Oakspear

Zix: Wasn't Elektra a recurring character opposite Wolverine in the X-Men comics? That's why the scene you mention in your last post was a surprise to me. I saw the movie tonight and enjoyed it. I'll probably bring my 15-year old to see it next week. Affleck does a great job portraying a blind man, even down to folding different denominations of bills differently so he can tell them apart. The way he has to sleep to tune out all the noise that his hyper-hearing assaults him with is pretty cool. Michael Clark Duncan does make a great Kingpin. I almost forgot that he's drawn as a fat white man in the comics! I loved the martial arts scenes, although there were some "personal physics moments" here and there. The "pass me the honey" scene was a winner too. :D--> Oakspear "We...know how cruel the truth often is, and we wonder whether delusion is not more consoling" Henri Poincare

Thank you Ben Grimm Oakspear "We...know how cruel the truth often is, and we wonder whether delusion is not more consoling" Henri Poincare

Will probably see it next week. Was surprised initially at MCD as Kingpin, but, hey, why not? Oakspear "We...know how cruel the truth often is, and we wonder whether delusion is not more consoling" Henri Poincare

1995-1997: Got increasingly uneasy with the yelling and mental abuse that took place. Culminated in 1997 when I blew up at the BC for yelling at my wife. Was ready to leave right then but my wife would not back me up, so I stayed in to keep the peace in my home. 1999: Was put on probation for six months. 2000: After hearing of the lawsuit, started to question what I was hearing from "leadership" about the whole situation. Put things "on hold", waiting for the other shoe to drop. Started re-working Martindale's foundational class since I was convinced that someone as messed up as he was could have accurately worked the Word only by phenomena. Started reading and posting on WayDale, but still reamained loyal to TWI. 2001: Came up with ten pages of "actual errors" in The Way of Abundance and Power (WayAP) class. Presented these to local leadership who did nothing. Wrote to John Reynolds. John called me back after a few weeks and discusssed several issues with me. I was willing to give it another shot. Reynolds told me that I could discuss specific doctrinal questions with Tom Horrocks, the Region Coordinator, since he had worked the Word in preparation for teaching the class live. Horrocks said that he didn't need to work the Word, because the Trusteees had approved the class and that was good enough for him. At this point I made the decision to get out, but wanted to take my family with me. I started posting "insider" information on Waydale and GreaseSpotCafe and became more openly critical of TWI. WayGB figured out that it was me and banned me from Way fellowships because I "didn't believe that the Trustees were leading the ministry in the right direction". I was offered probation. I refused. Oakspear "We...know how cruel the truth often is, and we wonder whether delusion is not more consoling" Henri Poincare

Oldies: The Roman Catholic experience, like the TWI experience is subjective. Like you, many people found the rules and regs of Catholicism oppressive, others find great meaning in the Catholic faith, while still others just go through the motions. Compare that to TWI: your experiences in Wierwille-era TWI was very positive, while others who were involved during the same era had negative experiences. With both, I think it depends on the individual, as well as the local "leadership", and the people that you are surrounded with. Oakspear "We...know how cruel the truth often is, and we wonder whether delusion is not more consoling" Henri Poincare

One of the results of that "Unequally Yoked" crap was that they started teaching that if you were not "doing the Word", you were causing your spouse to be "unequally yoked" to an "unbeliever". Whenever a problem became manifest in a marriage, they would whisper that in the ear of the spouse that was perceived to be more loyal to TWI. Another example of how, even if they didn't actually cause problems in peoples' marriages, they certainly made them worse. Oakspear "We...know how cruel the truth often is, and we wonder whether delusion is not more consoling" Henri Poincare

Crown: Thanks for your contributions to this thread. Much of it as been discussed in bits and pieces by other "innies" who post here, but you have distilled current doctrines and practices down nicely. Even though the face melting abuses of the past seem to have died down, the error that supported them still remains. Oakspear "We...know how cruel the truth often is, and we wonder whether delusion is not more consoling" Henri Poincare

