Oakspear

I won't dispute that what you've got there is the biblical use (or at least one interpretation of a biblical use) of those words. But what I don't understand is if that's true, why did the biblical author use words to mean one thing, when the popular understanding of those words was something else? Hades was not an unconscious state of the dead, but a conscious place where the dead went after "life". It was an underworld ruled over by a god of the dead/underworld. Tartaros was a section of Hades, or below Hades where post-death puishment is meted out. (As opposed to the Elysian Fields, kind of like a pagan Roman paradise or heaven). Gehenna is a Greek rendering of a Hebrew word and concept.

Are we seriously discussing a purported recording of hell? :blink:

Just before I was thrown out they confronted me with printouts of many of my posts. Keeping the household clean and pure doncha know?

In the dominant culture where women had no rights, and were the property of their husband or father, the submitting to one's own husband seems positively liberal and liberating! Kind of like the verses that admonish masters to treat their slaves well. Both have to be looked at in light of the culture 2000 years ago and not in light of U.S. culture of 2009, IMHO. The verses shouldn't be used to justify subservience of women any more than others should be used to justify slavery. While I'm on the subject, why does either partner need to be the "CEO"? There are things that my wife takes the lead in, and I defer to her, because she's better at it; the areas where she defers to me has nothing to do with me being a male, but it's areas where I'm better. We discuss issues where we disagree and try to come to a consensus or agreement; nobody has "the deciding vote", we're a partnership.

I always got the impression that being a Trustee was a lifetime position until you decided that you'd had enough and wanted to retire. When Martindale became the focus of a lawsuit, he talked about changing the way things were structured, separating out the positions of adminstrative head and principal teacher. That may be what they ended up doing, since Rivenbark hardly ever teaches, yet no one is the "principal" teacher. He also talked about making the position of Trustee an assignment klike any other Corps assignment, with a limited term. This does not seem to have happened. Rivenbark has been President/Chairman for 9 years now, although there has been some change in the rest of the board. I'm reasonably sure that Wierwille chose his brother, Howard Allen, DW and Ermal, as well as Martindale. I would guess that Martindale selected Rivenbark. After that it's somewhat unclear. Who actually decided that Rivenbark would replace Martindale? I would be very surprised if it wasn't It seems like Geer was running the show during the late 80's and that the Truistees were figureheads, jumping to do Geer's bidding. At any time during TWI's existance, I would guess that the President called the shots as the MOG with the other two rubber-stamping, or at best advising.

There's some difference in dates, but I think Skyrider's are correct, DW and Howard did not leave the same year. When I was involved during the 90's TWI sold a "Trustee Household" poster which pictured all the Trustees and their spouses, but excluded Caballero & Townsend.

VP, Harry W & Ermal Owens first BOT. there was a Board of Directors before this that was sort of an advisory group to Wierwille, but I've never seen any names mentioned. Harry died ('77?) - Howard & Don joined BOT in '77 Martindale replaced VPW in '82. Ricardo Caballero & John Townsend were Trustees for a while in the late 80's. They didn't replace anyone and weren't replaced when they left. Rivenbark replaced Don and John Reynolds replaced Howard in '97 Rivenbark replaced Martindale & Harve Platig took over Rivenbark's spot in 2001. Reynolds stepped down & was replaced by Jean-Yves Delisle in 2002 Platig left the Board in 2005. Roger Mittler, John Rupp & Vince McFadden all named VP's as the BOT, now the Board of Directors, increased to 5 members. Rivenbark now titled Chairman of the Board of Directors

Stanley Goodspeed. Related in some way to the "family tables" website - that was their contact info at one time

The mission is pretty clear and the "rules" are pretty clear. Nothing needs to be "clarified" in my opinion. No matter how many rules and how many clarifications you put out there, someone will always try to find a loophole, someone will always try to find a way around it. That doesn't mean that the administrator was a poor communicator, just that people will be people. For any who think that the proponents of the pro-TWI point of view treated unfairly, consider that none of the pro-TWI sites allow dissent from their POV. You cannot go to TWI's site, or for that matter any of the offshoots and debate TWI theology. Even the privately owned sites that we have seen from time to time screen out those who are anti-TWI. On the other side anti-TWI sites like Juedes' don't allow you to post pro-TWI material. So the pro-Wierwillites get ganged up on, aren't allowed to harrass posters with horrific TWI experiences, can't push their agendas...well, boo-f***ing-hoo. While I personally believe that the presence of dissenting opinions sharpens one's articulation of one's own position, they shouldn't be allowed to derail the primary mission.

or email me at oakspear@neb.rr.com I have a specific reason for asking. Thanks in advance for your help

I have a few questions for the innies among us: 1. Is Way Corps training held at HQ and not at Gunnison? 2. Have the "tree" terms, i.e. trunk, limb etc been totally done away with? 3. Are the titles, President, Vice President or Secretary Treasurer being used at all? 4. What is the difference between the Candidate and Apprentice Way Corps years? Thanks

On two separate occassions I apparently believed to stop the rain. Then Martindale taught that one couldn't believe to stop the rain. I was kind of afraid to try after that.

I don't look at your last post as assuaging anyone, simply setting the record straight. You were mistaken about where the quote was taken from, and you were man enough to admit your error.

