Oakspear

No, not ridiculous, simply taking his teachings to their logical conclusion. I agree that teaching an impersonal God was probably not Wierwille's intention, but his Law of Believing logically suggested one.

I agree that Wierwille did not overtly teach that God is impersonal etc, but the his teaching regarding the Law of Believing effectively communicated the same thing if examined. Saint & sinner alike?

Oldies, you and I have two (at least) different opinions of Wierwille and the TWI of our youth. That is going to color how we view and interpret, not only what Wierwille said, but what people say about him. My opinion is that what Juedes is saying is broadly correct, and I accept his generalization. You want to emphasize points that are important to you, but that are peripheral to me. Points that I think are of great significance are not as crucial to you. Now get to work!

Hey johnj! What are you doing still up?

I have the equivalent of a degree mill ordination...Universal Life Church. I've got it so I perform weddings and have "Rev." on my business card. But I always introduce myself to folks who use my services as "Tom". (Rascal...the doctorate that I conferred upon you is worth about as much as Wierwille's...more actually )

While I sometimes think that I could contribute better to some threads if I had the books, I'm better off with them away from me. Most of my TWI books were co-owned by my first wife and me. I let her keep them all. When she moved between our separation and divorce, she boxed up all my notebooks and syllabuses. they immediately went into the tarsh behind my apartment. Good for you raf.

A coupla' observations: John J does a pretty good job of putting TWI beliefs and teachings out there, but doesn't always get it 100% right, and he has a definite "orthodox" Christian POV. However I think that he does an excellent job of presenting the main points. On the subject of Wierwille promoting himself as the sole representative of God on earth and the only purveyer of the truth, it's my opinion that Wierwille was not always consistant in how he presented himself. Those contradictions are presented elsewhere in this thread. We can split hairs and argue over shades of meaning all day, but does anyone really believe that once TWI doctrine was solidified with the filming of PFAL TWI was presented by Wierwille and his supporters as anything less than "the Word as it hadn't been taught since the First Century"? Sure people were brought in to talk to the Corps and at Sunday Services, but were they brought in because Wierwille humbly saw that someone knew more than he did and was publically correcting his error? Or just bringing in another voice to substantiate his own teachings? I think that if we accept Mr. & Mrs. Wierwille's accounts of the early days of bringing in speakers, Wierwille's travelling to hear different teachers, reading a variety of opinions etc, than at one time he was upfront about not knowing it "all", and was a seeker. However at some point, probably either when PFAL was filmed or when he first started seeing numerical growth, there was no place available that taught the truth like TWI (i.e. Wierwille) did. If there was other "truth" out there, it was irrelevant, because whatever was out there, he had it too, and more. So, "the most" truth, and all the other weasel words are just a smokescreen to obfuscate the point that Wierwille was claiming to be the "Teacher" par excellance, and that his "ministry" was the only place to get the complete package of truth.

Sorry if I wasn't clear. I was using your quote (in agreement with it) to engage other postesr who disagreed with it. Do you have a ministry that I can send some money to?

Socks' point bears repeating IMHO: IMHO it's missing the point to leap up, point a finger at John (or anyone esle) and shout "Aha! You said he had all the truth, he only said that he had most truth. C'mon...Wierwille wasn't exactly referring us to other churches in our areas armed with PFAL now was he?

WD: Perhaps his loyalty was debatable, his committment, but not his affiliation. John has explained what he is referring to when he says that Wierwille claimed to be the only source for truth. None of us really know what he was claiming in 1942, because his records are contradictory. By the 70's, when most of us got involved. TWI was, according to Wierwille, the only show in town.

Holy crap...let me sharpen my razor so I can get these hairs split a little better. the MOST truth = no one had any more of the truth than he did. Here's how I'm using the terms "whole truth" and "whole package of truth": I agree that it would be "ridiculous" to say that anyone could claim to have the WHOLE truth if "whole truth" was defined as, say, everything that God knew, or some other equally unattainable (by man) standard. Do you really think that that's what I'm saying? Wierwille promoted his teachings as having been taught to him by God as it hadn't been taught since the First Century, and that no one else was "accurate" on every one of his major points. Wierwille was very clear that getting your doctrine from other denominations would guarantee that you would be taught error in one or more categories.

