Oakspear

HCW: Your posts are always enlightening bro'...thanks for sharing What I get out of what you posted was that TWI was a business; the business may have been pushing a particular biblical-spiritual viewpoint, but it was a business just the same, with jockeying for power, self-serving actions, politics and back-stabbing. So many of us thought it was purely a spiritual enterprise, ordained in some fashion by God, that it was a body blow to our worldview when the curtain was pulled aside and we saw who the "Great and Terrible Oz" really was. Part of what tied TWI up in knots after Wierwille died was the crazy stuff that he said and did that was regarded by some as just as good as God saying it. The contradictions came home to roost.

Sorry to be a source of embarrassment for you...but I've been done with being nice to the drive-by judgmental posters for a while now.

Why do you give a **** why we come here? <_<

It's all part of the mindset that many of us fell into: thinking that "The Word" we were being taught was basically correct, but that somehow "the leadership" or "headquarters" or "this one rogue Way Corps guy" was screwing things up. How many of us left TWI thinking that if Martindale and the other two stooges had just gotten back to "The Word that Doctor taught us" everything would have been fine?

It's not enough to feel superior to the non-Christians - folks have to feel superior to each other too. And the other faiths aren't any better, the arguments among pagans about whose traditions are more authentic and who can be called a real Wiccan are reminiscent of the looking-down-the-nose attitude of the Christians that II know

Well, waylaid, if you were the first poster to come through here making the points that you made, I'd be less confrontational. I'm usually pretty easy-going and tolerant with people of opposing viewpoints, even those who support TWI doctrine, (ask around ) but while I've been writing those 7000+ posts, I've encountered dozens of posters whose sole purpose in posting is tell us here at GS what losers we are, who invariably use the phrase "get a life" or some variation on that theme. My patience has run out. I can only hope that you ease up on the insults and contribute to the mix here, wherever you stand on the ex-TWI spectrum. You apologized...I appreciate that gesture.

I'm sure that there will be posters who try to be nice to you and explain what they think you are missing when making your misguided comments. I'm not one of them. Like most of the pinheaded drive-by posters who swoop in here with advice and observations, you pop in with your knee-jerk ignorant, rude remarks as if there's some deep wisdom behind them. Pathetic topic? It speaks directly to the tendency of some Way leaders to expect the rank & file to do all the grunt work while they sit above the fray spouting disconnected scriptures.You have a problem with the use of the term "Corpse" for Way Corps? Too bad...it demonstrates how many of us feel about the Way Corps program...which I'm sure we can all spell correctly. Watch the "therapy" remarks, by the way, it's against the rules of the forum. You don't think that weird dancing was funny? Frightening maybe, and Rocky Horror of the Spirit...jeez, lighten up. Bitterness? Just callin' 'em like we see 'em. So, now that you've confirmed that all of us ex-wayfers are possessed, why don't you run along back to your cult.

Excellent point, but then what is in the nature of angelic beings that would make them unable to repent or be contrite? Is there any scripture that suggests that they don't have the ability? (I hope I'm not taking this subject too far afield)

I had some widely differing experiences, sometimes from the same person. When I lived in NYC there weren't many WC around, so it didn't come up. When I was a WOW our interim Corps guy did a lot of his witnessing at the homes of single women, but then again, none of us exactly adhered to the rules & regulations of the WOW program. During the 90's our Branch coordinator once signed up a guy for (the last in Nebraska) PFAL class during a Rise & Expansion Class, and he & his wife witnessed 3 hours each day after Martindale made it a requirement of all full time Corps. The same guy once screamed at me for cutting off my group's witnessing ten minutes early to watch him play basketball...yeah, that was his witnessing...playing basketball.

I think it's pretty clear, from a biblical literalist point of view, that's Satan's history, as another poster put it, is written. I can't see any place in the bible, that indicates that one should love Satan. Although I'm sure that someone could probably get that particular hand to fit into that specific glove and come up with some scriptures. What I don't understand is why Satan or any of his fallen angelic followers cannot be forgiven, other than "because God said so". What is God's reason for making forgiveness unavailable to them? After all, they changed once, didn't they? From the angel of light and whatever the other guys were angels of to The Devil and his demons.

Oh man...you were smart to get out when you did. The last few ROA's were horrible. The theme was "Living Sanctified" and Martindale pitched the evening teachings as The Class on Living Sanctified. Attendance at the evening teaching was mandatory as was the morning series about Moses & Joshua (we were entering the "Promised Land of the Prevailing Mixed Metaphor" doncha know?)Attendance at late morning twigs was also mandatory. When they announced that there would be no more ROA's it was all I could do to keep from cheering out loud.

- I thought that a crayfish was a crawdad? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crayfish

How many of us, in everyday situations, despite our fantasies of mayhem, actually ever hit anyone? Other than schoolyard scuffles I've laid hands on another person twice, both times at a job site and got fired both times. The first time I was 19 and the second time I was old enough to know better. :blush: Most Americans don't just go around hitting people that .... them off, the ones that do are usually unemployed or incarcerated. Our culture is such that people find other ways to deal with the daily annoyances of life. I'm sure, at least on some level, that TWI leaders knew this, knew that even the biggest ex-football player types among us probably were going to put up with their crap, either that or just leave. The yelling and intimidation worked because we're conditioned culturally for it to work. Add to that the religious aspect and you have a "leadership" made up of bullies and thugs.

