Oakspear

Mike: Are you also unfamiliar with the section of PFAL where Wierwille states that if a man believes that he will die within a certain time frame that God would have to rewrite all his laws to not accomodate him? What promise of God guarantees that people will die if they belive to do so? Oakspear "We...know how cruel the truth often is, and we wonder whether delusion is not more consoling" Henri Poincare

Somebody mentioned being in the soup....what kind of soup? I'm partial to New England Clam Chowder muhself... Oakspear "We...know how cruel the truth often is, and we wonder whether delusion is not more consoling" Henri Poincare

How about where Wierwille claims that "Godhead" means "head God"? (my apologies if this has been discussed before) I'll look up the Greek word and the definition later, but I recall that it means something like "divine", or "deriving from God". There is nothing in the Greek word to indicate that the "head" portion of the word Godhead means chief or paramount. In fact even the 16th century use of the suffix "head" indicates source, e.g. "the fountainhead of truth. Actual error?... Oakspear "We...know how cruel the truth often is, and we wonder whether delusion is not more consoling" Henri Poincare

Nice to see you back Rafael :D--> Oakspear "We...know how cruel the truth often is, and we wonder whether delusion is not more consoling" Henri Poincare

Happy Birthday! take it easy on the margaritas Oakspear "We...know how cruel the truth often is, and we wonder whether delusion is not more consoling" Henri Poincare

The supposed places where you assert that Wierwille claimed that some of his own works were God-breathed have been ably addressed previously by others. Subtle? The things that you see, Mike, are only there because you want them to be there. Reading what's written without searching for arcane hidden meanings yields results quite different from the cabala that you're putting together. Oakspear "We...know how cruel the truth often is, and we wonder whether delusion is not more consoling" Henri Poincare

Wolf: Pretty good for a second best effort :D--> My main beef with the "Mikean Heresy" ;)--> is not the position itself, but the utter lack of foundation thereof. If Mike or anyone else wants to believe that Wierwille is the fourth person in the then inaptly named trinity (previous line adapted from Douglas Adams) I don't care; if anyone wants to believe that there really is a sun god, or a fertility godess, I still don't care. What I do have an issue with is the lack of logic that supports the "PFAL as Scripture" theory. The guy who wrote PFAL didn't claim it, and most ( an overwhelming majority most) didn't either. The theory rests upon a rat's nest of illogic and twisting of the plain meaning of words. Thanks to all who are exposing this ridiculous theory for what it is...nonsense. Oakspear "We...know how cruel the truth often is, and we wonder whether delusion is not more consoling" Henri Poincare

Mike: I think it makes sense for Bullinger to have had assistants or apprentices or whatever helping him, too. However, there appears to be no evidence to support this, and EW the poster appears to have evidence to the contrary. Oakspear "We...know how cruel the truth often is, and we wonder whether delusion is not more consoling" Henri Poincare

The poster EW Bullinger based his post about the original EW Bullinger on research that he did on the man's life. Mike based his post on what he calls TWI Verbal Tradition which he elsewhere derides as untrustworthy. I guess stuff you heard from the OLG's that later caused TWI to fall is sound when it backs up your opinion. --> Oakspear "We...know how cruel the truth often is, and we wonder whether delusion is not more consoling" Henri Poincare

?¥µéü?????ã? Don'tcha see it peepul? Oakspear "We...know how cruel the truth often is, and we wonder whether delusion is not more consoling" Henri Poincare

She and Ronnie were assigned to Kentucky in the 80's and were still there in the mid 90's last I checked. They've been out since the POP reading as far as I know. Oakspear "We...know how cruel the truth often is, and we wonder whether delusion is not more consoling" Henri Poincare

Mike has used a portion of one of my quotes to back up his position. I just want to make it clear that I DO NOT agree with Mike. Here is my original quote: The part that he leaves out follows the BUT Anyone who has read even a few of my posts knows already that I don't agree with Mikey; I haven't yet accused him of being insane or under the influence of spirits, but IMHO, he's WRONG!!! Oakspear "We...know how cruel the truth often is, and we wonder whether delusion is not more consoling" Henri Poincare