You're right, the staement that you quoted does not, but this one does:"I too recall being told that some truth could be had outside of TWI. Every once in a while we would be made aware of a group that taught "correctly" on tithing for example, but (sigh) they were "inaccurate" on the Trinity, or some other thing. This was usually illustrative of TWI's claim that they had the whole package of truth. I think it would be correct to say that Wierwille and the TWI heirarchy claimed that TWI was the ONLY and SOLE place to get the whole truth. I would venture to say that those who are saying that TWI claimed to be the only and sole palce to get truth actually mean that. How could they not? Not even John Juedes is claiming that TWI's position was that NO truth of any kind could be found in other denomination. "

Oldies, it appears to me that you are splitting hairs. I too recall being told that some truth could be had outside of TWI. Every once in a while we would be made aware of a group that taught "correctly" on tithing for example, but (sigh) they were "inaccurate" on the Trinity, or some other thing. This was usually illustrative of TWI's claim that they had the whole package of truth. I think it would be correct to say that Wierwille and the TWI heirarchy claimed that TWI was the ONLY and SOLE place to get the whole truth. I would venture to say that those who are saying that TWI claimed to be the only and sole palce to get truth actually mean that. How could they not? Not even John Juedes is claiming that TWI's position was that NO truth of any kind could be found in other denomination. Intentional or not this is a strawman argument and a logical fallacy.

I don't think that Wierwille never acknowledged that he could learn from others. I think it's clear that he did seek out others' teachings in his early days. However, there came a point when that stopped. Was it when he left the church? When he filmed PFAL? When the money started rolling in? I don't know, but most of us were told that we were involved in a TWI where "the Word was taught like it hadn't been since the First Century".

In later years Wierwille said the gas pump incident took place in 1942. The Spiritual 40 Club took place somewhere between then and when he left his denomination.

This was so long ago and with no notes, but I don't remember that. In fact I do remember wondering just who the heck had left and who we should be avoiding.

The "Spiritual 40 Club" operated during Wierwille's days as an E&R Church pastor, not when he was fronting TWI.

happy B'day to my southern neighbor

Happy Birthday to my Weenie Roast roommate...did that sound weird? <_<

Happy Birthday LU...first GSer that I met face-to-face

I heard both sets of tapes and was never Way Corps. It's times like these when I wished I'd have kept my notes. The main subjects that I recall where: Explanation of why the word "Patriarch" did not accurately describe Wierwille Justification for the "loyalty letters" and firings Railing on people who left and accusing the former leaders of stealing people and abundant sharing Claims that PFAL could not legally be run outside of TWI List of deaths and suicides of "copouts" List of devil-spirits supposedly posessing Chris Geer Long exposition on the Book of Job and miserable comforters There's probably more, but that's what I can dredge out of my memory

IIRC I posted my full name on the "My Story" forum a few years ago, and occassionally I mention my name, but I'm comfortable using "Oakspear". In fact, in my wedding business I used the name Th0mas 0akspear J0yce (it's a code to snag the occassional pagan couple ) but my full name is Th0mas James J0yce, Jr. (Mom isn't too happy with my using "Oakspear" as a middle name. Grease Spotters tend to call me oakspear or Oak, even when they knowmy name.

This person was a very vocal concerning the state of affairs in the way, Before he left he stated his mission was to counter the claims presented. He came back a different person. Yes I do believe he was brainwashed or spiritually influenced. And yes I decided that it was not worth the price to satisfy my curiosity. When I sat through these tapes I was on the fence. I had been inactive in TWI fellowships for several years and came back to TWI just before these tapes became available (although I understand that Way Corps had heard them earlier). When I was done with these tapes I was firmly in the Martindale camp, so maybe there is something to it being brainwashing.

I am talking about the Leadership Tapes. WD brought up a point about them that I find interesting: that they were used as a brainwashing tool for those who were against Martindale. I'm interested in his opinion on this.