ever explained "A - B", let alone "A - Z". We had, if I remember correctly, three meetings about the lawsuit and it's aftermath. During the first meeting it was explained that a lawsuit was being filed against TWI and Martindale and that it involved sexual harrassment. Martindale admitted to a "one-time affair" that he had told his wife and the other Trustees about approximately one year before this announcement. Martindale claimed that he had been forgiven by his wife and that "everything had been handled according to The Word". We were told to report any press coverage of this lawsuit, but to not go on the internet looking for information. The second meeting was to announce Martindale's stepping down as President. The reason given was to "protect the ministry" and Martindale's family. The third meeting was to announce that Martindale was being removed from active Way Corps status, would no longer be considered clergy and that he was being put on probation until such a time as his actions indicated a change in heart. It was never explained why, if everything has been handled "according to The Word" prior to the first meeting, Martindale was being put on probation. It was never explained why he was ousted after the lawsuit, but had been allowed to remain in a position of authority despite the other Trustees knowing what was going on. It was never explained exactly what his actions were that indicated that he needed to change. It was never explained why Donna Martindale was still allowed to stay in a position of responsibility. Any questions were met with the assertion that we were succumbing to internet gossip.

It's difficult to say, who knows what decisions I would have made if not influenced by a cult mindset? I was in my second year of college when I joined up with TWI, but I wasn't doing well and ended up dropping out for reasons that had nothing to do with TWI. I took a year off, went back to night school and ended up leaving again, once again for reasons that had nothing to do with TWI. Shortly after that, I was sent as a WOW to Nebraska. I'm reasonably sure that I never would have come to Nebraska if not for TWI, so physically I'd still be in the New York City area. I met my first wife because of TWI and raised 6 kids with her, so I wouldn't have the same kids that I have now, but I probably would have married anyway and had children. I met my second wife in Nebraska, so I never would have met her. There wasn't any deep dark things that I was "delivered of" by joining TWI, although my drinking and partying tapered off quite a bit due to my involvement in TWI activities.

In April 2000 we were all called to the local fellowship coordinator's house for an important meeting. This was when the A//en lawsuit was announced. We were told at this time to report any news stories that we saw on the subject, but to not go on the internet looking for information. By midnight I had found WayDale. Over the next few months I heard things from within TWI that undermined the confidence that I had that I was "where the Word was taught" and started dissecting Way doctrine myself. I found many holes, not only in Martindale's class, but also in the "research" of Wierwille. The only reason that I ever put up with abuse of any kind was that I believed that "the Word" was being taught. Since that was no longer the case, I began looking for a way out, not easy, since my wife at the time was determined to stay in. I was not shy about pointing out to "leadership" the errors and inconsistancies that I found. At one time, inspired by igotout's letter to Rivenbark, I wrote a letter to Secretary-Treasurer John Reynolds laying out what I saw as TWI's doctrinal problems. He called me one night and suggested that I present my issues to Region Coordinator Tom Horrocks, who would soon be teaching the foundational class in my area. Horrocks would be able to answer my questions, since he would be "working the Word" in preparation for teaching the class. When I told this to Horrocks, he said that he didn't need to work the Word, because if the class was good enough for the Trustees, it was good enough for him :o A few months later, in August 2001, I was confronted by Horrocks, his wife, and our local fellowship coordinator with a sheef of printouts of my posts as "Twyril" on Grease Spot Cafe. A few days after that, Horrocks called me from Missouri, informing me that I was no longer welcome at Way fellowships because I "didn't believe that the Trustees were leading the ministry in the right direction". Thnaks Tom!

Beautiful Ohio...

There is no mathematical formula for recompensing one for previously experienced problems in my opinion. If things are going better, then yay!, they're going better...hooray!

There were times, early on, when I loved going to TWO fellowships. Toward the end, not so much. Pre-approved teachings, pre-approved "order of service" for the fellowships...bleh...

Regarding those thrones from a few posts back: throne is singular, not plural

:huh: <_< :blink:

That's a good question, maybe the holy spirit just needs a perch?

In my opinion, the hallmark of WayBrain is using the old cliches without thinking. If one of the old sayings fits, and you're saying it because you want to, by all means, do it! You shouldn't be afraid to use certain words just because we did in TWI. However, if your brain is on autopilot, and the ol' wayisms just pop out, that's a whole 'nother thing <_<

It seems that Wierwille was Nazi-like in several areas, but there are enough dissimilarities to conclude that he wasn't an actual Nazi. Rascal: What do you mean by intellectually dishonest? the wikipedia definition has this: To be fair, no one equated "rabid Nazi proclivities" with fiscal conservatism, it was posted that what Wierwille was promoting could better be interpreted as such. It would be intellectually dishonest if a poster wrote that without really believing it. Wrong, mistaken, ignorant even...but intelectually dishonest? Doubt it