Oakspear

Crown: Thanks for your contributions to this thread. Much of it as been discussed in bits and pieces by other "innies" who post here, but you have distilled current doctrines and practices down nicely. Even though the face melting abuses of the past seem to have died down, the error that supported them still remains. Oakspear "We...know how cruel the truth often is, and we wonder whether delusion is not more consoling" Henri Poincare

From what has been posted here, it's evident that there are a number of opinions as to what the standards for cult status should be: doctrinal, behavioral, psychological. I suppose when you define "a cult" broadly as "something that has religous overtones, but is somehow bad" you're going to get a multitude of definitions. After all, to certain churches, deviation from orthodox doctrine is as dangerous as controlling leadership and psychological manipulation. To some, doctrine is irelevant to the issue. Depends on the priorities of whoever is making up the definition. What bothers me is people who pin the "cult" label on twi or anyone else for that matter, without a clear understanding of what really goes on inside. In my experience, people who thought that I was in a cult had the following rationale: Wierwille taught a lot of things that are different than what "the church" teaches Wierwille lives "high on the hog" off your money You are changing due to Wierwille's influence The Way is called a cult (Circular reasoning on this one) In my mind these aruments held little water: There is enough disagreement on doctrine out there, that doctrinal arguments did not confer cult status to me Plenty of heads of denomination live well off their supporters money Many of us changed for the worse under twi's influence; some of the change was facilitated by negative reinforcement by family, friends and church; some was the result of youthful ego-flexing; some probably was due to twi If some periodical or some minister said you were a cult, that was all that some people needed to make up their minds, no examination of the issues, no looking at the evidence Most people had no idea what went on inside the Way, and were basing their judgement on flimsy evidence, in my opinion. It's like the people who tried to get you to stop smoking pot by showing Reefer Madness, it was so crazy that you just discounted the whole argument; claims that we were in an evil cult didn't match up with our experience, so we laughed them off. Oakspear "We...know how cruel the truth often is, and we wonder whether delusion is not more consoling" Henri Poincare [This message was edited by Oakspear on February 13, 2003 at 15:17.]

I have long since passed from the "examination" phase of dentally altered pedicures and into the "acceptance" phase of dentally altered pedicures (DAPs), so long in fact, that many of you were not yet born when I conceived this great conception. Or even if you were born, you had not yet entered the "examination" phase (EP), still wallowing in the initial "acceptance" phase (AP). It is self evident that we all started out in a AP of DAP, received a trauma upon discovering that it was "all our fault" (AOF) for the "fall of the ministry" (FOM), which was built upon, you guessed it the AP of DAPs. It was AOF that we caused the FOM by our headlong rush to EP of the DAPs. No matter what Rafael says with his Floridian reporter tricks that he learned at reporter school. ...and yes, balls in a jar does sound kinky! Oakspear "We...know how cruel the truth often is, and we wonder whether delusion is not more consoling" Henri Poincare

Hold on...how many F's are there? Oakspear "We...know how cruel the truth often is, and we wonder whether delusion is not more consoling" Henri Poincare

I don't know why everyone is picking on Larry P, after all, even if he is a niggardly German hating solicitor, he is entitles to his own version of the truth, justice and the American way as everybody else, except Muslims who buy stamps of course. I dreamed once that I met Larry and in the dream he was a pretty nice guy, so therefore I must apologize for some of things I was thinking of saying. Larry never had a chance. But I was wondering about one thing Larry: do you consider the voice-overs that Wiewrwille did for the "sex-with-dogs" video canonical? Oakspear "We...know how cruel the truth often is, and we wonder whether delusion is not more consoling" Henri Poincare

Glad to see that Eowyn is still in the lead, but Kathy's thread has surpassed this one :P--> Gollum???? Oakspear "We...know how cruel the truth often is, and we wonder whether delusion is not more consoling" Henri Poincare

If this trend continues, then it would surely debunk the theory that there are large numbers of lurkers and shy posters who don't want to get attacked by the "antiWierwillites", who don't post because they are afraid to go against the GS tide. Oakspear "We...know how cruel the truth often is, and we wonder whether delusion is not more consoling" Henri Poincare

MIke is likened to Gollum with his preciousssss PFAL book, Gollums real name is Smeagol (Shmegel) Oakspear "We...know how cruel the truth often is, and we wonder whether delusion is not more consoling" Henri Poincare

Why can't it be both? :D--> Oakspear "We...know how cruel the truth often is, and we wonder whether delusion is not more consoling" Henri Poincare

Tonight's Tom's Bedtime CD Pick is a double, which includes both Blow By Blow and Wired by Jeff Beck. With Blow By Blow Jeff finally figured out that a vocalist just detracted from his guitar playing. This album was very jazzy-funky and opened the door for me for fusion groups such as Weather Report and Return to Forever. Wired had a cover of Mingus' Goodbye Pork Pie Hat which got me listening to Mingus and later Coltrane and other jazz greats. Musicians who played on Wired included Jan Hammer and Narada Michael Walden which widened my musical horizons even more. These are arguably Beck's best offerings, although Jeff Beck's Guitar Shop is right up there :D--> Oakspear "We...know how cruel the truth often is, and we wonder whether delusion is not more consoling" Henri Poincare

Although having a minority opinion at GreaseSpot can be somewhat hazardous at times, we still can retain out anonymity if we choose, and don't have to tolerate spit flecks in our faces or uninvited visits to our homes. The number of things that we were encouraged to not have an opinion on is amazing. I'm not one of these people who normally have a problem speaking up in public, but in twi I gave up that aspect of myself to keep the peace. The opportunity to freely discuss aspects of our "Wayness", including the various doctrines that were taught is invalubale. Oakspear (actual friend of the real-life Abigail)

