Oakspear

Again I think we disagree here Oldies. CSBP was written before the TWI heyday, possibly when Wierwille was still involved in the E&R Church. The whole time that I was involved 1978-2001 it was abundantly clear that tithing to groups outside TWI was not considered "laying it at the apostles' feet". TWI teachings involved much more than what was in his pamphlets and books. If you believed that Wierwille was okay with TWI people tithing to other organizations, I have no choice but to accept that, but that wasn't what I experienced.

That's what you called it. What do you mean by this? Who do you think was the force behind it?

So TWI was capable of and practiced brainwashing. In your opinion.

I disagree. The other Trustees were rubber stamp Trustees IMHO and never would have voted against Wierwille, so the "Trustees" controlling the cash equalled Wierwille controlling the cash. And who determined what constituted "the outreach of the Word of God"? Wierwille did. I wouldn't suggest that your heart for what the money was for was tainted, but i do suggest that Wierwille's was. Like the WOWs living on mac & cheese but still giving 10%. Who didn't benefit were the many "slaves" who were not apid for their work. Wierwille taught that it was okay to tithe/abundantly share to groups other than TWI? Where was this?

I recall several folks who were attending fellowships that not affiliated with TWI attending some of these sessions. I don't recall if any rejoined the fold. Do you believe that this person was literally brainwashed? Were you concerned that you might be brainwashed into changing your opinion against your will?

Was this money that "went to the branch" abundant sharing? Or was it a separate fund? I was under the impression that any money from abundant sharing, class fees, sales of bookstore materials etc was to go directly to New Knoxville. I believe that this policy went into effect in the very early 70's.

I don't remember names other than Geer, Townsend and Caballero (the latter two having been on the BOT for a while) being mentioned, but it's been almost 18 years since I've heard them. Martindale made this all about one man: Geer. I had been away from active participation for several years when Wierwille died, the PoP hit the fan etc. When I came back the only side of the story that I heard was the official Martindale side. I did not know about the "loyalty" letter, the letter from the Lynns, Dubofsky and the others whose names I can't recall, Finnegan & the whole state of New York and all the others.

τάράσσω (tarassō) was translated "trouble" in the KJV Strong's Definition is: 1. to agitate, trouble (a thing, by the movement of its parts to and fro) 2. to cause one inward commotion, take away his calmness of mind, disturb his equanimity 3. to disquiet, make restless 4. to stir up 5. to trouble 6 1. to strike one's spirit with fear and dread 7. to render anxious or distressed 8. to perplex the mind of one by suggesting scruples or doubts the second set of tapes was about the "miserable comforters" of Job and became in an expanded form the Defeating the Adversary class

RG: I definitely understand that some folks weren't faking it and had genuine love for those around them. The point of my initial post was that although the fakery was rampant, no one is seriously saying that those who claim real camraderie and love didn't really happen. In other words, I haven't seen anyone challneging anyone else's personal experience.

I think the perception that there are a lot of moderators might be valid if they were all full-time, moderating 8 hours a day, 5 days a week (with a full day off from work and witnessing ) and regularly patrolled all the forums. I doubt any of them are putting a tremendous amount of time into it. In fact, it seems like most of the edits, even with the influx of new mods, comes from just two or three. Even if there are as many as 8 moderators, they would have to be "on duty" 3 hours every day, 7 days a week in order for there to be "full" coverage. I seriously doubt that's happening.

What is the right number of moderators? You know, a number that isn't ridiculous.

I saw the movie at "twig" in the 90's in pseudo-camraderie with all the people who pretended to love me <_<

Interesting that the segment on the Devil masquerading as a lesbian isn't in the new version of WayAP. I'd bet that they never came out and said that this isn't accurate, just pretended that it never existed, like they do with Martindale. "The Tithe Doth Still Provide" and the other article on Abundant Sharing that are appendixes were written by Martindale, but it does not appear that he is credited.

