Oakspear

Reminds me of when I was a WOW in a small burg in western Nebraska. Apparently the interim Corps had been told to "get involved". My interim Corps WOW coordinator dragged me to one of the local "help the less fortunate" agencies. He told the head of the office that he wanted to "get involved". She looked at him quizically and asked "get involved in what?" :blink: Mr. Way Corps had no answer other than to smile sincerely.

Good move...it's really the only way to flush all that crap out of our systems.

The terms bride and body are figures of speech, I believe in this case, metaphors. More than one metaphor can and often does apply. If there is some verse that clearly states that Christians aren't one or the other, then there is no reason that I can see that both metaphors can't apply to different aspects of Christians-as-a-whole. TWI made this error with other metaphors, most notably the whole athlete of the spirit teaching.

Maybe we need a god who sends draught (pronounced "draft") - we'd all be happier (or at least think we were)

No, not ridiculous, simply taking his teachings to their logical conclusion. I agree that teaching an impersonal God was probably not Wierwille's intention, but his Law of Believing logically suggested one.

I agree that Wierwille did not overtly teach that God is impersonal etc, but the his teaching regarding the Law of Believing effectively communicated the same thing if examined. Saint & sinner alike?

Oldies, you and I have two (at least) different opinions of Wierwille and the TWI of our youth. That is going to color how we view and interpret, not only what Wierwille said, but what people say about him. My opinion is that what Juedes is saying is broadly correct, and I accept his generalization. You want to emphasize points that are important to you, but that are peripheral to me. Points that I think are of great significance are not as crucial to you. Now get to work!

Hey johnj! What are you doing still up?

I have the equivalent of a degree mill ordination...Universal Life Church. I've got it so I perform weddings and have "Rev." on my business card. But I always introduce myself to folks who use my services as "Tom". (Rascal...the doctorate that I conferred upon you is worth about as much as Wierwille's...more actually )

While I sometimes think that I could contribute better to some threads if I had the books, I'm better off with them away from me. Most of my TWI books were co-owned by my first wife and me. I let her keep them all. When she moved between our separation and divorce, she boxed up all my notebooks and syllabuses. they immediately went into the tarsh behind my apartment. Good for you raf.

A coupla' observations: John J does a pretty good job of putting TWI beliefs and teachings out there, but doesn't always get it 100% right, and he has a definite "orthodox" Christian POV. However I think that he does an excellent job of presenting the main points. On the subject of Wierwille promoting himself as the sole representative of God on earth and the only purveyer of the truth, it's my opinion that Wierwille was not always consistant in how he presented himself. Those contradictions are presented elsewhere in this thread. We can split hairs and argue over shades of meaning all day, but does anyone really believe that once TWI doctrine was solidified with the filming of PFAL TWI was presented by Wierwille and his supporters as anything less than "the Word as it hadn't been taught since the First Century"? Sure people were brought in to talk to the Corps and at Sunday Services, but were they brought in because Wierwille humbly saw that someone knew more than he did and was publically correcting his error? Or just bringing in another voice to substantiate his own teachings? I think that if we accept Mr. & Mrs. Wierwille's accounts of the early days of bringing in speakers, Wierwille's travelling to hear different teachers, reading a variety of opinions etc, than at one time he was upfront about not knowing it "all", and was a seeker. However at some point, probably either when PFAL was filmed or when he first started seeing numerical growth, there was no place available that taught the truth like TWI (i.e. Wierwille) did. If there was other "truth" out there, it was irrelevant, because whatever was out there, he had it too, and more. So, "the most" truth, and all the other weasel words are just a smokescreen to obfuscate the point that Wierwille was claiming to be the "Teacher" par excellance, and that his "ministry" was the only place to get the complete package of truth.

Sorry if I wasn't clear. I was using your quote (in agreement with it) to engage other postesr who disagreed with it. Do you have a ministry that I can send some money to?

Socks' point bears repeating IMHO: IMHO it's missing the point to leap up, point a finger at John (or anyone esle) and shout "Aha! You said he had all the truth, he only said that he had most truth. C'mon...Wierwille wasn't exactly referring us to other churches in our areas armed with PFAL now was he?

WD: Perhaps his loyalty was debatable, his committment, but not his affiliation. John has explained what he is referring to when he says that Wierwille claimed to be the only source for truth. None of us really know what he was claiming in 1942, because his records are contradictory. By the 70's, when most of us got involved. TWI was, according to Wierwille, the only show in town.

Holy crap...let me sharpen my razor so I can get these hairs split a little better. the MOST truth = no one had any more of the truth than he did. Here's how I'm using the terms "whole truth" and "whole package of truth": I agree that it would be "ridiculous" to say that anyone could claim to have the WHOLE truth if "whole truth" was defined as, say, everything that God knew, or some other equally unattainable (by man) standard. Do you really think that that's what I'm saying? Wierwille promoted his teachings as having been taught to him by God as it hadn't been taught since the First Century, and that no one else was "accurate" on every one of his major points. Wierwille was very clear that getting your doctrine from other denominations would guarantee that you would be taught error in one or more categories.

You're right, the staement that you quoted does not, but this one does:"I too recall being told that some truth could be had outside of TWI. Every once in a while we would be made aware of a group that taught "correctly" on tithing for example, but (sigh) they were "inaccurate" on the Trinity, or some other thing. This was usually illustrative of TWI's claim that they had the whole package of truth. I think it would be correct to say that Wierwille and the TWI heirarchy claimed that TWI was the ONLY and SOLE place to get the whole truth. I would venture to say that those who are saying that TWI claimed to be the only and sole palce to get truth actually mean that. How could they not? Not even John Juedes is claiming that TWI's position was that NO truth of any kind could be found in other denomination. "

Oldies, it appears to me that you are splitting hairs. I too recall being told that some truth could be had outside of TWI. Every once in a while we would be made aware of a group that taught "correctly" on tithing for example, but (sigh) they were "inaccurate" on the Trinity, or some other thing. This was usually illustrative of TWI's claim that they had the whole package of truth. I think it would be correct to say that Wierwille and the TWI heirarchy claimed that TWI was the ONLY and SOLE place to get the whole truth. I would venture to say that those who are saying that TWI claimed to be the only and sole palce to get truth actually mean that. How could they not? Not even John Juedes is claiming that TWI's position was that NO truth of any kind could be found in other denomination. Intentional or not this is a strawman argument and a logical fallacy.

I don't think that Wierwille never acknowledged that he could learn from others. I think it's clear that he did seek out others' teachings in his early days. However, there came a point when that stopped. Was it when he left the church? When he filmed PFAL? When the money started rolling in? I don't know, but most of us were told that we were involved in a TWI where "the Word was taught like it hadn't been since the First Century".

In later years Wierwille said the gas pump incident took place in 1942. The Spiritual 40 Club took place somewhere between then and when he left his denomination.

This was so long ago and with no notes, but I don't remember that. In fact I do remember wondering just who the heck had left and who we should be avoiding.

The "Spiritual 40 Club" operated during Wierwille's days as an E&R Church pastor, not when he was fronting TWI.

happy B'day to my southern neighbor

Happy Birthday to my Weenie Roast roommate...did that sound weird? <_<

Happy Birthday LU...first GSer that I met face-to-face