IF Wierwille was given PFAL by revelation, then it is not idolatry to follow everything that was in PFAL. IF Wierwille was speaking by revelation when he told us to "master PFAL" then it would behoove us to master it. BUT... The evidence that Wierwille was doing God's will, and that PFAL is the "Word of God" for our times is slim at best; but there is compelling evidence that PFAL was largely plagarized, often without an understanding of what was plagarized, nor how parts taken from different sources contradicted each other. Basing one's belief that Wierwille's writings are "God's Word" simply because Wierwille said so is circular reasoning. Basing that belief on so-called hidden meanings in passages where Wierwille clearly says that his writings are not equivalent to God's Word is fanatasy. Oakspear "We...know how cruel the truth often is, and we wonder whether delusion is not more consoling" Henri Poincare

On the last page Mike writes: So Wierwille writes that his own writings are in the same boat as other men, but that PFAL isn't REALLY his own. --> Oakspear "We...know how cruel the truth often is, and we wonder whether delusion is not more consoling" Henri Poincare

Steve, Mark, Wolf: Thank you for your recent efforts at refuting the "Mikean Heresy" :D--> Since Mike claims that the only infallible piece of writing is PFAL, appeals to other sources, even versions of the bible, are ignored if they disagree with PFAL. You guys have done a great job of refuting Mike using Wierwille's own words in the "holy writ" itself: the PFAL book! I almost wish that I kept my copy of PFAL so that I could join in the "fun". You guys rock! Oakspear "We...know how cruel the truth often is, and we wonder whether delusion is not more consoling" Henri Poincare

Or late...I'm not sure :D--> Oakspear "We...know how cruel the truth often is, and we wonder whether delusion is not more consoling" Henri Poincare

Corps time is what?...14, 15 hundred years early? Oakspear "We...know how cruel the truth often is, and we wonder whether delusion is not more consoling" Henri Poincare

AZ: Happy Birthday bro' Sorry the snow derailed my visit this spring May you enjoy many, many more birthdays in as much happiness as you can stand :D--> (and I still haven't seen Dogma :P--> Oakspear "We...know how cruel the truth often is, and we wonder whether delusion is not more consoling" Henri Poincare

Ubiquity is ubiquitous piety superfluous You don't need a blunderbus To sound wise and mysterious like the sage Confucious this stuff is much too serious and often it doth weary us when it's supercilious Oakspear "We...know how cruel the truth often is, and we wonder whether delusion is not more consoling" Henri Poincare [This message was edited by Oakspear on June 14, 2003 at 21:48.]

I'm going to bed and have to work tomorrow...don't youse guys get all crazy while I'm gone! Oakspear "We...know how cruel the truth often is, and we wonder whether delusion is not more consoling" Henri Poincare

We all had our own "personal" TWI's that had more to do with with who "got us in the Word" than who the "leaders" were. There were good times, good people, and great godly things happening...more in spite of "the Way tree" than because of it Oakspear "We...know how cruel the truth often is, and we wonder whether delusion is not more consoling" Henri Poincare

Happy Birthday! (Sorry, no songs, no earrings, no butts ) Oakspear (one week short of 45)

Oh, horse.... Mike. Anyone who fought against the abuses was driven out, both under Wierwille and Martindale. The record is pretty clear (TWI1, TWI2, TWI3 thread for starters) I'll grant that for many, the abuses are seen with 20/20 hindsight, and were missed as they were occurring, but many others spoke up and were thrown out on their ears...it was Wierwille's game all along. Oakspear "We...know how cruel the truth often is, and we wonder whether delusion is not more consoling" Henri Poincare

Rascal is not defining herself by what she hates, she is pointing it out and identifying it...two different things. She is a wife and a mother (of a large brood, btw) and therefore has plenty to occupy her life besides her opinion of Wierwille. Rascal's attitude toward "Doctor" is only sinful, etc. if he was "The Man of God", which there is scant evidense for, and which she does not believe ( as I do not) . You, of course, are entitled to your opinion. You can only be "thankful for how God has materfully arranged for us to hear the Word" via Wierwille and PFAL if you believe that God did in fact do the arranging. There is plenty of evidense to indicate that God did not have anything to do with it, but that Wierwille copied the works of others. By saying this, I am not trying to change your mind, which is, as you have said, made up on the subject, just to put things in perspective regarding those of us who don't see things the way you do Oakspear "We...know how cruel the truth often is, and we wonder whether delusion is not more consoling" Henri Poincare

One of the great things about this thread is that many people who were actually there in the supposed "good old days" weigh in with their own perceptions of that time. It wasn't all sweetness and light and good times and the love of God. Occssionally someone pops up and makes the assetion that Martindale ruined it all, but that Wierwille was a true man of God. The whole picturte is a little more complicated than that. Oakspear "We...know how cruel the truth often is, and we wonder whether delusion is not more consoling" Henri Poincare