Ah, another drive-by prophet telling us what we need to do, and then (typically) announcing that he will not discuss his position. I happen to know that several of the more vocal posters on this thread on both sides of the discussion have full, rich and interesting lives "on the outside" as you put it, and would venture to say that none of the participants spend all, or even a majority of their time thinking about TWI. If you don't think it's worth discussing, then take your own advice and move on.

speaking of Reynolds... When we were in the first year or so of the Rivenbark era, I felt that things were being swept under the rug, nothing was being explained and our questions weren't answered; asking questions was strongly discouraged. I wrote to Reynolds, believing that he was a man of integrity. John called me at home to discuss my concerns, after which I gave TWI another second chance. One of my concerns that he addressed was the fact that TWI was still standing upon teachings by a man who thought that adultery was okay and was making policy decisions based on so-called revelation by this man. He assured me that everything in the WayAP class was throroughly researched by others and had passed muster. He suggested that I talk to the Region Coordinator TH, who was due to teach WayAP live in Lincoln. TH, Reynolds said, would be able to answer my specific questions because he had researched and studied to ready himself to teach the class. When I finally met with TH he told me that he didn't need to study or research what was in the class: if it was good enough for the Trustees, then it was good enough for him. That was the last straw for me

Sorry, I missed that post...who said that classes were "gifted"? I think this may be the big loophole in TWI's claim of complete ownership. Was The Way in Great Britain (Geer's former org) given rights to distribute anywhere? Or just the UK and Europe? If so, is it legal to distribute outside their "sales area"? I don't understand this statement. Are you saying that The Way of California that existed in the 70's, 80's etc and The Way West are one and the same? I disagree. I can't see why TWI would do that. I believe that all 50 "limbs", The Way of...Alaska, Alabama...Wyoming...etc...were incorporated in the states where they operated, the question is, where these corporations legally independent of The Way International?

A lot of the argument about legality keeps going back to "first sale", but as WhiteDove, and now RumRunner have stated, TWI didn't sell PFAL. Class Coordinators, whether they were Way Corps or not, salaried or not, were acting as agents of TWI to make the class available for people to take. From everything I have heard about the rationale for distributing the class by people who were either out of TWI or acting at cross purposes with the BOT while still on salary or in a TWI-assigned position, it was not a legally reasoned out decision, but an effort to keep what they considered "The Word" available to the masses in the face of perceived apostacy by the "legal" leadership of TWI. Whether these classes that are floating around are legal or not, surely it would take a lot of effort for TWI to track them down, and surely whoever has them now is at least one step removed from their being appropriated from their legal owners, TWI, and not liable for prosecution.

RE: WD's last post quoting Galen (and me!) Galen's position was that he was given a copy of PFAL by the Way (Limb) of California and that The Way of California was somehow independent of The Way International, giving them the right to give away PFAL, or assign rights to others. If I remember correctly, Galen received his copy during the so-called fog years when the leadership of the California Limb was not following the dictates of the Board of Trustees. If a similar position is being taken by the person selling PFAL on eBay, I believe that they are mistaken in the assumption that the rights to PFAL were ever assigned for use without the supervision and control by The Way International.

I agree with WD's take. Some have claimed to have legal ownership, but I believe that they are mistaken.

At least he's being honest about his TWI connections. I have seen earlier versions of his bio where the Way connections were not mentioned.

I was in until 2001 and I don't recall "don't use the internet" as a policy per se. It was mentioned in connection with trolling the internet looking for information about the A\\en lawsuit however. We were told to report any media mentions of the suit, but not to go looking for information online.Martindale also derided the concept of "surfing", saying that people should do what they needed to do, get what they needed to get and not drift along.

Well...yeah...more of an obligation, hmmm?

Did he shape his hand like a duck's bill while holding the beer?

My experience was from the other end of the spectrum. I'm not a musician, or much of a singer, but I was asked by our LC to write a couple of songs for some upcoming meetings. Why me? Maybe because I was pretty good with the written word; wrote a lot of poetry, and he thought that meant that I could write music. I didn't think so, but who was I to argue with the mini-MOG? Anyway, I recruited a guitar player from another twig and we hammered something out, basically just took an old blues song and changed the lyrics, with the intention that one of the people who could actually sing would perform it. To my amazement LC insisted that I sing it, despite my protestations of incompetance. :o So anyway, we tried to work around my lack of singing talent, and came up with something that turned out to be pretty fair, considering. Then we go and audition the finished product to the LC and his wife, who then spend an hour critiquing my singing (in)ability, which I had warned them about. Trying to get me to hold notes that I could barely hit, and suggesting changes that would have required a throat transplant. After the meeting, we both said "screw him, we'll just do it the best we can." They stopped asking me after that

Oh, boo hoo. This is a discussion forum, stop feeling sorry for yourself. I for one am glad you weighed in with your first hand observations, but I am equally thankful for the observations of those who saw it somewhat differently. Well, when you read some of the things that other people have posted, of course there are going to be "yeah-buts". Everybody has a different perspective. While it certainly is better to hear from someone like yourself who was in the thick of things, yours weren't the only set of eyes & ears present. Different conclusions can be reached by reasonable people from the same set of facts. If you expect to ride in here and say your piece without any comment from anyone and attempt to cut off discussion then you're not understanding the "discussion" part of "discussion forum". Thanks again though for weighing in