From what has been posted here, it's evident that there are a number of opinions as to what the standards for cult status should be: doctrinal, behavioral, psychological. I suppose when you define "a cult" broadly as "something that has religous overtones, but is somehow bad" you're going to get a multitude of definitions. After all, to certain churches, deviation from orthodox doctrine is as dangerous as controlling leadership and psychological manipulation. To some, doctrine is irelevant to the issue. Depends on the priorities of whoever is making up the definition. What bothers me is people who pin the "cult" label on twi or anyone else for that matter, without a clear understanding of what really goes on inside. In my experience, people who thought that I was in a cult had the following rationale: Wierwille taught a lot of things that are different than what "the church" teaches Wierwille lives "high on the hog" off your money You are changing due to Wierwille's influence The Way is called a cult (Circular reasoning on this one) In my mind these aruments held little water: There is enough disagreement on doctrine out there, that doctrinal arguments did not confer cult status to me Plenty of heads of denomination live well off their supporters money Many of us changed for the worse under twi's influence; some of the change was facilitated by negative reinforcement by family, friends and church; some was the result of youthful ego-flexing; some probably was due to twi If some periodical or some minister said you were a cult, that was all that some people needed to make up their minds, no examination of the issues, no looking at the evidence Most people had no idea what went on inside the Way, and were basing their judgement on flimsy evidence, in my opinion. It's like the people who tried to get you to stop smoking pot by showing Reefer Madness, it was so crazy that you just discounted the whole argument; claims that we were in an evil cult didn't match up with our experience, so we laughed them off. Oakspear "We...know how cruel the truth often is, and we wonder whether delusion is not more consoling" Henri Poincare [This message was edited by Oakspear on February 13, 2003 at 15:17.]

I have long since passed from the "examination" phase of dentally altered pedicures and into the "acceptance" phase of dentally altered pedicures (DAPs), so long in fact, that many of you were not yet born when I conceived this great conception. Or even if you were born, you had not yet entered the "examination" phase (EP), still wallowing in the initial "acceptance" phase (AP). It is self evident that we all started out in a AP of DAP, received a trauma upon discovering that it was "all our fault" (AOF) for the "fall of the ministry" (FOM), which was built upon, you guessed it the AP of DAPs. It was AOF that we caused the FOM by our headlong rush to EP of the DAPs. No matter what Rafael says with his Floridian reporter tricks that he learned at reporter school. ...and yes, balls in a jar does sound kinky! Oakspear "We...know how cruel the truth often is, and we wonder whether delusion is not more consoling" Henri Poincare

Hold on...how many F's are there? Oakspear "We...know how cruel the truth often is, and we wonder whether delusion is not more consoling" Henri Poincare

I don't know why everyone is picking on Larry P, after all, even if he is a niggardly German hating solicitor, he is entitles to his own version of the truth, justice and the American way as everybody else, except Muslims who buy stamps of course. I dreamed once that I met Larry and in the dream he was a pretty nice guy, so therefore I must apologize for some of things I was thinking of saying. Larry never had a chance. But I was wondering about one thing Larry: do you consider the voice-overs that Wiewrwille did for the "sex-with-dogs" video canonical? Oakspear "We...know how cruel the truth often is, and we wonder whether delusion is not more consoling" Henri Poincare

Glad to see that Eowyn is still in the lead, but Kathy's thread has surpassed this one :P--> Gollum???? Oakspear "We...know how cruel the truth often is, and we wonder whether delusion is not more consoling" Henri Poincare

If this trend continues, then it would surely debunk the theory that there are large numbers of lurkers and shy posters who don't want to get attacked by the "antiWierwillites", who don't post because they are afraid to go against the GS tide. Oakspear "We...know how cruel the truth often is, and we wonder whether delusion is not more consoling" Henri Poincare

MIke is likened to Gollum with his preciousssss PFAL book, Gollums real name is Smeagol (Shmegel) Oakspear "We...know how cruel the truth often is, and we wonder whether delusion is not more consoling" Henri Poincare

Why can't it be both? :D--> Oakspear "We...know how cruel the truth often is, and we wonder whether delusion is not more consoling" Henri Poincare

Tonight's Tom's Bedtime CD Pick is a double, which includes both Blow By Blow and Wired by Jeff Beck. With Blow By Blow Jeff finally figured out that a vocalist just detracted from his guitar playing. This album was very jazzy-funky and opened the door for me for fusion groups such as Weather Report and Return to Forever. Wired had a cover of Mingus' Goodbye Pork Pie Hat which got me listening to Mingus and later Coltrane and other jazz greats. Musicians who played on Wired included Jan Hammer and Narada Michael Walden which widened my musical horizons even more. These are arguably Beck's best offerings, although Jeff Beck's Guitar Shop is right up there :D--> Oakspear "We...know how cruel the truth often is, and we wonder whether delusion is not more consoling" Henri Poincare