In another thread a poster said In an effort not to derail the Jonny Lingo love fest in that thread, I ask, Who says that what anyone experienced is fake? I've seen many folks minimize the "love and camraderie", or state that it did not outweigh the bad things, but I can't think of anyone who said that another person's experiences were "fake". In my experience, some of it did turn out to be fake, because I was dropped like a hot potato by all these people who "loved" me when I was kicked out. But does anyone want to step up and say that perceptions of love and camraderie that others felt was "fake"?

I think you misunderstood, or perhaps I wasn't clear: if what TWI (The Ministry) said differed from what The Lord said, they went with what "The Ministry" said, reinterpreting what The Lord said so that it would appear to agree with what the ministry said. Obviously, from a Christian perspective, the Lord doesn't lose.

Well doojable, I'll discuss "truth" with you. I think that belief that there is one "TRUTH" is a feature of so many religious and other belief systems, many uncultlike IMHO, that it doesn't really define waybrain.

Looks on topic to me, dooj, you were discussing the reason why you believed that certain attitudes defined waybrain, WhiteDove was disagreeing.

Buffalo Bills...New York's only pro football team

I just reviewed this thread and only found two posters who used the word "mindless", Groucho & myself. Actually I used the terms unthinkingly and reflexively, but "mindless" is not far off from what I meant.However neither of us said that TWI doctrine or those who believed TWI doctrine were mindless, or mindlessly believed it, but that Waybrain described those who did mindlessly, unthinkingly, reflexively believe it. Saying that TWI doctrines or beliefs were being called mindless is the logical fallacy of the strawman argument; i.e. arguing against a position that the other side is not actually taking.

I don't believe that believing what TWI taught necessarily indicates Waybrain. After all, many people here, after thoughtful and/or prayerful consideration have come to similar conclusions on some issues as Wierwille did. Surely we don't believe that every non-Trinitarian Christian, or Christian who believes that the dead are not consciously alive is suffering from Waybrain, do we? Sure Waybrain is a made-up word. All words are at one time or another. Think about all the technical terms, industry jargon, government-speak, etc that have been coined in the last 20-30 years. Apparently we don't all agree with what Waybrain is. My definition is the condition where one unthinkingly and reflexively thinks or says or thinks TWI dogma. Sometimes Waybrain is obvious, more often it is not. If someone voulteers to string the chairs while setting up for a PTA meeting, did they think that through, deciding after careful consideration that it was the most efficient way to set up the room, or did it float up to the forebrain unbidden due to years of indoctrination setting up rooms? The situations in which it is easier to correctly identify Waybrain is when a doctrinal point is questioned and the response is a quote from PFAL or Wierwille that doesn't really answer the question.

I just noticed the new title: and no VPs or Secetary-Treasurer either.

Some of these might be common to Christianity in general, or at least extremely dogmatic versions of Christianity (and other religions too for that matter. ) A grand sense of spiritual superiority (maybe political parties too) One verse answers to life. Immediate acquiescence to anyone in authority, regardless of the rightness or wrongness of their request. A heightened sense of entitlement stemming from supposed higher knowledge of the Bible. A willingness to argue that Granola really does taste better with apple juice instead of milk. (Now that one's just funny ) In my opinion, Waybrain is characterized by an unthinking reflex to do something, or say something only because it was learned in TWI, without having independently verified whether somethiong was indeed true. An example of Waybrain in myself is that I consistantly arrive 10 - 15 minutes early for things, not because I think it's a good idea, (and it often isa good idea) but because I've had it drilled into me for several decades.

TWI, despite its slogans about studying "The Word", has always been about putting the organization and its leaders first. In any situation where a wayfer believes that what "The Lord" says is different than what TWI leadership says, "The Lord" loses.

In theory a "ministry" could be served simultaneously with The Lord, if the goals and actions of "the ministry" were identical with those of The Lord. I believe that "the ministry" attempted to define what serving the Lord meant in terms of what was best for "the ministry", putting "the ministry" first and The Lord second.