Oakspear

In the beginning of the 90's it seemed like a lot of the European wayfers were from Africa, particularly Zaire. TWI claimed fellowships in 50 countries at one time. It seems like Africa & South America were the areas where most of these wayfers were located.

When I got out in 2001 there were ten states that had so few people that they had no Limb Coordinator. I'm sure that the process has accelerated since then. North & South Dakota, Nebraska, Mississippi, Vermont & New Hampshire, Delaware - I can't remember the other three.

It may be a thin line, but there is a line between those who would without hesitation use violence and those who intimidate with the threat or implication of violence. Most of what I observed in TWI, and the stories from others seem to be the same, is that many TWI "leaders" were bullies, but didn't have the guts to back up their tough words with tough actions.

It's now called the Victor Paul Wierwille Prevailing Word Auditorium. :wacko:

I'm going to be performing a wedding on October 31st in Lawrence Kansas at 1:30PM. If any Kansas GSers want to meet before I head back to Nebraska, email me at oakspear@neb.rr.com

By 2001 there were 10 states that were small enough that they didn't rate their own Limb Coordinator or any Way Corps. The people in these states were being encouraged to move to areas where "the Word was moving". I don't doubt that the trend only continued in the last eight years.

Very well stated penworks. In my observation, nostalgia for the "good ol' Way days" is similar to many people who look back at their childhood Christmases with such delight and wonder and are angry that they turned into so much 'work' and stress, when in reality dad (and especially) mom always had the stress and work, we kids just didn't see it and got to bask in the glow of family and Santa Claus. The "good ol' Way days" are similar in that we, as new people, didn't know what was going on behind the scenes, weren't aware of the problems, we just got to enjoy a bible fellowship with people who appeared to know what they were talking about and bible classes that seemed to make more sense that what we'd heard before. In some respects we were the kids. I've always thought it interesting how the good ol' days and 'when it all went wrong' are defined differently by people depending on who they are, where they were, who their leadership was and when they were involved: I got involved in 1978 and the good ol' days for me were the late 70's and early 80's; the 90's were a nightmare. There have been posters who were already on the way out in '72 or '73 because things were changing for the worse even then; there are still posters around who got involved in the 90's who might define the good ol' days as sometime before 1999. And don't forget the posters who were raised by TWI parents, sometimes during Corps training, who don't think 'good ol' days' ever existed, or the people who bolted before even 'the hippies' showed up, who most of us would never have heard of. What does this tell us? That there was no objective "good ol' Way days".

Even the WIB turned into just another "class". The first few WIB's that I went to had separate teachings/fellowships for people in like professions, by the time of the last few WIB's, they were little difference between them and the Advanced Class Specials. It was at a WIB that Martindale first announced his 'no debt' policy to those not in the Way Corps.

Can't address what was happening at HQ, but as far as "out on the field" I'd bet that they thought that to a certain extent that they were decentralizing with more and more power in the hands of the region guys and the five "root locales" where corps training took place. What was a head-scratcher in my opinion was for how long the structure remained in place, even after 80%+ of the people left. In the early 80's, at the peak of membership there were seven or eight regions. Just before Martindale was ousted there were twelve regions most with only 2 or 3 states, and one, Ohio, that was a one-state region. Combine that with the definition of a "branch" being 'more than one twig' and you have almost more chiefs than Indians.

The company line, of course, was that there was something wrong with church that wasn't wrong with TWI. For those of us who actually had encountered a problem or two with specific churches, this resonated and the reflexive answer was "No way! I wouldn't want to go to church!" But for those who grew up in and around TWI, the answer wasn't so obvious, the stagnation, the repetition, the blandness that many of us saw as the embodiment of "a church" was what they saw in TWI.

I agree with Bolshevik and Skyrider, while sticking with my own comments. There's many reasons why people stay in. While wayfers often talked about how we were in a research ministry, how few actually did any research? It was easier to let PFAL substitute for brain cells. I think Skyrider's comment definitely applies to those on the payroll.

Personally I have observed that people put up with things that they don't like, or are even harmful to them because they balance the perceived benefits against the perceived downside. People put up with jobs that they don't like because they need the insurance; with abusive spouses because they don't believe they can support their kids alone; with high taxes because they send the kids to a "good" school. People stay involved in TWI as long as the benefits appear to outweigh the problems. It doesn't matter that the "benefits" may appear to us who are outside the system to be composed of equal parts wishful thinking and b^ll$h!t, if they think that they are getting "The Word" like it hasn't been taught since the First Century, what's a little yelling and spitting? If they think that their spouse will leave them, what's a little false doctrine? People will put up with a lot if they think that they're getting something out of it.

Not that there's anything wrong with that...

For a guy who supposedly just left an offshoot you're really a big a defender of TWI leadership :blink:

Well larks have very small brains... These guys look happy too

Put aside for a second my personal belief that these types of "prophecies" are fake, who spoke this prophecy over her? Why should we trust the words of whoever that was? Of course you can believe whatever you want, but if you're going to engage in a discussion, then you're going to have to produce more evidence of her being a healer than somebody said that she would be one. can you say "circular reasoning"? You don't care? That statement says a lot right there. Some of it you can know for sure because she admitted it while being deposed for a court hearing. No, that's not the important thing! TWI abusers have long used the tactic of declaring something "in the past" to avoid taking responsibility for their actions.

<_< :unsure: :blink: :wacko: :o

Something that usually annoyed me about "ministry" themes was that everything had to be jammed into them. If the theme was "Living Sanctified" no matter what you were teaching about had to have the word "sanctified" in there somewhere. You still heard the same insipid teachings every year, they just used different terminology: Sanctified in Outreach Living Abundantly in Outreach God's Sufficiency in Outreach Prevailing in Outreach Outreach: The Way of Holiness Ambassadors for Christ in Outreach ad nauseum... All the same teaching. Then of course the important sounding "research" into Greek words that accompanied each new theme with Way Corps who could barely speak proper English lecturing us on Greek words.

Wierwille built his cult by building personal power & loyalty and selling us on a fake bill of goods Martindale wrecked his cult by assuming that the personal power & loyalty would carry over and rebuilt using fear and intimidation Rivenbark knows that she doesn't have the charisma of Wierwille or the fire of Martindale and maintains her cult through manipulation

I had high hopes for this one :B)

Oh yeah...they're not truths they're opinions...in my opinion But I like you...come back & play with us

I don't believe Jesus was a god either! They are as far as I can tell I think the evidense suggests that prayer doesn't work I disagree, at least if you believe the bible definitely not! How can I argue with your travel plans? Hey, you weren't impolite or judgemental...so I'll be nice!

Well, apparently it's a discussion about RFR now! You can't control these things!

Maybe we should have had the ROA a different week since it rained every year that week

I still have fond memories of eating hamburgers and drinking beer in your kitchen...