My journey out of TWI started on the night that the A||en lawsuit was announced. One of the things that we were told was to report any mention of the lawsuit, but to avoid cruising the internet looking for information about it. That night I went online and found, among other things, WayDale. Behaviors that I thought were isolated incidents, things that I thought were only perpetrated by rogue leaders, were revealed to be widespread. Soon after Martindale resigned his position and later was put on an open-ended probation. I began to wonder how someone as screwed up as Martindale obviously was could have been competent to have taught "foundational truths" and how we could trust any of his supposed "revelations" like 'The Word is Over the World', so I began researching his WayAP class page by page. TWI leadership made it easy for me; they were doing a 24 week series focusing on each one-hour segment in the WayAP class. I found so many problems with that class that it took me 10 pages to type it all up. Now I didn't try to reinvent the wheel, or even look at the class through the lens of mainstream Christianity, but used TWI's own research principles and found inconsistencies and contradictions on virtually every page. Segments about 'The First Sin of Mankind' and 'The Face of the Deep' were especially ridiculous. I even taught fellowship regularly, teaching what I came up with, not what Martindale taught...and nobody noticed. Eventually my research took in some of what Wierwille taught in PFAL as well. After about six months of this I was completely disillusioned with what TWI was teaching. In the past I had justified some of the bad behavior, temper tantrums and even abuse because I rationalized that those things were minor compared to 'the greatness of The Word'. Now I finally saw that what they were teaching was a motley collection of private interpretation, dubious Greek & Hebrew definitions and plain old made up ..... But I gave them one last chance, I wrote to John Reynolds, secretary treasurer of TWI with my ten pages of issues with WayAP & PFAL. He called me at home one night and attempted to assure me that the class had been reviewed and vetted by people other than Martindale and that I should take my concerns to T*m H*rr*cks, the region coordinator, who would be teaching WayAP live in my city. Reynolds told me that H*rr*cks had been working the Word in preparation for teaching and would be able to address my concerns. When I met with H*rr*cks he told me that he didn't need to work the Word, if the class was good enough for the Trustees, it was good enough for him. at that point I left TWI in my heart and never went back. My posting on Grease Spot increased and I was caught and thrown out. It's an anniversary to celebrate!

In August 2001 the WayGB figured out that I was posting on Grease Spot Cafe. After a face-to-face "confrontation" by the Region Coordinators T&D H******s I was told over the phone that I "was no longer welcome at any Way functions". Why? Because I "did not believe that the Trustees were leading 'the ministry' in the right direction". I was already "out" in my heart for at least a year, but was holding on in the hope that I could convince my wife to leave too. Three months later my wife at the time threw me out. As several characters in Monty Python and the Holy Grail said "I got better".

When I was "in" every once in a while we would get a list of inactive PFAL grads in our area that we would go out and talk to and try to bring back into the fold. I don't recall this happening since the 80's though. In the 90's twig leaders would periodically be given a list of names of inactive people to review to see if they really were inactive so that they could be purged from the mailing list. I don't think that it would be too tough to locate me if they really wanted to send me a letter, even though I have moved three times since I was kicked out in 2001.

Yup, don't take anyone's word for it, but don't forget to use made up definitions, refer to nonexistent "old documents", and base your conclusions on faulty premises while you're "checking it out for yourself". Yeah, let's "go to the Word", but here's what it really means...

I can't speak for the captains of illogic at The Way Corporation, but even if one believed that the theology in PFAL was correct, the presentation is definitely dated. Even when I took the class in '78 I thought Wierwille was pretty hokey.

I'm a wedding officiant and am frequently referred to as "the pastor". I'm uncomfortable with the designation and always try to discourage being tagged that way.

I don't remember what reasons that they gave. At the time I had mentally checked out of TWI and was a regular at GS. It was strange that they were honoring the "old-timers" since for the previous five years we had been treated with contempt by the recently graduated Way Corps. I also thought it was petty to deduct time that we weren't active in fellowships from the total. I believe that this was also the first year that Martindale wasn't the President. Ordinarily the anniversary was an occassion for fire-breathing by the forehead, but this one, with RFR in charge, was an example of the blandness to come.

Did you have to explain to the guy what he was doing on your doorstep and who put him there

I knew two women who told me that they were believing for bigger breasts...I swear I'm not making it up. Actually, one of them, at an advanced class, told me that she had received bigger breasts because she knew it would bless her husband. The other one was single, had a nice body, but thought that she needed bigger breasts to "bless" her hypothetical future husband. I was once "believing" for my eyes to be healed so that I wouldn't need glasses. My glasses had broken and I didn't get them replaced. Maybe laleo remembers the experience of riding in a car that I was driving without eyeglasses! :o

And I sat across the aisle from both of youse!

At the anniversary weekend in 2000 awards were given out (certificates I think) for people who had been "in the Word" for 20, 25, 30, 40 etc years. I had taken PFAL in 1978, 22 years earlier, but didn't get a certificate because I wasn't active for about 7 years in the middle of that time. :( Do they still do that?

In: 19 in 1978 - my own choice Out: 24 in 1983 - couldn't get along with leadership Back In: 32 in 1990 - just stupid, I guess Back Out: 43 in 2001 - kicked out