Although having a minority opinion at GreaseSpot can be somewhat hazardous at times, we still can retain out anonymity if we choose, and don't have to tolerate spit flecks in our faces or uninvited visits to our homes. The number of things that we were encouraged to not have an opinion on is amazing. I'm not one of these people who normally have a problem speaking up in public, but in twi I gave up that aspect of myself to keep the peace. The opportunity to freely discuss aspects of our "Wayness", including the various doctrines that were taught is invalubale. Oakspear (actual friend of the real-life Abigail)

When I did go group witnessing, I never had any trouble talking to anyone. I'm one of those people who can walk up to any person from any background and start a conversation with them. Part of that comes from some of the jobs I've had: selling vacuums door-to-door for a short time; coordinating crews of kids selling newspaper subscriptions; countless school and Boy & Girl Scut fund-raisers; part comes from a naturally outgoing personality. The problem was that, even though I could talk to anybody, and could get to "The Word" with great facility, it was a big game to me. I would make the contact, cover the assigned subject, invite them to fellowship...but I didn't care. All I wanted was to cover the bases so "leadership" would stay off my butt. The times when I did care was when I actually liked it: When I would stop by the bar on the way home from work and end up speaking the exact right words that someone needed to hear The time on the way to Twig when I saw a guy walking down the street and just knew that I should invite him. I jumped out of the car after telling my son to take the wheel. My other son and I ran down the street, invited the guy to come with us, just as my son pulled up to the curb with my car. "Planned" outreach, lists, all that crap, just took the joy out of it Oakspear "We...know how cruel the truth often is, and we wonder whether delusion is not more consoling" Henri Poincare

My last year and a half in I started working on Saturdays so I didn't have to make excuses anymore. Oakspear "We...know how cruel the truth often is, and we wonder whether delusion is not more consoling" Henri Poincare

Satriani!!??? Sounds like a great concert, and ya gotta love that fretless bass playin' ...and since you mentioned Jaco, this morning's Tom's Breakfast CD Pick is Jaco Pastorius' eponymous album. Another sad loss to the music world when he bought it. Oakspear "We...know how cruel the truth often is, and we wonder whether delusion is not more consoling" Henri Poincare

Regarding The Thirteenth Tribe: All Koestler really proved was that there was a tribe/nation called the Khazars who converted en masse to Judaism in the 8th (?) century. His documentary evidence is pretty firm on those points. What he does not prove is that the Khazars are the sole descendents of the Askenazim. His theory that the Khazars migrated to eastern Europe to become the "cradle of eastern Jewry" is a supposition. Read his book and you'll see that he makes some logical and thought through projections of what could have happened, but doesn't prove it. I wonder if you could ever prove something like that, absent clear and continuous written recors. One thing is clear: there are references to Jews being in all parts of the former Roman empire continuously from biblical times to modern times. As a group, Jews tended to be urban dwellers, and as the most visible non-Christians, tended to stand out as a community. Another thing, regarding language. Although Yiddish became the lingua franca of eastern european Jews, most educated Jews retained a facility in Hebrew, in order to read the scriptures. There is absolutely no evidence of any aspects of a Khazar language surviving into modern times. It's also hard to see how Wierwille could have made some of the statements that he did if he had actually read Koestler. Did he just skim the book? Did he not understand what Koestler was saying? Or did he willfully misrepresent? When I finally read The Thirteenth Tribe in the early 90's, I was amazed at how it did not fully support Wierwille's conclusions, even though Wierwille cited it as if it did. Oakspear "We...know how cruel the truth often is, and we wonder whether delusion is not more consoling" Henri Poincare

"I wanta squash my meat in the mud of Wilson Picket" Are those the words? Oakspear "We...know how cruel the truth often is, and we wonder whether delusion is not more consoling" Henri Poincare

Sogwap: That wasn't weird what you just described? Oakspear "We...know how cruel the truth often is, and we wonder whether delusion is not more consoling" Henri Poincare

George: I always wanted to be Spider-Man Oakspear "We...know how cruel the truth often is, and we wonder whether delusion is not more consoling" Henri Poincare

A La Pro: Glad you had a good time! Thanks for the Greatr Big Sea songs that you sent me. Tonight's Tom's Bedtime CD Pick Best of Foghat No comments, I just like 'em! :P--> Oakspear "We...know how cruel the truth often is, and we wonder whether delusion is not more consoling" Henri Poincare