When I did go group witnessing, I never had any trouble talking to anyone. I'm one of those people who can walk up to any person from any background and start a conversation with them. Part of that comes from some of the jobs I've had: selling vacuums door-to-door for a short time; coordinating crews of kids selling newspaper subscriptions; countless school and Boy & Girl Scut fund-raisers; part comes from a naturally outgoing personality. The problem was that, even though I could talk to anybody, and could get to "The Word" with great facility, it was a big game to me. I would make the contact, cover the assigned subject, invite them to fellowship...but I didn't care. All I wanted was to cover the bases so "leadership" would stay off my butt. The times when I did care was when I actually liked it: When I would stop by the bar on the way home from work and end up speaking the exact right words that someone needed to hear The time on the way to Twig when I saw a guy walking down the street and just knew that I should invite him. I jumped out of the car after telling my son to take the wheel. My other son and I ran down the street, invited the guy to come with us, just as my son pulled up to the curb with my car. "Planned" outreach, lists, all that crap, just took the joy out of it Oakspear "We...know how cruel the truth often is, and we wonder whether delusion is not more consoling" Henri Poincare

My last year and a half in I started working on Saturdays so I didn't have to make excuses anymore. Oakspear "We...know how cruel the truth often is, and we wonder whether delusion is not more consoling" Henri Poincare

Satriani!!??? Sounds like a great concert, and ya gotta love that fretless bass playin' ...and since you mentioned Jaco, this morning's Tom's Breakfast CD Pick is Jaco Pastorius' eponymous album. Another sad loss to the music world when he bought it. Oakspear "We...know how cruel the truth often is, and we wonder whether delusion is not more consoling" Henri Poincare

Regarding The Thirteenth Tribe: All Koestler really proved was that there was a tribe/nation called the Khazars who converted en masse to Judaism in the 8th (?) century. His documentary evidence is pretty firm on those points. What he does not prove is that the Khazars are the sole descendents of the Askenazim. His theory that the Khazars migrated to eastern Europe to become the "cradle of eastern Jewry" is a supposition. Read his book and you'll see that he makes some logical and thought through projections of what could have happened, but doesn't prove it. I wonder if you could ever prove something like that, absent clear and continuous written recors. One thing is clear: there are references to Jews being in all parts of the former Roman empire continuously from biblical times to modern times. As a group, Jews tended to be urban dwellers, and as the most visible non-Christians, tended to stand out as a community. Another thing, regarding language. Although Yiddish became the lingua franca of eastern european Jews, most educated Jews retained a facility in Hebrew, in order to read the scriptures. There is absolutely no evidence of any aspects of a Khazar language surviving into modern times. It's also hard to see how Wierwille could have made some of the statements that he did if he had actually read Koestler. Did he just skim the book? Did he not understand what Koestler was saying? Or did he willfully misrepresent? When I finally read The Thirteenth Tribe in the early 90's, I was amazed at how it did not fully support Wierwille's conclusions, even though Wierwille cited it as if it did. Oakspear "We...know how cruel the truth often is, and we wonder whether delusion is not more consoling" Henri Poincare

"I wanta squash my meat in the mud of Wilson Picket" Are those the words? Oakspear "We...know how cruel the truth often is, and we wonder whether delusion is not more consoling" Henri Poincare

Sogwap: That wasn't weird what you just described? Oakspear "We...know how cruel the truth often is, and we wonder whether delusion is not more consoling" Henri Poincare

George: I always wanted to be Spider-Man Oakspear "We...know how cruel the truth often is, and we wonder whether delusion is not more consoling" Henri Poincare

A La Pro: Glad you had a good time! Thanks for the Greatr Big Sea songs that you sent me. Tonight's Tom's Bedtime CD Pick Best of Foghat No comments, I just like 'em! :P--> Oakspear "We...know how cruel the truth often is, and we wonder whether delusion is not more consoling" Henri Poincare

Very cool, very cool. Also cool that you acknowledged the "official minority voice" mi hermano Miguelito. Seeing all of these errors in one place will help some folks make a decision...I can only hope :)--> Oakspear "We...know how cruel the truth often is, and we wonder whether delusion is not more consoling" Henri Poincare

or maybe:symperasma: when what has been said is briefly summed up epitrochasmos: running lightly over by way of summary Oakspear "We...know how cruel the truth often is, and we wonder whether delusion is not more consoling" Henri Poincare

...but seriously Mr. Olmeda, thanks for starting this thread and double thanks for summarizing it all. I'm looking forward to seeing "The List" Oakspear "We...know how cruel the truth often is, and we wonder whether delusion is not more consoling" Henri Poincare

All those years in "reporter school" are finally paying off ;)--> Oakspear (graduate of grocery school: where we learn to "handle the melons") "We...know how cruel the truth often is, and we wonder whether delusion is not more consoling" Henri Poincare

Erick: Mr.P-Mosh doesn't believe because he doesn't want to believe? Who are you to make that judgement? What do you know of his life and what he has gone through? You have your faith. Good deal for you. Some of us don't. It's not so easy as just deciding to believe...not for me anyway. For all the talk about spirituality vs. five senses, it's still the five senses that get us to spirituality, ain't it? And you "love" him? You manifest this love by saying that addressing his point of view would be a waste of time? Oakspear "We...know how cruel the truth often is, and we wonder whether delusion is not more consoling" Henri Poincare [This message was edited by Oakspear on January 30, 2003 at 18:59.]

Tell them that you've exchanged emails with your pagan buddy Oakspear which makes you unworthy to speak the "rightly divided Word" due to contamination of some sort :D--> Oakspear "We...know how cruel the truth often is, and we wonder whether delusion is not more consoling" Henri Poincare